question for all members
11-21-2015, 07:07 PM
#31
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: ****ifornia
Posts: 5,052
Okay. You're looking at a Rem Mod 700 with blueprinted bolt and lugs in 300 Win Mag. The Canjar single set trigger goes at 3 pounds unset and 1/4 pound set. The barrel is H&S Precision stainless in 1/10" and it's been cryogenically stress-relieved. The tube is fluted and has a JS Brake affixed for sound suppression. The stock is H&S Precision, aluminum pillar bedded with glass fore-action bedding. The bottom metal is steel H&S. The scope is a Schmidt and Bender 10x PM II .5 centimetric. The S&B is detachable on a 20 MOA rail because the other optic that often gets attached is a AN/PSQ-20. This weapon has been contractually deployed on multiple occasions in SW Asia. The bullet is 190 gr. and the MV is 3050 fps.
Trust me son. To hunt ethically, you need to stay under 600-yards. Deer, elk, caribou, antelope, wild sheep--I hunt them all about every year--do not stand still like people do, and they have a bad habit of moving right when you touch the trigger.
Your 140 gr. bullet weight is on the ragged edge of not not being heavy enough. The retained energy at 800 yards is marginal. Also, you do not have a .7 BC. Period. You don't have it with a G1 or G7 drag coefficient. Using a factory trigger on a game animal at long is unwise, and in fact, unethical.
Listen to me or not.
Bronc
Trust me son. To hunt ethically, you need to stay under 600-yards. Deer, elk, caribou, antelope, wild sheep--I hunt them all about every year--do not stand still like people do, and they have a bad habit of moving right when you touch the trigger.
Your 140 gr. bullet weight is on the ragged edge of not not being heavy enough. The retained energy at 800 yards is marginal. Also, you do not have a .7 BC. Period. You don't have it with a G1 or G7 drag coefficient. Using a factory trigger on a game animal at long is unwise, and in fact, unethical.
Listen to me or not.
Bronc
11-21-2015, 07:20 PM
#33
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
Granted, most in here that know me (or of me) know I dislike (kind word) Remington triggers. But RR's trigger is by no means "factory" and a good smith can do some real wonders with Rem triggers. I've even fingered a few that I actually could tolerate. And believe me when I tell you, I am probably THE most picky SOB on this planet when it comes to trigger feel. I even hone my $300-$400 Jewel or Timney triggers!
As far as his BC, he very well could be getting .7 with a Berger bullet. They have some of the best BC on the market and the 6.5 is VERY well known to have many bullets in the stable with high BC values.
I do 100% agree that people shouldn't be poking long range shots out there because of animal movement as I have seen absolutely TOO many sick and hurt animals from people trying shots they had absolutely no business trying, but as someone else stated, I have probably seen just as many, if not more from people snap shooting at close ranges as well.
As far as the "retained energy" comment, have you not ever seen the size of them West Virginia deer? I have 2 dogs that are BIGGER than them little things. Trust me, it doesn't take too awful much energy to drop them
(sits back giggling and waiting for sarcastic remark from RR)
As far as his BC, he very well could be getting .7 with a Berger bullet. They have some of the best BC on the market and the 6.5 is VERY well known to have many bullets in the stable with high BC values.
I do 100% agree that people shouldn't be poking long range shots out there because of animal movement as I have seen absolutely TOO many sick and hurt animals from people trying shots they had absolutely no business trying, but as someone else stated, I have probably seen just as many, if not more from people snap shooting at close ranges as well.
As far as the "retained energy" comment, have you not ever seen the size of them West Virginia deer? I have 2 dogs that are BIGGER than them little things. Trust me, it doesn't take too awful much energy to drop them
(sits back giggling and waiting for sarcastic remark from RR)
11-21-2015, 07:24 PM
#34
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Germany/Calif.
Posts: 2,664
I've practiced at 500, my longest shot is 350 (right through the heart). The vast majority of my shots are within 50 yards.
I take shots at varmints I wouldn't take on game animals.
A good shot is when it falls in a pile, an acceptable shot is when it runs less than fifty yards.
I've gut shot one animal in my whole life, a Fox.
I have had bullets hit something between the muzzle and the Deer. One deer turned out looking like road kill, another looked like it had been hit by a shotgun.
I'm for any kind of hunting that kills them dead in a reasonable amount of time and distance. Wounding them and having them hide in the brush to suffer and die a slow death, is wrong.
I was a guide/overseer for a couple of decades. I've tracked down, I don't know how many wounded Deer. I always said a little prayer when I finally put them to rest.
Personally I'd leave anything over around 400 yards to target shooting, just my opinion. To many things can go wrong, even shooting through different air temperature layers can change a bullets path significantly. Ambient temperature can change how fast the powder burns. To many variables for me to be comfortable with it. I've done enough longer range shooting to make a few self discoveries about it. I got good enough at it, that I was more accurate than the rifle and ammo was, so I could make informed corrections.
I found out along time ago some people are just talented and can do things I can't. I try to stay within my limitations.
One of the better 500 yard rifle shooters I know uses a model 98 and casts his own bullets. He reduces the muzzle velocity to avoid excessive lead fouling. He shoots that thing almost like a mortar.
His ammo expands just enough to seal the breach and not much more, minimum loads.
I take shots at varmints I wouldn't take on game animals.
A good shot is when it falls in a pile, an acceptable shot is when it runs less than fifty yards.
I've gut shot one animal in my whole life, a Fox.
I have had bullets hit something between the muzzle and the Deer. One deer turned out looking like road kill, another looked like it had been hit by a shotgun.
I'm for any kind of hunting that kills them dead in a reasonable amount of time and distance. Wounding them and having them hide in the brush to suffer and die a slow death, is wrong.
I was a guide/overseer for a couple of decades. I've tracked down, I don't know how many wounded Deer. I always said a little prayer when I finally put them to rest.
Personally I'd leave anything over around 400 yards to target shooting, just my opinion. To many things can go wrong, even shooting through different air temperature layers can change a bullets path significantly. Ambient temperature can change how fast the powder burns. To many variables for me to be comfortable with it. I've done enough longer range shooting to make a few self discoveries about it. I got good enough at it, that I was more accurate than the rifle and ammo was, so I could make informed corrections.
I found out along time ago some people are just talented and can do things I can't. I try to stay within my limitations.
One of the better 500 yard rifle shooters I know uses a model 98 and casts his own bullets. He reduces the muzzle velocity to avoid excessive lead fouling. He shoots that thing almost like a mortar.
His ammo expands just enough to seal the breach and not much more, minimum loads.
Last edited by MudderChuck; 11-21-2015 at 07:36 PM.
11-21-2015, 07:30 PM
#35
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 5,130
1) Does your scope externally adjust 1/4 MOA or centimetrically?
2) What magnification is it? (Who makes it and what model?)
3) What caliber/load again?
4) What is the weight, and the chronograph calculated BC of your bullet?
5) What is your MV three (3) feet from the chronograph?
6) Make and model of rifle? Also, the barrel length and twist.
7) Set/match trigger? Glass bedded stock?
8) What external ballistic program do you use?
9) What kind of LRF do you use.
10) At what elevation do you hunt?
I routinely shoot 1300-yards, on paper, started shooting 1,000 meters at Quantico and then at Lejeune, been doing it for thirty years, and I NEVER TARGET GAME AT RANGES THAT EXCEED 600-yards. Its unethical, in my opinion to do so, and unless you have VERY GOOD ANSWERS to the above 15 questions, you shouldn't be doing it either.
Bronc
2) What magnification is it? (Who makes it and what model?)
3) What caliber/load again?
4) What is the weight, and the chronograph calculated BC of your bullet?
5) What is your MV three (3) feet from the chronograph?
6) Make and model of rifle? Also, the barrel length and twist.
7) Set/match trigger? Glass bedded stock?
8) What external ballistic program do you use?
9) What kind of LRF do you use.
10) At what elevation do you hunt?
I routinely shoot 1300-yards, on paper, started shooting 1,000 meters at Quantico and then at Lejeune, been doing it for thirty years, and I NEVER TARGET GAME AT RANGES THAT EXCEED 600-yards. Its unethical, in my opinion to do so, and unless you have VERY GOOD ANSWERS to the above 15 questions, you shouldn't be doing it either.
Bronc
Ridge - Like any good PH, I would simple ask; at what distance can you put 10 out of 10 in a paper plate ??
Last edited by Sheridan; 11-21-2015 at 07:42 PM.
11-22-2015, 02:06 AM
#36
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,646
Trust me son. To hunt ethically, you need to stay under 600-yards. Deer, elk, caribou, antelope, wild sheep--I hunt them all about every year--do not stand still like people do, and they have a bad habit of moving right when you touch the trigger.
Your 140 gr. bullet weight is on the ragged edge of not not being heavy enough. The retained energy at 800 yards is marginal.
well how do you figure its marginal? it retains 1383 ft/lbs at 800 and 1105 ft/lbs at 1000 Also, you do not have a .7 BC. Period. You don't have it with a G1 or G7 drag coefficient.
the berger 140 has a published G1 BC of .612, extensive testing while establishing my trajectory came up with an actual BC of .7 in other words to make my chart match my trajectory I had to bump the BC up or I was shooting 1/2 moa high out to my max. distance of 1100 yards. so do I have a BC of .7? couldn't care less what it is, long as the bullet goes where I want it
Using a factory trigger on a game animal at long is unwise, and in fact, unethical.
my smith tuned trigger breaks right at 2#, wouldn't want it less than that for hunting in the cool mornings wearing gloves, your ethics are yours, not mine thank you very much
Listen to me or not.
Bronc
RR
Last edited by Ridge Runner; 11-22-2015 at 02:13 AM.
11-22-2015, 04:43 AM
#37
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,646
11-22-2015, 08:32 AM
#38
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: ****ifornia
Posts: 5,052
I'm not sure how you figure James' 6.5 140gr bullet doesn't have enough energy??? Deer don't wear body armor. My little ol .243 Ack with a 105gr will do the job on a deer out to a grand
If you really don't think his 6.5 has enough energy, then ask him about his 7mm AM...it'll make your 300 Winny look like a rimfire...
The difference between myself and James and you is that OUR guns are coming out of OUR paychecks so we do the research and get the best rifles we can afford to get the job done, and we get it done very well. My .284 wildcat that is being built right now has a $900 barrel on it, that's just the blank, before any machine work is done to it
11-22-2015, 09:15 AM
#39
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,186
Here's my take. I do my very best to take only those shots that I a 100% certainthat I can make. Have I missed or made a bad placement .... sure. But thankfully in 50+ years of hunting deer, only a handful of times. Adn I wish it was zero, but it is not.
I shoot a good bit, but have never practiced any length of time at distances farther than 400 yards. I'd say 90% of my practicing is at 200 yards. Why such a short limit? Becasue almost every shot that I will ever get at deer where I hunt will be 200 yards or less.
If I hunted a great deal where clear shots were often at 300-400-500 yards etc., I would practice at those distances. And maybe I could get good at it .... even at 67 !! Until then, I will be content to simply admire those who can make those long shots and will stay within my 300 yards or so.
But at the same time .... I will rail against those who do not that the time prepare well so that they can make clean kills , regardless of distance. Lord knows we hunters owe it to the wild game that we choose to take to be dang good at making a quick kill.
I shoot a good bit, but have never practiced any length of time at distances farther than 400 yards. I'd say 90% of my practicing is at 200 yards. Why such a short limit? Becasue almost every shot that I will ever get at deer where I hunt will be 200 yards or less.
If I hunted a great deal where clear shots were often at 300-400-500 yards etc., I would practice at those distances. And maybe I could get good at it .... even at 67 !! Until then, I will be content to simply admire those who can make those long shots and will stay within my 300 yards or so.
But at the same time .... I will rail against those who do not that the time prepare well so that they can make clean kills , regardless of distance. Lord knows we hunters owe it to the wild game that we choose to take to be dang good at making a quick kill.
11-22-2015, 09:35 AM
#40
Spike
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 40
This is a very common occurrence in the profession, (every profession, in fact.)
1) Party 1 (usually a ranking officer or supervisor) *think* they have expertise, *think* they know something about something, and when they ask for an opinion they *think* they already know the answer;
2) Party 2 gives them a professional opinion;
3) Party 1 doesn't like what he hears, because he *thinks* he has expertise and knows something about something;
4) Party 1 (and his friends) get all haired up over what they hear and then start attacking Party 2;
5) Party 1 makes the call because he is the ranking officer or supervisor;
6) That decision results in horrible, FUBAR consequences, and the whole operation becomes a CF.
7) The unit ends up doing what Party 2 suggested in the first place, and that whole evolution is never spoken of again.
Yep! This seems VERY familiar...
Listen son, game animals are not paper targets that exist for your amusement. You should have a strongly held ethical commitment to making near instantly fatal hits on target. Deer do not live so you can wound them at 800-yards. A 140-gr. bullet has the same energy at 800-1000 yards as a 9mm pistol does at the muzzle. There is a VERY GOOD reason why the 9mm is not a legal round to harvest big game nearly everywhere.
Big game (as I've already said) and especially large-antlered big game do not stand still like paper targets. They are usually on the move, in bullet deflecting brush. Also, when you are hunting, you're never shooting off a bench, you're never sandbagged in, your heartbeat is never steady and calm, etc, etc, etc.
You're going to do what you're going to do. But when you blow the leg of a really good deer at 800-yards because you saw, Quigley Down Under and wanted to be like him and you're stumbling around looking for a blood trail and you're crying and feeling like a dirtbag and a criminal, YOU, YOURSELF will be solely to blame. Or maybe you won't cry, or feel like a dirtbag, or criminal, but then, what will THAT say about you?
Stick to 600-yard shots and under: you will safely enjoy both worlds that way. I've killed twelve (12) 160" B&C bucks or better and the longest shot was 302-yards, and the vast majority have been under 120-yards. The longest shot I've ever taken on a big game animal was 407-yards by the laser on a B&C caribou on Adak. When you think about it, if you can't consistently get within a quarter mile (440-yards) of the game that you are hunting maybe you shouldn't be in the woods.
All my Best,
Bronc
1) Party 1 (usually a ranking officer or supervisor) *think* they have expertise, *think* they know something about something, and when they ask for an opinion they *think* they already know the answer;
2) Party 2 gives them a professional opinion;
3) Party 1 doesn't like what he hears, because he *thinks* he has expertise and knows something about something;
4) Party 1 (and his friends) get all haired up over what they hear and then start attacking Party 2;
5) Party 1 makes the call because he is the ranking officer or supervisor;
6) That decision results in horrible, FUBAR consequences, and the whole operation becomes a CF.
7) The unit ends up doing what Party 2 suggested in the first place, and that whole evolution is never spoken of again.
Yep! This seems VERY familiar...
Listen son, game animals are not paper targets that exist for your amusement. You should have a strongly held ethical commitment to making near instantly fatal hits on target. Deer do not live so you can wound them at 800-yards. A 140-gr. bullet has the same energy at 800-1000 yards as a 9mm pistol does at the muzzle. There is a VERY GOOD reason why the 9mm is not a legal round to harvest big game nearly everywhere.
Big game (as I've already said) and especially large-antlered big game do not stand still like paper targets. They are usually on the move, in bullet deflecting brush. Also, when you are hunting, you're never shooting off a bench, you're never sandbagged in, your heartbeat is never steady and calm, etc, etc, etc.
You're going to do what you're going to do. But when you blow the leg of a really good deer at 800-yards because you saw, Quigley Down Under and wanted to be like him and you're stumbling around looking for a blood trail and you're crying and feeling like a dirtbag and a criminal, YOU, YOURSELF will be solely to blame. Or maybe you won't cry, or feel like a dirtbag, or criminal, but then, what will THAT say about you?
Stick to 600-yard shots and under: you will safely enjoy both worlds that way. I've killed twelve (12) 160" B&C bucks or better and the longest shot was 302-yards, and the vast majority have been under 120-yards. The longest shot I've ever taken on a big game animal was 407-yards by the laser on a B&C caribou on Adak. When you think about it, if you can't consistently get within a quarter mile (440-yards) of the game that you are hunting maybe you shouldn't be in the woods.
All my Best,
Bronc
Last edited by Broncazonk; 11-22-2015 at 10:50 AM.