question for all members
11-25-2015, 11:42 AM
#111
Spike
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 32
11-25-2015, 11:45 AM
#112
Spike
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 32
I'm calling foul on that one Cal. At what point does one define hunting over shooting? My own personal belief is when one is completely and totally out of an animals awareness and senses boundaries and there is absolutely no way that animal could spot you, wind you, or have any way of knowing you are in his world, that becomes shooting. Archery, we go up in a tree, get in a blind, use scent control, and every other thing that's been thought of to FOOL those senses but those animals still have a HUGE chance of winding or seeing you or hearing you. (Anyone that says deer don't look up hasn't been in the woods). In firearms you are looking at around 400 yards or so for MOST big game. 600 for speed goats and those binocular eyes.
To me, hunting isn't just the "taking of game". It's also the woods craft and everything else involved to get within a reasonable range of an animal. The MAIN problem I have with a LOT of the "long range shooters" I have stated several times. Time factor for bullet flight and that animal's movement DURING that time can NOT be accounted for 100%. PERIOD. Animals move. Yes you can somewhat determine an animals posture and state of relaxation and can get a good idea about it's possible movements but the fact remains, you can NOT know if that deer is about to take a little step that would make that perfect shot you just sent turn into a gut shot. It happens.
In my own little opinion, you aren't matching wits with an animal if you are taking 700-1000+ yard shots on them. You are matching wits with yourself and your own personal boundaries for distance. They can't smell, see, or hear you at those distances so just how are you matching wits with them?
Fact is, there are just too many folks out there that believe that they have WAY more skill than they actually have. The comment about most folks against long range shots are "jealous" may apply to some but you can dang sure bet it doesn't apply to me. I was shooting long range before most of these guys on here were a gleam in their mammies eye and can still bang the gong at 1000 yards even being as old as dirt!
There is a pretty big difference between hunting and shooting and I'd pretty much bet that RR would agree with that statement. His own comment earlier about setting up 700+ yards off a field with a group of folks around there having a party and taking shots on deer would pretty much nail that opinion down don't ya think? Would you still call that "hunting" Cal or would you call that "shooting"?
To me, hunting isn't just the "taking of game". It's also the woods craft and everything else involved to get within a reasonable range of an animal. The MAIN problem I have with a LOT of the "long range shooters" I have stated several times. Time factor for bullet flight and that animal's movement DURING that time can NOT be accounted for 100%. PERIOD. Animals move. Yes you can somewhat determine an animals posture and state of relaxation and can get a good idea about it's possible movements but the fact remains, you can NOT know if that deer is about to take a little step that would make that perfect shot you just sent turn into a gut shot. It happens.
In my own little opinion, you aren't matching wits with an animal if you are taking 700-1000+ yard shots on them. You are matching wits with yourself and your own personal boundaries for distance. They can't smell, see, or hear you at those distances so just how are you matching wits with them?
Fact is, there are just too many folks out there that believe that they have WAY more skill than they actually have. The comment about most folks against long range shots are "jealous" may apply to some but you can dang sure bet it doesn't apply to me. I was shooting long range before most of these guys on here were a gleam in their mammies eye and can still bang the gong at 1000 yards even being as old as dirt!
There is a pretty big difference between hunting and shooting and I'd pretty much bet that RR would agree with that statement. His own comment earlier about setting up 700+ yards off a field with a group of folks around there having a party and taking shots on deer would pretty much nail that opinion down don't ya think? Would you still call that "hunting" Cal or would you call that "shooting"?
11-25-2015, 11:54 AM
#113
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,644
Today I took my 13 yo nephew hunting, he wanted to take a deer at a longer distance than he is use to seeing, so we hit the place where I take most beginners, the shots there average 300-600 yards, since he was very inexperienced I set the max limit for him at 500 yards, 9 different times we got set up on deer from 430 to 504 yards, you all think the deer doesn't have a chance to escape need to get out and try LR whitetail hunting in the timber, the tenth time we set up the deer finaly hit an open hole at 470 yards and he took out both shoulders and we found her 30 feet from impact. they either bedded in cover as we watched, walked behind a tree and never came out or just sauntered along till they were out of site. so before your convinced its not ethical, take a pair of binocs,a LRF, and your rifle to the woods, find a deer at 500 yards, range it, get the crosshairs on it and see how many clear shots you get in a day, don't shoot if ya don't want but see how many "killing" shot opprotunities you get, then tell me how easy it is.
RR
RR
11-25-2015, 12:06 PM
#114
Spike
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 32
Today I took my 13 yo nephew hunting, he wanted to take a deer at a longer distance than he is use to seeing, so we hit the place where I take most beginners, the shots there average 300-600 yards, since he was very inexperienced I set the max limit for him at 500 yards, 9 different times we got set up on deer from 430 to 504 yards, you all think the deer doesn't have a chance to escape need to get out and try LR whitetail hunting in the timber, the tenth time we set up the deer finaly hit an open hole at 470 yards and he took out both shoulders and we found her 30 feet from impact. they either bedded in cover as we watched, walked behind a tree and never came out or just sauntered along till they were out of site. so before your convinced its not ethical, take a pair of binocs,a LRF, and your rifle to the woods, find a deer at 500 yards, range it, get the crosshairs on it and see how many clear shots you get in a day, don't shoot if ya don't want but see how many "killing" shot opprotunities you get, then tell me how easy it is.
RR
RR
I can take game cleanly at a mere 300 yards with my hunting setup from an unsupported field position, but you will never find me setting up just so I can shoot at the edge of my range and give myself a pat on the back, many of us kill deer for very different reasons than whatever drives you to make these long range kills.
11-25-2015, 12:24 PM
#115
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,644
I'm not saying it isn't difficult, I'm just saying that you are dodging many of the complications of hunting at closer ranges. Which, in some of our opinions... which you requested, makes for poor hunting although the shooting might have been great.
I can take game cleanly at a mere 300 yards with my hunting setup from an unsupported field position, but you will never find me setting up just so I can shoot at the edge of my range and give myself a pat on the back, many of us kill deer for very different reasons than whatever drives you to make these long range kills.
I can take game cleanly at a mere 300 yards with my hunting setup from an unsupported field position, but you will never find me setting up just so I can shoot at the edge of my range and give myself a pat on the back, many of us kill deer for very different reasons than whatever drives you to make these long range kills.
family members watched as a shot a crow at 510 yards, they learned how well a rifle can shoot. For years wv allowed hunters to shoot deer from a bait station, put a treestand at the pile and shoot them at 30-50 yards, it takes years to learn how to hunt, I try to teach marksmanship which is becoming a lost art.
I also have to take tempature, barometric pressure, at certain times humidity and the amout the earth rotates on its axis during the time of flight, also I have to take time to get set up for each different situation, I have to make these calls on the wing not the day before when checking accueweather. the complications I dodge bring on many more that puts the pressure of success or failure on me, its a challenge I put against myself, not some dumb animal, they can't reason every movement they make comes through instinct, what mother nature has taught them over thousands of years, as a human if you can't get around animal instincts, keep your composer to successfully hunt deer, I'm sorry, I killed over 200 deer before I started long range hunting, it ain't that hard.
RR
Last edited by Ridge Runner; 11-25-2015 at 12:45 PM.
11-25-2015, 12:42 PM
#116
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 5,130
11-25-2015, 12:49 PM
#117
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
I don't believe a single person commenting on this thread has said it wasn't difficult RR. My main problem with it is the actual difficult nature of long range shots and animals movements! Most aren't equipped both in equipment or ability. Some just THINK they are. They go out and buy a high dollar custom rifle with a super duper scope and they think they can just magically make a 700+ yard shot! You know as well as I do that aint the fact there Jack! I have a custom .30-06 I built years ago that I would be supremely confident with at 800 yards as far as shot making as I put them in the ring or on the steel all the time with her. But I still wouldn't go past 400 on live game. Yes Cal I know, that's my own personal restrictions and I shouldn't try to force them on others which I am not trying to do here. RR does his thing during population control hunts for the most part and as I have previously said, he is doing a service. But there are just too many idiots out there that think they have the skills because they saw it done on Youtube and bought a high dollar rig. We've all seen them. RR has personally ran into many I'm sure as I have. Most of those guys couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle! Then you have the guys out there that have practiced some from a bench and think they can make those same shots under field conditions. OOPS again!
Yes the Hunting vs. Shooting subject can be and usually is highly subjective and is all about each individuals ethics. But the fact remains that there are situations where it is just plain old "turkey shoots" and RR can tell you the same thing. Example, you have a field that the farmer tells you deer are there every day at a certain time frame, you have a nice little rise about 600-700 yards off, no trees or underbrush getting between you and those deer. That's shooting. Granted yes longer ranges and still in a high difficulty factor, but it's still just shooting. But in all reality, that's the same comparison that can be made to me scouting all summer, finding where the trails intersect from bedding to food, setting up a tree stand, trimming some shooting lanes, and setting up for a 40 or under shot for archery. See I aint totally ignorant Cal, I see the comparisons on both sides of the stories.
RR asked for comments and opinions. He was given comments and opinions. I didn't knock him personally as I know he is a good shot and does all he can, including waiting patiently for that shot, to make clean quick kills. And he will "fess up" to his "other than perfect" shots as well.
All we can do, as moral hunters, is to try to teach the new generations values and ethics in hunting so they don't make those terrible mistakes such as wounding our beloved game animals. We owe them, both the hunters and the wild game, nothing less.
Yes the Hunting vs. Shooting subject can be and usually is highly subjective and is all about each individuals ethics. But the fact remains that there are situations where it is just plain old "turkey shoots" and RR can tell you the same thing. Example, you have a field that the farmer tells you deer are there every day at a certain time frame, you have a nice little rise about 600-700 yards off, no trees or underbrush getting between you and those deer. That's shooting. Granted yes longer ranges and still in a high difficulty factor, but it's still just shooting. But in all reality, that's the same comparison that can be made to me scouting all summer, finding where the trails intersect from bedding to food, setting up a tree stand, trimming some shooting lanes, and setting up for a 40 or under shot for archery. See I aint totally ignorant Cal, I see the comparisons on both sides of the stories.
RR asked for comments and opinions. He was given comments and opinions. I didn't knock him personally as I know he is a good shot and does all he can, including waiting patiently for that shot, to make clean quick kills. And he will "fess up" to his "other than perfect" shots as well.
All we can do, as moral hunters, is to try to teach the new generations values and ethics in hunting so they don't make those terrible mistakes such as wounding our beloved game animals. We owe them, both the hunters and the wild game, nothing less.
11-25-2015, 01:01 PM
#118
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Vermont
Posts: 22,570
Just got home from a session out in the field dialing in "ole smokey". Got her ready for the ML season in a week and a half. Getting antsy and looking to hunt. Just waiting for tags to come into season. Glad to see the thread is ongoing and staying on the right side of civility.
11-25-2015, 01:05 PM
#119
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,644
Super, excellent post, I do not know about all the guys buying a rifle and trying it with no knowledge I have a group of guys I work with, they practiced for 2 years before attempting a shot long enough it required dialing, every person that I take out, they have agreed to some rules, they shoot my rifle, they are given a crash course about setting the parralex, and they perform the action several times and I inspect the results, if they fail then I set the parralex for them. they do not fire till I give the command to "send it"
this way I feel they can learn more, harvest a deer and not go home disappointed.
I have spent thousands of hours watching whitetails through glass, I can see the shot window developing, I can tell when the shot window is there, the deer is relaxed weight back on the front feet, it is then and only then I give the command.
usualy you can tell who is truly interested in learning, of dozens of people who call me and state that they wanna shoot long range and they were told to call me, my first comment is you'll need to spend at least 3 grand, those who I get a return call from do well.
RR
this way I feel they can learn more, harvest a deer and not go home disappointed.
I have spent thousands of hours watching whitetails through glass, I can see the shot window developing, I can tell when the shot window is there, the deer is relaxed weight back on the front feet, it is then and only then I give the command.
usualy you can tell who is truly interested in learning, of dozens of people who call me and state that they wanna shoot long range and they were told to call me, my first comment is you'll need to spend at least 3 grand, those who I get a return call from do well.
RR
11-25-2015, 01:27 PM
#120
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Vermont
Posts: 22,570
Sounds like a whole new hobby with a ton of room for improvement and learning. I have to ask what are the realistic limits to success as far as target shooting. With ballistics in mind... just how far can one expect to have accuracy? Shooting long distance on game here in Vt isn't practical since the fields are small and the woods are thick so any education I would get would be for targets.
