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Ridge Runner 11-21-2015 05:35 AM

question for all members
 
I don't know some may call it a rant, here goes

I post some about killing deer at long range, its legal, I enjoy it, I do have a pretty good grasp on what I'm doing, took me over 20 years to become comfortable doing it, spent a lot of money, and countless hours preparing, learning, getting efficient at it.
for years I sat on the same rock and killed way more deer at 2 to 80 yards than most folks can comprehend. Why do folks scorn it?
why am I an unethical slob because I know exactly where my bullet will hit 8 football fields away if the conditions are to my liking?
I once started a thread about a kill beyond 1K, I was constantly explaining over and over why I took the shot what I went through as far as variables to make sure I was right, yet still 23 pages of its not ethical, too many variables. I had the thread deleted because those who know the least about what I do think they know the most.
so why is LR hunting not ethical?
If I can get a legitimate reason I will respond, but the typical reasons which most talk about I will not address such as
you don't know the wind (yes I do I measure it)
you don't know the wind over there (yes I do I measure it here and compare it to there)
the deer don't know your there (if they knew you were there at 50 yards would you get a shot?)
so have at it
RR

kidoggy 11-21-2015 05:47 AM

my thoughts are , different strokes for different folks.I am not one to seek others approval.

for me it all comes down to knowing what you and your weapon are capable of. and if folks don't like it ,they can go pound sand.
if you are making those shots, who cares what anyone else thinks?that said if you are wounding animals all over the mountain(which I UNDERSTAND YOU ARE NOT DOING)I would advise against it.

I generally pass on long shots (generally 400 yds or so is as far as I will go). I am confident I can make the long shots, I just prefer to get close. just more fun (in my mind) and I like the challenge of stalking close. like I said different strokes.


I had to laugh at the , deer don't know your there, thing. I figure if the deer don't know I am there ,I did it correctly.

Champlain Islander 11-21-2015 05:55 AM

I think it is a topic worthy of discussion. I remember seeing some similar subjects go out of control and threads frozen. My hope is that we can all post and learn about this subject without seeing the thread go down the crapper. For the record... I am not in favor of hunters taking unethical low percentage shots. My own personal limits are right around 225 yds since that is the longest of all the kills I have had in my long hunting life and the limit I have practiced at the range. I mostly shoot 30-06, know the ballistics and feel that with a proper rest and wind conditions I can hit vitals at that yardage every time. I see nothing wrong with someone more skilled in shooting with better equipment to extend that range out to whatever is their 100% shot. The flip side of the argument is some hunters feel that their own goal is to close the gap and get as close to their quarry as possible. Both sides of the discussion require skill and planning to accomplish the job. I can respect both points of view. I feel at least in my case I would have an easier time getting close and have used that standard in my hunting life.

Bocajnala 11-21-2015 06:03 AM

:popcorn: I know lots of guys (not most guys on this website, but lots of hunters that do it this way) that shoot their rifle 3 times on Thanksgiving day to make sure it's "on" and then go out and shoot at deer. I'd take RR's method over most other ppl anytime.
-Jake

Ridge Runner 11-21-2015 06:31 AM

I have a lot invested in what I do, 3 grand for a rifle, 2 more in a scope and rangefinder, several hundred in bullets, powder and such, but I spend days in the field testing, looking for places where such shots are likely, and I get to shoot a lot. Its fun, its almost foolproof, if not for the wind its all simple math, I do not take a shot past 500 with winds over 10 mph. when its calm anyone can put the "X" on a deer at 600 yards and make it count if they know how much up is needed, you find that out by shooting a lot. once you have your drop chart tweaked to your actual trajectory its a no brainer, breathe and squeeze. I have taken 10 year old kids hunting, put them behind the rifle and they whack'em at 500 yards, the hardest part is calming them down prior to the shot.
RR

super_hunt54 11-21-2015 07:10 AM

The major problem I have with it, as you well know RR, is that 99% of the people TRYING those long range shots attempt them WITHOUT the knowledge or skill actually required for long range shooting. They think because they have a "magic magnum" or some high dollar custom rifle that they can automatically extend their range to 700+ yards. Another major problem is TIME. As you well know, it takes time from the trigger break to that bullet reaching 700 yards and in that small amount of time a whitetail or elk can take a step, even if totally relaxed and feeding, and turn a perfectly set up shot into a gut shot. You know you've seen it RR. You know you have experienced it whether you admit it here or not. No one claiming the amount of deer taken as you claim at long range could have NOT experienced that. In my mind just, one gut shot animal that is left to go off and suffer because you didn't want to get closer to a reasonable shot distance is too many. How many people have ranges to practice at for those yardages in today's world? Not many. I personally have the skills as well as the ranges to practice to be taking those 1000 yards shots but I don't because I have more respect for the animal than that. Movement in that TIME is one factor you can NOT adjust for no matter how well you can read the animal. It's as simple as that.

Ridge Runner 11-21-2015 07:21 AM


Originally Posted by super_hunt54 (Post 4229364)
The major problem I have with it, as you well know RR, is that 99% of the people TRYING those long range shots attempt them WITHOUT the knowledge or skill actually required for long range shooting. They think because they have a "magic magnum" or some high dollar custom rifle that they can automatically extend their range to 700+ yards. Another major problem is TIME. As you well know, it takes time from the trigger break to that bullet reaching 700 yards and in that small amount of time a whitetail or elk can take a step, even if totally relaxed and feeding, and turn a perfectly set up shot into a gut shot. You know you've seen it RR. You know you have experienced it whether you admit it here or not. No one claiming the amount of deer taken as you claim at long range could have NOT experienced that. In my mind just, one gut shot animal that is left to go off and suffer because you didn't want to get closer to a reasonable shot distance is too many. How many people have ranges to practice at for those yardages in today's world? Not many. I personally have the skills as well as the ranges to practice to be taking those 1000 yards shots but I don't because I have more respect for the animal than that. Movement in that TIME is one factor you can NOT adjust for no matter how well you can read the animal. It's as simple as that.

good answer! however I beg to differ on your comment about you can't tell by watching an animals body language when you have the 1/2 to 3/4 second window for TOF, you never shoot an animal with their head down, or head up ears erect, only when they have they're head up ears down and chewing.

another thing, if you ever witnessed a bad hit at long range you would know, they do not blast off on a blind run like they do when you subject them to an in their face muzzle blast at less than 300 yards, they make a few jumps and lay down, way more injured deer get away at 50 yards than they do at 750, that's a fact, I've saw it a few times, the only deer that sprint off when hit at long range are lung shot deer that immediately smell and taste blood and it spooks them.
RR

sconnyhunter 11-21-2015 07:26 AM

I have heard that the ethical man knows its wrong to do something. The moral man just doesn't do it.

That being said.
We all have different morals and ethics to live with. If a person can make the shot cleanly. I have no problem with it. Sure a deer can move in the split second it takes to travel 758 yrds.
But my 7mm Magnum covers that distance in less than a second. The bullet has hit the deer before the deer hears the shot.
The deer isn't going to move enough to affect shot placement.

Like super hunt said, most people don't have the time or space to practice these shots. There just aren't that many long range ranges to shoot at. That kind of space costs a lot of money. They have no business attempting shots like that.
I know my rifle after 20yrs of shooting it. But i know that i have no business trying past 200 yrds. That is my comfort zone.

DJfan 11-21-2015 07:45 AM

Nothing wrong with any type of hunting if the person learns it, practices it and is dedicated to it.

I wish I could shoot like that.

jeepkid 11-21-2015 07:46 AM


Originally Posted by super_hunt54 (Post 4229364)
The major problem I have with it, as you well know RR, is that 99% of the people TRYING those long range shots attempt them WITHOUT the knowledge or skill actually required for long range shooting. They think because they have a "magic magnum" or some high dollar custom rifle that they can automatically extend their range to 700+ yards. Another major problem is TIME. As you well know, it takes time from the trigger break to that bullet reaching 700 yards and in that small amount of time a whitetail or elk can take a step, even if totally relaxed and feeding, and turn a perfectly set up shot into a gut shot. You know you've seen it RR. You know you have experienced it whether you admit it here or not. No one claiming the amount of deer taken as you claim at long range could have NOT experienced that. In my mind just, one gut shot animal that is left to go off and suffer because you didn't want to get closer to a reasonable shot distance is too many. How many people have ranges to practice at for those yardages in today's world? Not many. I personally have the skills as well as the ranges to practice to be taking those 1000 yards shots but I don't because I have more respect for the animal than that. Movement in that TIME is one factor you can NOT adjust for no matter how well you can read the animal. It's as simple as that.

I've seen more gut shot animals under 200 yards then over 500. The difference like you say is "TIME". People aren't patient when they see an animal at close range, they see it's legal and start blasting away...gut shots, legs get blown off, jaws get blown off, they get shot in the arse, all bad shots. Yet, at "long range" people have "TIME" to relax, look at the animal, get the scope adjusted, read the wind, relax, take a pee, decide if the shot is doable, relax again, then touch off the trigger...

Ridge Runner 11-21-2015 07:58 AM


Originally Posted by jeepkid (Post 4229382)
Yet, at "long range" people have "TIME" to relax, look at the animal, get the scope adjusted, read the wind, relax, take a pee, decide if the shot is doable, relax again, then touch off the trigger...

LOL! reminds me of 2008, in 2007 I was invited to bring my rifle to the adjoining county for a doe hunt, field was 1400 yards wide, I put a couple locals on the rifle, they both connected at 567 and 722 yards (having never shot beyond 300 yards before) I was on the spotter instructing them when to "send it" I took a couple from 600 to past 800 yards.
got in invite in '08 and when we were on the rifle there was benches, a grill, a keg of beer, and 40 people behind us, and southern folk think a hurricane party is a big time.
RR

kidoggy 11-21-2015 08:18 AM


Originally Posted by sconnyhunter (Post 4229371)
I have heard that the ethical man knows its wrong to do something. The moral man just doesn't do it.

That being said.
We all have different morals and ethics to live with. If a person can make the shot cleanly. I have no problem with it. Sure a deer can move in the split second it takes to travel 758 yrds.
But my 7mm Magnum covers that distance in less than a second. The bullet has hit the deer before the deer hears the shot.
The deer isn't going to move enough to affect shot placement.

Like super hunt said, most people don't have the time or space to practice these shots. There just aren't that many long range ranges to shoot at. That kind of space costs a lot of money. They have no business attempting shots like that.
I know my rifle after 20yrs of shooting it. But i know that i have no business trying past 200 yrds. That is my comfort zone.



besides the movement arguement can also be made for close shots.
how many deer have been missed or wounded during archery because of string twang when arrow is released? is it unethical or immoral to hunt with a bow? (rehtorical, I am sure many would say yes)
or how many close rifle shots have been missed because deer saw hunter right as he shot, or he hurried shot in fear animal would run away?
point is plenty of deer have been wounded by " close ,ethical" shots also.


I WOULD HOWEVER SAY, THAT I WOULD BE RELUCTANT TO ALLOW A TEN YEAR OLD TO try a five hundred yard shot. though that said, there are many ten year olds that can outshoot many adults

Ridge Runner 11-21-2015 08:33 AM

my statement about the 10 year old was used as an example how easy it can be, they shoot from a prone position with a rear support we have the TIMEto get the rifle set up,I instruct them on the scope settings, and instruct them on how to aim, and when to send itIts basically the same as a 100 yard shot once they are calmed down.
I have let 16 folks that had their introduction to long range and 15 of those made 1 shot kills that were recovered at ranges from490 to 722 yards, the 16th one made a killing shot but the deer made it to adjoining property and the landowner refused us access.
the shooter run the gamut from middle school kids, to college girls to veteran hunters who just never shot long distance.
RR

Champlain Islander 11-21-2015 08:38 AM

Question RR...are you self taught, ex military, or did you have a mentor to work your way to the level you are at today? I have a buddy who lives in NY who is a re-loader and shooter. He has access to a 750 yd range and he played around with some long range stuff with a bull barreled 308 Savage he bought just to mess around with that distance. He said it was a blast but certainly didn't achieve the accuracy to hunt at that range.

Ridge Runner 11-21-2015 08:55 AM

CI, here s my story, I'm sure I've posted it here before but here goes

I was 21 years old, had hunted for years, killed a lot of stuff, deer season 1981
saw a buck chasing does up on the hill above my grandma's farm, my rifle at that time was a Remington model 760 270 with a 4x redfield, I layed down, put the fat part of the crosshair on the deers spine and squeezed, he hit the ground flopping, my only thought was daaayum! I need tolearn how to do this on purpose.
I started buying more powerful flatter shooting rifles, got a 7 mag, then a 270 weatherby, I was stuck at 450 yards, this was before you could buy a mil-dot or BDC scope.
In 1996 I bought a turn key custom 7mmstw from mark bansner, while burning up that 600 dollar barrel I figured out if I sighted it in 2.6" high at 100 I was 19" low at 500 so shots got easier to 600 yards, but how could you get past that? in 1998 I finaly joined the computer age, I joined here and during a google search found a forum called long range hunting, that is where I got the most knowledge from, those guys are amazing, they told me what I needed, where to get it and how to use it, anyone who has doubts should join there, read and ask questions.
you need good shooting rifle with thecapacity to deliver the required energy at your maximum distance, a rangefinder to tell you how far to your target, and a drop chart adjusted to your load, a way to read atmospheric conditions and practice and more practice, I was as good as I will ever be in 2008, was hoping to take a deer at 1 mile but life got in the way, when my daughter was diagnosed with diabetes, the money I use to spend on shooting now buys her medicine I just do the best I can and try to help others who are interested in it
RR

WV Hunter 11-21-2015 09:16 AM

Hey, I have no issue at all with long range shooting. It impresses the heck out of me. RR you are as good as anyone I know (though I don't know you personally).

It takes alot to get proficient, and I respect that. My only issue is like super said...the people that buy a "magnum" rifle and assume they can shoot deer at long distances. That's a recipe for disaster.

Keep poppin em long distance RR. Good luck next week...I'm heading to the cabin tonight. Should be a nice week weather wise! :D

Father Forkhorn 11-21-2015 09:17 AM

Where I see an ethical issue in long range hunting is in fair chase. As you well know, an animal like a deer has its senses and capabilities as defense mechanisms.

There's a point in there where the animal loses all chance of detecting a hunter, and if it's simply because of technology, I see a problem. Fair chase hunting is about using one's skills at stealth and concealment to avoid detection and then be able to make the kill. For that the game has to have a chance to see you, smell you, hear you, etc.

It's a gray area, for sure. I wear camo and shoot a modern bolt action.

I'd rather see hunters try this as an alternative: See how close you can get to a deer. Can you stalk to within bow range? That's far more impressive than a long shot to me, because I know how easy it is to spook a deer when hunting.

Ridge Runner 11-21-2015 09:25 AM

so FF whacking them from afar is cheating through use of technology, but wearing camo made with same technology, and using scents to fool the deer, while setting in a state of the art treestand is ok
RR

super_hunt54 11-21-2015 10:02 AM

Yes I agree with you RR, that argument really holds no water. As far as a deer's senses go, they are as apt to NOT detect you at 100 yards as they would be out to 1000. With that argument, you would basically be left to using your teeth as your hunting weapon. Guns, bows, even sling shots are technology. True fair chase would be climbing up in a tree and jumping on a deer's back and choking it out like any other predator on the planet.

Oldtimr 11-21-2015 10:44 AM

As long as a person practices and knows their limitations I have no problem with it. The people I know that do it have a crew of people who wait in the general vicinity of the area the shooter is set up to watch so he can lead them in if he kills one. These guys tend to be in place all day, they do not move around and shoot from one side of a valley to the other.

Broncazonk 11-21-2015 11:31 AM

Just A Few Questions..
 
1) Does your scope externally adjust 1/4 MOA or centimetrically?

2) What magnification is it? (Who makes it and what model?)

3) What caliber/load again?

4) What is the weight, and the chronograph calculated BC of your bullet?

5) What is your MV three (3) feet from the chronograph?

6) Make and model of rifle? Also, the barrel length and twist.

7) Set/match trigger? Glass bedded stock?

8) What external ballistic program do you use?

9) What kind of LRF do you use.

10) At what elevation do you hunt?

I routinely shoot 1300-yards, on paper, started shooting 1,000 meters at Quantico and then at Lejeune, been doing it for thirty years, and I NEVER TARGET GAME AT RANGES THAT EXCEED 600-yards. Its unethical, in my opinion to do so, and unless you have VERY GOOD ANSWERS to the above 15 questions, you shouldn't be doing it either.

Bronc

sconnyhunter 11-21-2015 12:57 PM

Bronc, experience can answer a lot of questions that you haven't asked. And it speaks more about the shooter than the questions you did ask.

jeepkid 11-21-2015 01:53 PM


Originally Posted by Broncazonk (Post 4229424)
1) Does your scope externally adjust 1/4 MOA or centimetrically?

2) What magnification is it? (Who makes it and what model?)

3) What caliber/load again?

4) What is the weight, and the chronograph calculated BC of your bullet?

5) What is your MV three (3) feet from the chronograph?

6) Make and model of rifle? Also, the barrel length and twist.

7) Set/match trigger? Glass bedded stock?

8) What external ballistic program do you use?

9) What kind of LRF do you use.

10) At what elevation do you hunt?

I routinely shoot 1300-yards, on paper, started shooting 1,000 meters at Quantico and then at Lejeune, been doing it for thirty years, and I NEVER TARGET GAME AT RANGES THAT EXCEED 600-yards. Its unethical, in my opinion to do so, and unless you have VERY GOOD ANSWERS to the above 15 questions, you shouldn't be doing it either.

Bronc

What the heck, I'll humor him...

1. 1/4, 1/3 or 1/8 moa adjustments, depends on the optic.

2. Huskemaw, Zeiss, Leupold...take your pick.

3. .243 ack, 6.5x284, 7mm RUM, custom wildcats...take your pick.

4. 105 gr Berger, 140 gr Berger, 200gr Wildcat RBBT, 150 gr ABLR...take your pick. I use manufacturers BC as a starting point and then shoot drops to make changes and adjust accordingly.

5. Each rifle is different.

6. All custom rifles built on either Rem 700's or custom actions. Barrels are all a bit longer then the norm and fast twist.

7. Timney, Jewell or worked over 700 triggers. All stocks glass and/or pillar bedded.

8. Nightforce/Exbal.

9. Zeiss.

10. 2,000-5,000 feet normally.

IF you routinely shoot 1300 yards then you should know that with the right equipment and lots of trigger time it really isn't THAT hard, not as easy like they portray on TV, but not very difficult either.

Ridge Runner 11-21-2015 01:55 PM


Originally Posted by Broncazonk (Post 4229424)
1) Does your scope externally adjust 1/4 MOA or centimetrically?

2) What magnification is it? (Who makes it and what model?)
[

3) What caliber/load again?

4) What is the weight, and the chronograph calculated BC of your bullet?

5) What is your MV three (3) feet from the chronograph?

6) Make and model of rifle? Also, the barrel length and twist.

7) Set/match trigger? Glass bedded stock?

8) What external ballistic program do you use?

9) What kind of LRF do you use.

10) At what elevation do you hunt?

I routinely shoot 1300-yards, on paper, started shooting 1,000 meters at Quantico and then at Lejeune, been doing it for thirty years, and I NEVER TARGET GAME AT RANGES THAT EXCEED 600-yards. Its unethical, in my opinion to do so, and unless you have VERY GOOD ANSWERS to the above 15 questions, you shouldn't be doing it either.

Bronc

onece again I shoot different rifles but for ****s and giggles here is my favorite, its a left hand Remington 700 built by ray romain of Brockport pa, has a 30" kreiger 8 twist senduro weight barrel, its pillared and glassed into a joel russo a5-L stock, has a 8.6x25 loopy mark 4 with M1 turrets and a TMR reticle
its chambered in 6,5 gibbs which is a 270 win. necked to .264, the shoulder moved foreward about 1/4" and the shoulder angle changed to 35 degrees
with my load it runs a 140 gr berger at 3160 fps, my tests show the bullet runs an actual BC of .7
the trigger is a factory 700 trigger professionaly tuned
I use a dell axiom PDA running exbal, and a leica 1200 rangefinder
I hunt at less than 3000 fasl
now I ansered your questions, show us your proof that you have done more than a google search.
RR

Champlain Islander 11-21-2015 02:03 PM

RR speak English please. You lost me at Hello.:biggrin:

Ridge Runner 11-21-2015 02:12 PM

CI hope I answered your questions on post 15
RR

Champlain Islander 11-21-2015 02:21 PM

You did and I was just funnin ya. Have you ever fooled around with the 6.5 Creedmoor. I was reading a piece a few months ago and it was kind of developed as a target match type load but in the past few years has been modified to a hunting load with MOA accuracy at long yardages.

Ridge Runner 11-21-2015 02:34 PM


Originally Posted by Champlain Islander (Post 4229457)
You did and I was just funnin ya. Have you ever fooled around with the 6.5 Creedmoor. I was reading a piece a few months ago and it was kind of developed as a target match type load but in the past few years has been modified to a hunting load with MOA accuracy at long yardages.

its a 6.5, so its gonna have impressive ballistics, it actually makes the most out of a 308/243 case. its an awesome round to learn to shoot long range with, barrel will last almost forever
RR

super_hunt54 11-21-2015 02:45 PM


Originally Posted by Broncazonk (Post 4229424)
1) Does your scope externally adjust 1/4 MOA or centimetrically?

2) What magnification is it? (Who makes it and what model?)

3) What caliber/load again?

4) What is the weight, and the chronograph calculated BC of your bullet?

5) What is your MV three (3) feet from the chronograph?

6) Make and model of rifle? Also, the barrel length and twist.

7) Set/match trigger? Glass bedded stock?

8) What external ballistic program do you use?

9) What kind of LRF do you use.

10) At what elevation do you hunt?

I routinely shoot 1300-yards, on paper, started shooting 1,000 meters at Quantico and then at Lejeune, been doing it for thirty years, and I NEVER TARGET GAME AT RANGES THAT EXCEED 600-yards. Its unethical, in my opinion to do so, and unless you have VERY GOOD ANSWERS to the above 15 questions, you shouldn't be doing it either.

Bronc

I'm kinda wondering why an old Marine such as myself would be wondering about "external ballistics programs" or any other fancy dancy new fangled BS. I was shooting long range before any of that crap was ever dreamed of with the old lightly modified M40 and M40A1 and we certainly had nothing along those lines. BD card, a protractor and weighted string, Stadiametric scopes for finding range was state of the art back then. You kids get all the new fun toys ! :s7:

Broncazonk 11-21-2015 06:26 PM

Yep. You need to stay under 600-yards
 
1 Attachment(s)
Okay. You're looking at a Rem Mod 700 with blueprinted bolt and lugs in 300 Win Mag. The Canjar single set trigger goes at 3 pounds unset and 1/4 pound set. The barrel is H&S Precision stainless in 1/10" and it's been cryogenically stress-relieved. The tube is fluted and has a JS Brake affixed for sound suppression. The stock is H&S Precision, aluminum pillar bedded with glass fore-action bedding. The bottom metal is steel H&S. The scope is a Schmidt and Bender 10x PM II .5 centimetric. The S&B is detachable on a 20 MOA rail because the other optic that often gets attached is a AN/PSQ-20. This weapon has been contractually deployed on multiple occasions in SW Asia. The bullet is 190 gr. and the MV is 3050 fps.

Trust me son. To hunt ethically, you need to stay under 600-yards. Deer, elk, caribou, antelope, wild sheep--I hunt them all about every year--do not stand still like people do, and they have a bad habit of moving right when you touch the trigger.

Your 140 gr. bullet weight is on the ragged edge of not not being heavy enough. The retained energy at 800 yards is marginal. Also, you do not have a .7 BC. Period. You don't have it with a G1 or G7 drag coefficient. Using a factory trigger on a game animal at long is unwise, and in fact, unethical.

Listen to me or not.

Bronc

jeepkid 11-21-2015 07:07 PM


Originally Posted by Broncazonk (Post 4229489)
Okay. You're looking at a Rem Mod 700 with blueprinted bolt and lugs in 300 Win Mag. The Canjar single set trigger goes at 3 pounds unset and 1/4 pound set. The barrel is H&S Precision stainless in 1/10" and it's been cryogenically stress-relieved. The tube is fluted and has a JS Brake affixed for sound suppression. The stock is H&S Precision, aluminum pillar bedded with glass fore-action bedding. The bottom metal is steel H&S. The scope is a Schmidt and Bender 10x PM II .5 centimetric. The S&B is detachable on a 20 MOA rail because the other optic that often gets attached is a AN/PSQ-20. This weapon has been contractually deployed on multiple occasions in SW Asia. The bullet is 190 gr. and the MV is 3050 fps.

Trust me son. To hunt ethically, you need to stay under 600-yards. Deer, elk, caribou, antelope, wild sheep--I hunt them all about every year--do not stand still like people do, and they have a bad habit of moving right when you touch the trigger.

Your 140 gr. bullet weight is on the ragged edge of not not being heavy enough. The retained energy at 800 yards is marginal. Also, you do not have a .7 BC. Period. You don't have it with a G1 or G7 drag coefficient. Using a factory trigger on a game animal at long is unwise, and in fact, unethical.

Listen to me or not.

Bronc

Built by the lowest bidder I assume since it has a bunch of HS junk on it?

Broncazonk 11-21-2015 07:18 PM

Bingo!
 

Originally Posted by jeepkid (Post 4229492)
Built by the lowest bidder I assume since it has a bunch of HS junk on it?

LOL. You're exactly right. I just use it. I don't buy or pay for any of it.

Bronc

super_hunt54 11-21-2015 07:20 PM

Granted, most in here that know me (or of me) know I dislike (kind word) Remington triggers. But RR's trigger is by no means "factory" and a good smith can do some real wonders with Rem triggers. I've even fingered a few that I actually could tolerate. And believe me when I tell you, I am probably THE most picky SOB on this planet when it comes to trigger feel. I even hone my $300-$400 Jewel or Timney triggers!

As far as his BC, he very well could be getting .7 with a Berger bullet. They have some of the best BC on the market and the 6.5 is VERY well known to have many bullets in the stable with high BC values.

I do 100% agree that people shouldn't be poking long range shots out there because of animal movement as I have seen absolutely TOO many sick and hurt animals from people trying shots they had absolutely no business trying, but as someone else stated, I have probably seen just as many, if not more from people snap shooting at close ranges as well.

As far as the "retained energy" comment, have you not ever seen the size of them West Virginia deer? I have 2 dogs that are BIGGER than them little things. Trust me, it doesn't take too awful much energy to drop them :D (sits back giggling and waiting for sarcastic remark from RR)

MudderChuck 11-21-2015 07:24 PM

I've practiced at 500, my longest shot is 350 (right through the heart). The vast majority of my shots are within 50 yards.

I take shots at varmints I wouldn't take on game animals.

A good shot is when it falls in a pile, an acceptable shot is when it runs less than fifty yards.

I've gut shot one animal in my whole life, a Fox.

I have had bullets hit something between the muzzle and the Deer. One deer turned out looking like road kill, another looked like it had been hit by a shotgun.

I'm for any kind of hunting that kills them dead in a reasonable amount of time and distance. Wounding them and having them hide in the brush to suffer and die a slow death, is wrong.

I was a guide/overseer for a couple of decades. I've tracked down, I don't know how many wounded Deer. I always said a little prayer when I finally put them to rest.

Personally I'd leave anything over around 400 yards to target shooting, just my opinion. To many things can go wrong, even shooting through different air temperature layers can change a bullets path significantly. Ambient temperature can change how fast the powder burns. To many variables for me to be comfortable with it. I've done enough longer range shooting to make a few self discoveries about it. I got good enough at it, that I was more accurate than the rifle and ammo was, so I could make informed corrections.

I found out along time ago some people are just talented and can do things I can't. I try to stay within my limitations.

One of the better 500 yard rifle shooters I know uses a model 98 and casts his own bullets. He reduces the muzzle velocity to avoid excessive lead fouling. He shoots that thing almost like a mortar.:) His ammo expands just enough to seal the breach and not much more, minimum loads.

Sheridan 11-21-2015 07:30 PM


Originally Posted by Broncazonk (Post 4229424)
1) Does your scope externally adjust 1/4 MOA or centimetrically?

2) What magnification is it? (Who makes it and what model?)

3) What caliber/load again?

4) What is the weight, and the chronograph calculated BC of your bullet?

5) What is your MV three (3) feet from the chronograph?

6) Make and model of rifle? Also, the barrel length and twist.

7) Set/match trigger? Glass bedded stock?

8) What external ballistic program do you use?

9) What kind of LRF do you use.

10) At what elevation do you hunt?

I routinely shoot 1300-yards, on paper, started shooting 1,000 meters at Quantico and then at Lejeune, been doing it for thirty years, and I NEVER TARGET GAME AT RANGES THAT EXCEED 600-yards. Its unethical, in my opinion to do so, and unless you have VERY GOOD ANSWERS to the above 15 questions, you shouldn't be doing it either.

Bronc

That's pretty good !!!


Ridge - Like any good PH, I would simple ask; at what distance can you put 10 out of 10 in a paper plate ?? :fighting0007:

Ridge Runner 11-22-2015 02:06 AM


Originally Posted by Broncazonk (Post 4229489)

Trust me son. To hunt ethically, you need to stay under 600-yards. Deer, elk, caribou, antelope, wild sheep--I hunt them all about every year--do not stand still like people do, and they have a bad habit of moving right when you touch the trigger.

Your 140 gr. bullet weight is on the ragged edge of not not being heavy enough. The retained energy at 800 yards is marginal.
well how do you figure its marginal? it retains 1383 ft/lbs at 800 and 1105 ft/lbs at 1000 Also, you do not have a .7 BC. Period. You don't have it with a G1 or G7 drag coefficient.
the berger 140 has a published G1 BC of .612, extensive testing while establishing my trajectory came up with an actual BC of .7 in other words to make my chart match my trajectory I had to bump the BC up or I was shooting 1/2 moa high out to my max. distance of 1100 yards. so do I have a BC of .7? couldn't care less what it is, long as the bullet goes where I want it
Using a factory trigger on a game animal at long is unwise, and in fact, unethical.
my smith tuned trigger breaks right at 2#, wouldn't want it less than that for hunting in the cool mornings wearing gloves, your ethics are yours, not mine thank you very much
Listen to me or not.

Bronc

think it is a not

RR

Ridge Runner 11-22-2015 04:43 AM


Originally Posted by Sheridan (Post 4229498)
That's pretty good !!!


Ridge - Like any good PH, I would simple ask; at what distance can you put 10 out of 10 in a paper plate ?? :fighting0007:

13 out of 14 in a 9" circle at 1060 when I'm on my game
RR

jeepkid 11-22-2015 08:32 AM


Originally Posted by Broncazonk (Post 4229493)
LOL. You're exactly right. I just use it. I don't buy or pay for any of it.

Bronc

Sorry to burst your bubble but an HS barrel is just "okay", they don't win anything besides low bidder on Govt Contracts and HS stocks don't even make the top 5 on my list for precision hunting rifles, but they make for a nice stock for a factory Remington Sendero/PSS. Their bottom metal is good stuff tho. :s4:

I'm not sure how you figure James' 6.5 140gr bullet doesn't have enough energy??? Deer don't wear body armor. My little ol .243 Ack with a 105gr will do the job on a deer out to a grand :s3:

If you really don't think his 6.5 has enough energy, then ask him about his 7mm AM...it'll make your 300 Winny look like a rimfire...:poke:

The difference between myself and James and you is that OUR guns are coming out of OUR paychecks so we do the research and get the best rifles we can afford to get the job done, and we get it done very well. My .284 wildcat that is being built right now has a $900 barrel on it, that's just the blank, before any machine work is done to it :barmy:

Mojotex 11-22-2015 09:15 AM

Here's my take. I do my very best to take only those shots that I a 100% certainthat I can make. Have I missed or made a bad placement .... sure. But thankfully in 50+ years of hunting deer, only a handful of times. Adn I wish it was zero, but it is not.

I shoot a good bit, but have never practiced any length of time at distances farther than 400 yards. I'd say 90% of my practicing is at 200 yards. Why such a short limit? Becasue almost every shot that I will ever get at deer where I hunt will be 200 yards or less.

If I hunted a great deal where clear shots were often at 300-400-500 yards etc., I would practice at those distances. And maybe I could get good at it .... even at 67 !! Until then, I will be content to simply admire those who can make those long shots and will stay within my 300 yards or so.

But at the same time .... I will rail against those who do not that the time prepare well so that they can make clean kills , regardless of distance. Lord knows we hunters owe it to the wild game that we choose to take to be dang good at making a quick kill.

Broncazonk 11-22-2015 09:35 AM

This is a very common occurrence in the profession, (every profession, in fact.)

1) Party 1 (usually a ranking officer or supervisor) *think* they have expertise, *think* they know something about something, and when they ask for an opinion they *think* they already know the answer;

2) Party 2 gives them a professional opinion;

3) Party 1 doesn't like what he hears, because he *thinks* he has expertise and knows something about something;

4) Party 1 (and his friends) get all haired up over what they hear and then start attacking Party 2;

5) Party 1 makes the call because he is the ranking officer or supervisor;

6) That decision results in horrible, FUBAR consequences, and the whole operation becomes a CF.

7) The unit ends up doing what Party 2 suggested in the first place, and that whole evolution is never spoken of again.

Yep! This seems VERY familiar...

Listen son, game animals are not paper targets that exist for your amusement. You should have a strongly held ethical commitment to making near instantly fatal hits on target. Deer do not live so you can wound them at 800-yards. A 140-gr. bullet has the same energy at 800-1000 yards as a 9mm pistol does at the muzzle. There is a VERY GOOD reason why the 9mm is not a legal round to harvest big game nearly everywhere.

Big game (as I've already said) and especially large-antlered big game do not stand still like paper targets. They are usually on the move, in bullet deflecting brush. Also, when you are hunting, you're never shooting off a bench, you're never sandbagged in, your heartbeat is never steady and calm, etc, etc, etc.

You're going to do what you're going to do. But when you blow the leg of a really good deer at 800-yards because you saw, Quigley Down Under and wanted to be like him and you're stumbling around looking for a blood trail and you're crying and feeling like a dirtbag and a criminal, YOU, YOURSELF will be solely to blame. Or maybe you won't cry, or feel like a dirtbag, or criminal, but then, what will THAT say about you?

Stick to 600-yard shots and under: you will safely enjoy both worlds that way. I've killed twelve (12) 160" B&C bucks or better and the longest shot was 302-yards, and the vast majority have been under 120-yards. The longest shot I've ever taken on a big game animal was 407-yards by the laser on a B&C caribou on Adak. When you think about it, if you can't consistently get within a quarter mile (440-yards) of the game that you are hunting maybe you shouldn't be in the woods.

All my Best,

Bronc


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