Heavy for caliber for close range shots
 

New to the forum here, 30+ years hunting experience under my belt and still learning. So to my question:
I recently acquired a NIB X-Bolt 7 RM. I want to carry it this year for no other reason than to change things up a bit. However, my hunting involves heavy woods where 75% of my shots are sub 100 yards, with the majority falling between 30-70 yards. So with these short distances and 7RM velocities, would a heavy for caliber bullet be a wise choice to maintain the bullets integrity at high impact speed? I've read a lot that whitetail don't offer enough "resistance" to expand heavier bullets, but I don't know if I'm on board with that.
I don't reload, and I'm looking at 175gr fusions, but any suggestions are welcomed.
Thanks

My ranges are from 15 yards to about 50 or 60 yards and I use a 45-70 with a 325 grn hornady lever evolution cartridge. I aim for the crease behind the front shoulder and the damage to the meat is no more than my .308 Winchester with a 150 grain Remington coreloct round. It does make soup of the heart and lungs though.

His is a totally different situation though Oldtimr. Your 45-70 is big and slow (I like those too) but his is/can be medium weight and still fast. Hunter,,,welcome to the site first off. As to your question, it really has little to do with the weight of the bullet as it does towards the construction of the bullet. Bigger/heavier doesn't necessarily mean tougher. More often than not the bigger bullet slows the velocities down enough for the bullet to hold together better. I take it you don't roll your own ammo so what you need to do is search for good hard bullets. Anything with a monolithic bullet would serve well more than likely. Those fusions are SUPPOSED to hold together well at short range impact velocities but I haven't personally tested them so I can't speak to the honesty of that. Barnes has a cartridge loaded with their TSX bullet that does hold together exceptionally well. If your rifle will shoot it accurately, that would be the first round I would try. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/15...free-box-of-20 there's you a link for it. 160 grain is a pretty good weight for the 7mmRM.

My suggestion is that 150 grain standard ammo should be all you need. Federal Power Shock, Remington Core Lokt or Winchester Power Points should still handle the situation from any angle. Heaviest bullet I would go to is the 154 gr. Hornady interlock American Whitetail ammo.

I use the same ammo for deer and elk. I have a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06 and shoot a Barnes TSX 180gr. Have killed many whitetails with it and it mushrooms nicely. Have found many bullets in the opposite hide.

I also have a Weatherby in 300 WM. I shoot a Nosler Accubond 180gr out of that. Killed 1 whitetail with it. Much more energy, entered front right shoulder and traveled length of body to lodge in back left quarter. I would guess your 7 mag would have similar results.

First welcome aboard Hunter! I have not hunted Whitetails with my 7MM RM for the last 10 years! My last experience with the 7MM RM was two bucks with 150 gr. bullets.
The first was dead within sight, but no expansion at about 40 yards. I probably would have had a hard time recovering him if he had not expired within 20 yards of the shot.
Second, was about 80 yards with the same, 150 gr. bullets. This buck ran for over 100 yards, with no blood trail due to again, no expansion. I recovered the buck, probably by pure luck.
Looking back at those situations, I have concluded:
1. High double lung shot, internal bleeding due to shot location. (Deer ribs and lungs don't provide enough resistance to expand heavy bullets!
2. Plain old, wrong bullets for the job!
I believe the 7MM RM, using lighter, 139/140 gr. bullets, designed for more expansion would make excellent Whitetail medicine!

If you do some looking you may find some of the Barnes original bullets in 7mm that weigh 195 gr. I laid in a few boxes a few years ago and with then you can slow the 7mm Mag down to 7x57 velocities and those 195s cut a big hole.

If you can't find any Barnes you can always load a 175 at minimal velocity and if you use a standard soft point like a Hornady or Remington you should be ok. I experimented for years with my 7mm Mag and I finally settled on the 160 gr Nosler Accubond as my go to bullet. Of course all the above works if you handload which you say you don't.

If I was you I'd get a box of plain Rem Corelokts and Win Power Points in 150 gr or 175 gr and see which one shoots best in your rifle and then I'd go out and slay whitetails. Whitetails don't require premium bullets and those old fashioned bullets have killed millions of them.

Other considerations than just expansion. The lighter bullets tend to deflect easier from twigs or even weeds and tall grass. Not an every time type thing, but it has happened to me often enough to be a trend.

I tried the 150's and seemed to have more tumblers that tore up a lot of meat and I had more strikes off from where I was aiming. Seemed to happen when I was shooting through grass or light brush (fence rows). Went to 180's and had a lot more through and throughs, hole in hole out and the game wanted to bolt farther.

I finally split the difference and have been using 165 or 167's. No bullet IMO is going to perform well in all situations. The Core Lokt I use don't expand enough IMO but do tend to hold together better if there is something between me and my Deer.

I've been shooting a lot of neck shots, expansion doesn't seem to matter much. The hydro static shock seems to put them in a pile most every time.

I tried Silver tips for awhile (just in case a Hog came by), but seemed to have the bullet come apart from grass or whatnot on a regular basis and my Deer ended up looking like I used a hand grenade on it.

I use my 35 Remington in heavy brush, big and slow seems to work out better.

Thanks for all the information! My goal with heavier bullets was to slow it down a little, but from what I've learned here I should be ok with bullets in the 150 grain +/- a little...I think I'll give the fusion 150 grains a try or I'm also hearing good things about Win Power Max Bonded.

Hunter you should save your money and not worry about buying cartridges loaded with premium bullets for whitetails. Standard Winchester or Remington cartridges will do just fine in the 139-150 range.
Heavier bullets in a given caliber tend to be designed with thicker jackets for deeper penetration on larger game. Deer don't need them.
And don't get caught up in the fictional brush bucking theory because it just ain't so. Any, and I mean any bullet will deflect if it hits a twig. In fact I've read the in actuality that faster rotating bullets recover quicker than the so called brush buckers like the 35 Rem etc. But they still deflect and may miss or worse, wound an animal without a recovery.

All I can attest to is my experiences. The heavier bullets tend to deflect less (maybe they deform less?), they seem to keep there integrity better if they hit something, (Quote "Heavier bullets in a given caliber tend to be designed with thicker jackets for deeper penetration on larger game. Deer don't need them"). And they often seem to expand less/slower than lighter bullets. This isn't all bullets, just the ones I've tried. And also some bullets designed for quick expansion seem to come apart easier if they hit something between the rifle and the target.

It also depends on what you hit, I don't shoot if it is a impossible shot, but a little tall grass, a tall green weed or a twig is enough sometimes.

The larger mid velocity calibers most often have heavier bullets, the weight seems to help them deflect less.

I have caught many Deer over the years using the tall grass, that the mower misses, next to a barbed wire fence. They seem to like using it as cover to sneak across open areas. I've shot through a wisp of grass or tall weeds and had some bullets come apart, the Deer ended up looking like I'd used a shotgun. I had one Deer that looked like road kill. It doesn't happen often, but often enough to be a consideration.

It has happened too many times to be fiction. I've also had numerous hole in hole out with no expansion, the majority with heavier bullets. But I sure haven't tried every possible bullet available. I Mostly shoot Core Lokt now, a reasonable compromise IMO.

It is often a compromise and no one bullet is going to perform best in all situations.

Another consideration is what your rifle prefers. Mine prefers a 165- 167 gr pointed boat tail. Yours may like something else.

Don't know about the "grass/brush bucking" stuff but I do know that the 7mmRM with just your standard cup and core bullet can and often do blow up pretty badly on close range shoulder hits on whitetail. Just seen the results all too often to deny that it does happen. But such is the problem when you over gun yourself for your quarry. Unless you plan on extended, over 400 yard, ranges a magnum cartridge rifle is just overkill for whitetail. You will experience bullet failure much to often at close range. It's just the nature of the beast. Are premium bullets necessary? Not really, as long as you don't mind tons of meat damage from bullets blowing all to hell at close range.

As far as the grass and brush bucking, big and slow bullets like a 30-30 or a .45-70 have a tendency to overcome grass and twigs a bit better than your fast movers. But that is NOT the reason they are called "brush guns". The term brush gun comes from people using a rifle that is shorter, more maneuverable, and you aren't afraid to get it a bit roughed up from traveling through the heavy stuff. It has absolutely nothing to do with the caliber although brush guns are most generally thought of as 30-30, 444, .45-70, 35rem and mostly they are lever actions. Mostly a cheaper cost rifle for use out to 150 or so yards.

There you have it! Your description is exactly why they are called brush guns, short and quick handling, not because they can plow through brush and still be on the mark. I saw a demonstration once on TV where they showed that a lighter faster bullet actually did better shooting through brush than a 30-30 and a .35 Rem. In fact, I would not have shot at all in the situations shown in the demo. I do not believe in shoot and hope or a magic bullet.

I had a little 2 inch sapling that a buck was standing right behind (by right behind I mean like an inch or 2) that my crosshair covered. I shot dead center through that sapling with a 240gr corelockt bullet. (was my .444 marlin) Buck fell over one way, sapling fell over the other :D Blew through the sapling, still hit right where I was aiming (high shoulder) and took out the spine. Was right at 50 yards. Needless to say I was surprised.

If I had to guess Oldtimr, Id have to say the lighter faster bullet did better because of flatter trajectory so probably flew the path with less contact in the flight path than a rainbow big and slow slug. But if a little one does make contact, especially at the beginning of the speed curve, they have much more chance of going off course or even blowing up. But I agree that choosing a clear shot lane make much more sense that trying to "thread the needle".

I had a twig smaller than a pencil deflect a 300 gr bullet from my 375 H&H mag in Cameroon once. Cost me a huge Western Hartebeest bull. If an elephant gun can be deflected then anything can. After the shot at that bull we saw the twig fall, cut cleanly by the bullet. I knew exactly where I was holding and that bullet never touched a hair on that bull.

My 7MM RM is a Sako A7 Stainless

I use Hornady 139gr. SST's

I have a 7wsm. My son shot a small buck at about 15 yards with a 150gr fusion bullet. You have made a good choice.

Therein lies the key super_hunt! (by right behind I mean like an inch or 2)
ANY bullet, no matter the caliber or weight WILL BE DEFLECTED!
If you are familiar with angles and trajectory, you should know that at 2 inches, the deflection will be at a minimum, and still well within the kill zone.
Add a foot or more to that deflection and you have at best a "clean miss," or worse, a wounded animal to track!
No caliber or weight can defy physics! Waiting for a better shot opportunity is the ONLY choice! "It was the opportunity of a lifetime!" Is still a piz-poor excuse for taking an obviously risky shot!

Reading is fundamental Jag. Did you fail to see that I wrote "2" sapling that my crosshair covered up". I didn't see the thing! I know ballistics and how bullets travel pretty well and no if I had known that sapling was there I wouldn't have taken that shot. There isn't a bowhunter or rifle hunter out there that has spent any time in the woods, especially as long as my well over 60 years in them, that hasn't hit a little twig or heavy grass that they just flat out couldn't see. Now if it's a physics lesson you seek, big and slow bullets can and will tend to continue on their trajectory after contact with a piece of grass or a small dry twig more so than a small and fast bullet. The reason is MOMENTUM. They may get knocked off their axis and begin tumbling but they will continue on a straighter path than a light fast mover simply because of the weight. Just like if you hit a large animal in the head with a big slug verses a small fast mover. The small fast mover may deflect because of the angle of impact whereas if you hit at the same angle with a slow and heavy, MOMENTUM will allow for less deflection caused by angle. Take a hogs scull for instance. Some are under the false impression that a hog skull is thick and tough when in reality it is quite thin. The reason frontal head shots fail so often on hogs, especially from fast moving light bullets, is because a hogs scull is at a very steep angle. I've seen a lot of hogs "creased" by .223's as well as a few from my own 6.8spc. But my .458 SOCOM has yet to "crease". It does the Hulk smash :D Now, I'm not saying one should try to shoot through heavy cover with ANY caliber/cartridge but when it comes to the physics of a bullet, your heavier bullets stand more of a fighting chance than a light bullet if they do contact that unseen twig.

Chill a little Super! :s2:
The last part of my post was not directed at you personally! Looking at how I wrote it, I can see the implication though, sorry, my bad!
Also, I am not trying to judge anyone for unforeseen accidents, chet happens!
I once accidentally killed 2 deer with my 7MM RM. I waited until the deer in the back was well clear of the front deer. At 150 yards and no downward angle, I shot, killed and recovered the first deer, not realizing that I hit the second one too! A few days later I found the second deer while investigating Buzzards! To this day, I am at a loss to explain exactly how the bullet deflected through deer #1 at such an angle to take out deer #2!
I do despise the intentional taking of risky shots though!

Yep chit happens constantly. I've had perfectly broadside shots with exits out the rear hindquarter. Granted every one of them was from lighter weighted bullets like in the 120gr range. Deer bones are harder/stronger than some give them credit for. That'd be why they make fantastic jack knife handles!

Or trade that 7RM for a 308 and use 180 gr. bullets. And then there is that excuse to buy another rifle. My experience with high velocity at shorter ranges is not lack of expansion but excessive damage, shots in the brush are often not perfectly broadside and the time you have to shoot is usually short.