pass-through vs. internally expended energy?
01-10-2017, 02:37 PM
#31
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: ****ifornia
Posts: 5,052
Sounds to me like a theory made up to promote the sale of firearms chambered for cartridges too weak to achieve pass through or someone trying to justify why he doesn't like shooting a 7mm Rem Mag. 
I still think that if you are using an appropriately designed hunting bullet, a round that hits the front shoulder at 2000 ft lbs and the far shoulder at 1000 ft lbs is hitting that animal harder and more effectively than a round that hits the front shoulder at 2000 ft lbs and doesn't even make it all the way to the far shoulder.
I still think that if you are using an appropriately designed hunting bullet, a round that hits the front shoulder at 2000 ft lbs and the far shoulder at 1000 ft lbs is hitting that animal harder and more effectively than a round that hits the front shoulder at 2000 ft lbs and doesn't even make it all the way to the far shoulder.
Google ballistics gel tests between a Berger and a Barnes and you'll see what they mean by "expelling all energy" inside of an animal instead of the tree behind it.
Both work, both kill animals every year...more then one way to skin a cat.
01-10-2017, 02:39 PM
#32
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MICHIGAN
Posts: 2,568
Kind of tickles me so many want a pass thru on a deer so they can track it. I my self like a bullet that does the job on the deer so you don't have to track it you can watch it drop. Maybe travel 30 yards at the most.
Same goes for a coyote I want one hole to sew up in the hide not two holes. Let that bullet tear the guts up lungs heart and all between.
Al
Same goes for a coyote I want one hole to sew up in the hide not two holes. Let that bullet tear the guts up lungs heart and all between.
Al
01-10-2017, 02:40 PM
#33
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
Not a gimmic or theory IPSC...Just plain old physics. When a bullet opens up, it has more surface area. Energy doesn't "go away" but "dissipates". All that energy from momentum is meeting resistance. This causes the transfer of that energy into the animal in the form of "energy waves", also known as a "temporary wound channel", causing some permanent damage and some temporary displacement according to which organs are in the path (some have a lot of pliability and some have less so damge varies). According to many variables including, but not limited to, weight of bullet, initial size (both diameter of total bullet as well as meplat), speed of opening, size of opening, petal shear, retained weight, and of course speed at impact, you can have massive damage or mediocre damage. You want, for the most part anyway, to have a greater portion of that energy dumped into the animal for internal damage. As I said previously, I like 2 holes just in case you have hit one of those extra tough, don't know they are dead, animals that just absolutely refuse to go down even with an obliterated heart. Been there, done that. So I like deep penetrating bullets that, while still dumping a ton of energy into the animal, still has enough to pass through.
01-10-2017, 03:16 PM
#34
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,359
Not a gimmic or theory IPSC...Just plain old physics. When a bullet opens up, it has more surface area. Energy doesn't "go away" but "dissipates". All that energy from momentum is meeting resistance. This causes the transfer of that energy into the animal in the form of "energy waves", also known as a "temporary wound channel", causing some permanent damage and some temporary displacement according to which organs are in the path (some have a lot of pliability and some have less so damge varies). According to many variables including, but not limited to, weight of bullet, initial size (both diameter of total bullet as well as meplat), speed of opening, size of opening, petal shear, retained weight, and of course speed at impact, you can have massive damage or mediocre damage. You want, for the most part anyway, to have a greater portion of that energy dumped into the animal for internal damage. As I said previously, I like 2 holes just in case you have hit one of those extra tough, don't know they are dead, animals that just absolutely refuse to go down even with an obliterated heart. Been there, done that. So I like deep penetrating bullets that, while still dumping a ton of energy into the animal, still has enough to pass through.
I'd rather they error on the side of pass through myself and mine do if I shoot straight broadside but quartering I get a lot of bullets stopped by the far hide.
Of course the animals range from 50lbs to 275lbs so thats also a factor. Its the big boys with any quarter at all that I often don't get through the far hide.
The buck I shot this year had the ole far side lump with just a little quarter and no significant bone hit. He was a puddle inside and didn't go out of sight but I'd still rather they cut the slits just a little shallower....not much but just a little.
Last edited by rockport; 01-10-2017 at 03:20 PM.
01-10-2017, 03:42 PM
#35
Spike
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 30
alley I am in kinda same boat as you. if a deer runs after the shot in my eyes it is a bad shot. I cant stand having to track a deer after a rifle shot. a lot of people seem to treat hunting like playing pool. always planning next step. what tracking job will have to be done. (bow on the other hand is little different but it does keep me from bow hunting in evenings because of it)
01-10-2017, 06:29 PM
#36
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
alley I am in kinda same boat as you. if a deer runs after the shot in my eyes it is a bad shot. I cant stand having to track a deer after a rifle shot. a lot of people seem to treat hunting like playing pool. always planning next step. what tracking job will have to be done. (bow on the other hand is little different but it does keep me from bow hunting in evenings because of it)
To put it bluntly, you couldn't be more wrong. Those that you have observed "planning" a tracking job are doing exactly what they are supposed to do! My shot choice being high shoulder USUALLY eliminates tracking jobs since it USUALLY results in a DRT but the fact is, no one is perfect. I always observe the animals position at the time of the shot and try to figure which way it will go if I don't drop it in it's tracks. That's what any hunter worth his salt will do. You should take notes from those you observe planning a track job and you should also learn to get over your dislike for blood trailing. Guys that can't blood trail a hit deer don't belong in the woods shooting at them with ANYTHING.
01-10-2017, 06:37 PM
#37
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
Unfortunately a lot of those bullets stop at the far hide when they are designed to give you the best of both worlds. I get a lot of that.
I'd rather they error on the side of pass through myself and mine do if I shoot straight broadside but quartering I get a lot of bullets stopped by the far hide.
Of course the animals range from 50lbs to 275lbs so thats also a factor. Its the big boys with any quarter at all that I often don't get through the far hide.
The buck I shot this year had the ole far side lump with just a little quarter and no significant bone hit. He was a puddle inside and didn't go out of sight but I'd still rather they cut the slits just a little shallower....not much but just a little.
I'd rather they error on the side of pass through myself and mine do if I shoot straight broadside but quartering I get a lot of bullets stopped by the far hide.
Of course the animals range from 50lbs to 275lbs so thats also a factor. Its the big boys with any quarter at all that I often don't get through the far hide.
The buck I shot this year had the ole far side lump with just a little quarter and no significant bone hit. He was a puddle inside and didn't go out of sight but I'd still rather they cut the slits just a little shallower....not much but just a little.
01-10-2017, 07:14 PM
#38
Spike
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 30
You must be new to hunting. I've taken every animal in the deer family and can tell you with no uncertainty whatsoever that EVERY animal reacts differently to rifle hits. The ONLY absolute DRT (dead right there) shot is brain/spinal interruption. Period. I've had them drop on the spot and run for 100+yards with obliterated heart and lungs. I had a little tiny Doe in Kentucky, live weight was around 125-135 pounds, hit with a 180gr CoreLoct from a .30-06 at 58 yards, run 160 yards. Got to her, opened her up, lungs were totaled, heart had a hole in it that I could get 3 of my huge sausage fingers in and the off side shoulder busted into several pieces.
To put it bluntly, you couldn't be more wrong. Those that you have observed "planning" a tracking job are doing exactly what they are supposed to do! My shot choice being high shoulder USUALLY eliminates tracking jobs since it USUALLY results in a DRT but the fact is, no one is perfect. I always observe the animals position at the time of the shot and try to figure which way it will go if I don't drop it in it's tracks. That's what any hunter worth his salt will do. You should take notes from those you observe planning a track job and you should also learn to get over your dislike for blood trailing. Guys that can't blood trail a hit deer don't belong in the woods shooting at them with ANYTHING.
To put it bluntly, you couldn't be more wrong. Those that you have observed "planning" a tracking job are doing exactly what they are supposed to do! My shot choice being high shoulder USUALLY eliminates tracking jobs since it USUALLY results in a DRT but the fact is, no one is perfect. I always observe the animals position at the time of the shot and try to figure which way it will go if I don't drop it in it's tracks. That's what any hunter worth his salt will do. You should take notes from those you observe planning a track job and you should also learn to get over your dislike for blood trailing. Guys that can't blood trail a hit deer don't belong in the woods shooting at them with ANYTHING.
New to hunting not accurate but have only hunted in southeast.
I explained in earlier post I am 100% in favor of shooting neck shots. I choose to make that shot as they fall where you shoot them.
You stated guys that can't blood trail a deer doesn't belong in the woods.
I never said I didn't know how and Haven't recovered wounded deer. You assumed.
I stated I don't like having to blood trail a deer.
So before you go bashing someone for something make sure your facts are accurate and not speculated.
01-10-2017, 07:20 PM
#39
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,359
Go through that a lot as well Rock. The large diameter of slugs that we have to use here have a HUGE meplat typically so that is a ton of initial resistance right from the get go. I remember some of the old "punkinballs" from days past that had a harder alloy, almost like a hard cast. Those puppies would truck through a deer and barely even slow down!! Those were some shoulder busting slugs.
Its kind of like broadheads....the obsession with maximum damage is starting to rob peter to pay paul.
Last edited by rockport; 01-10-2017 at 07:33 PM.
01-11-2017, 02:22 AM
#40
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MICHIGAN
Posts: 2,568
Neighbor came to ask permission to recover deer they shoot in a wide open corn field, then run to my place.
As far as I know they have never recovered a deer they claim to have shot that runs to my place. Oh they are shooting 12ga shot guns with slugs.
Any way he said if I ever needed help looking for a deer he was just next door.
I said thanks but I don't take iffy shots, and my deer do not run far at all that are hit with the buck hammers I use at present in my tiny 20ga.
My 2015 buck went farther than any other I have shot with that tiny 20ga. Scratched my head over that 35 yard run for a little bit, then reran the shot thru my head and it was the angle. just clipped the tip of bottom of the heart hardly did any damage to the lungs at all.
Read Muzzle loader forum a while back and people were dising the Hornady XTP pistol bullets in a muzzle loader because they came apart. Way I see that is you have a big chunk of lead plowing thru the body cavity and a smaller chunk of copper doing the same thing IN THE BODY CAVITY.
Al
As far as I know they have never recovered a deer they claim to have shot that runs to my place. Oh they are shooting 12ga shot guns with slugs.
Any way he said if I ever needed help looking for a deer he was just next door.
I said thanks but I don't take iffy shots, and my deer do not run far at all that are hit with the buck hammers I use at present in my tiny 20ga.
My 2015 buck went farther than any other I have shot with that tiny 20ga. Scratched my head over that 35 yard run for a little bit, then reran the shot thru my head and it was the angle. just clipped the tip of bottom of the heart hardly did any damage to the lungs at all.
Read Muzzle loader forum a while back and people were dising the Hornady XTP pistol bullets in a muzzle loader because they came apart. Way I see that is you have a big chunk of lead plowing thru the body cavity and a smaller chunk of copper doing the same thing IN THE BODY CAVITY.
Al