Here, let me make it easy for you. I may not be perfect but I do my best.


http://www.thehuntingbeast.com/viewt...?f=287&t=20759

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/big-...lk-2015-a.html

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum...now-track-buck

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...ighlight=moose

http://www.thehuntingbeast.com/viewt...?f=287&t=27058

http://www.thehuntingbeast.com/viewt...?f=287&t=22761

Yeah, we all know your ridiculous opinion by now which wouldn't be so bad if you didn't tell others that if they don't do it your way they have have less skills than you. I have been known to get into disputes with Ridge Runner, however, knowing where he lives and reading his posts for a couple of years, it is pretty obvious he has hunting skills, I suspect they are substantially better than yours and also suspect his shooting ability is better than yours, in fact I am pretty sure there are lots of folks here who have better than hunting skills than you do which makes your snobbish arrogance all the more hard to swallow.

I don't dispute that there are many far better hunters out there than me. RR is probably a better hunter and a far better shot. But I still don't have to agree with how he does things, I still don't understand the motivation, and if that makes me a snob in your books then so be it. Where I live it is legal to drive a pickup truck around on fire roads all day, jump out, and shoot a deer. Just because its legal does that mean I have to condone it?

I seem to remember writing the following in Post 40, (with proper punctuation and capitalization nonetheless!)

"Listen ...Deleted by CalHunter...

"Deer do not live so you can wound them at 800 yards."
If I poke a deer at 800 yards, that is my business. I disengage the sear, it falls over. If you are not capable of it, quit criticizing us who can. I have been hunting for over 50 years, and can track and jump bedded deer or whatever I am after. I was on a trap line when I was 5 years old and was hunting by myself at 10. Just because there are some that can connect 100% of the time at seriously long ranges doesn't make us a poor hunter. The skill and time invested makes us better hunters in my opinion. Come out to the prairies and hunt the stubble, and then judge, or better yet, stay in your little world and be happy.

That's a valid question regardless of the weapon or distance! Stay within your skill set!

You do realize you are Party 1 in this scenario, right? :poke::bash:

Easy now, it makes you a better shooter(which I support and think is pretty impressive) not a better hunter.

You might be a great hunter but that alone only makes you a better shooter.

Having hunted prairie lands in North and South Dakota, Kansas, Colorado, New Mexico,and Alaska as well as HUGE fields in many other states, I have yet to find the need to take shots longer than 400 yards. In my younger days when I was "feeling my oats" so to speak, I would take some of those impressive long shots on Elk across canyons and such but I was also trained in the shooting arts since I had the standing upright thing down pat. Those were many many years ago and I have grown as a hunter. Your talking about grasslands and stubble fields like that makes it impossible to get within 400 yards? RR and a few others CHOOSE to make shots at those ridiculous ranges because that's what they WANT to do. There is absolutely NO NEED for it. Getting to 400 and under in range is easily done even on speed goats! So redgreen, I'll mirror what Rock said, it doesn't make you a better HUNTER, it makes you a better SHOOTER. A better HUNTER can get within reasonable range of an animal without having to take shots past 400 yards. I'm not knocking RR as what he is doing is perfectly legal and he is well practiced at long range shooting but that doesn't mean in ANY way he is a better HUNTER. It just means he is an accomplished SHOOTER. But for the record, most all of his long range kills are for "crop damage" deer (if I have been reading his posts correctly) so he is doing his neighbors a service by eliminating pest deer. WV has a pretty badly out of kilter deer population. I believe when he goes out to actually HUNT for his own buck tags and such, he goes after them at reasonable ranges where he is also successful.

907 yards...270 Wby, 150gr ABLR, Defiance action, Benchmark barrel, McMillan Hunter, Jewell trigger, Huskemaw scope, ONE SHOT...not a cent of taxpayer money spent on it.

I guess we aren't hunters tho, only shooters. I guess the other deer we got under 200 yards would mean we are hunters?

No, you shot it, killed it, and ate it right? That makes you a hunter and it is asinine to deny that.



7 yards with an arrow. I believe hunting this deer was much more challenging but I believe shooting your deer was much more challenging do you agree or disagree?

I would never argue you were not a hunter(I'm not sure if you were addressing my comment or not) but its not rocket science.....Its more challenging to hunt deer at 7 yards with a bow and more challenging to shoot a deer at 900 yards with a rifle.

Both ways are hunting and both present their own challenges and commitment.

In all actuality Jeep, yep! Picking off long range targets is shooting. Getting to reasonable ranges requires HUNTING skills. That isn't meant as a disparaging statement Jeep, just actual definition of the words. BTW, nice buck and nice shot!

When RR is doing his deer control, he isn't hunting, he already knows where those deer are showing up and he chooses to set up long range rather than getting in close and taking any chances of them winding him or anything so he can eliminate a deer or 2 for the farmers. YOU chose to pick off that buck at long range rather than attempting to get close and run the risk that your "hunting" skills weren't up to snuff. That's actually my own thought processes when I choose to take a shot out to 350-400 yards. I could probably get closer, but if that buck or doe is looking a bit skiddish and I want that particular animal, be it Elk or Whitetail, then I may choose to take the longer shot. Could be the wind is shifty that day or, as I previously mentioned, it was already skiddish.

I wasn't directing it towards you.

That's a nice buck. Ironically the first deer I shot with a bow was the first deer I lost. I haven't hunted with a bow since. :mad:

Awww Jeep, you should have stuck with it. BowHunting is the absolute best thrill ride in the hunting world! Except for Really early archery seasons in places like Louisiana and Pa where the damn skeeters and such should be filing flight plans with the FAA! BUT, just like long range shooting, archery DEMANDS lots of practice to become proficient in delivering a clean and quick kill.

I do think people greatly underestimate just how hard it is to shoot 900 yards with consistent accuracy.

I can get close to deer but to kill one at 800 yds would be way more than I could accomplish. I admit I am a hunter not a shooter. A 100-200 yd shot isn't a problem for me. Anything beyond that range would require me to develop some added expertise. I just never needed to develop that skill set and have no experience with it. My average rifle/ ML shot has been less than 75 yds over 55 years of hunting. I have many bow kills and all were within 35 yds with most being around 20. Even my late in life fascination with western hunting has taken all my elk at under 125 yds. Kudos to those who explore new horizons.

For Heaven's sake! What do you think Kansas looks like, son? That's a serious question.

Bronc

Yeah my buddies keep trying to talk me into it but I'm the type that goes "all in" when I do something and I won't have time to become great with a bow AND stay proficient with a rifle. Dang full time job and kids get in the way of all the fun stuff!!!

Here is the problem with that truism. At long range, regardless of the conditions, you never know that you're outside your skill set until you blow the leg off a deer or gut shoot one. That's when it dawns on you, only then.

And this scenario doesn't apply exclusively to long and very long ranges. In lots of situations, in field conditions, experts can be far beyond their shooting ability at 75-yards. That's why we have to think, act and shoot ethically. The risk of harm is too great not to do otherwise.

Which brings us full circle. Game animals are not targets that exist for our shooting amusement. If you enjoy shooting at extreme range use clay plates as targets.

Bronc

Ok Bronc you made your point. It is certainly your opinion and you made it.

Yes, and ad nausium!

first off I'm not your son, so refrain from calling me that
and the recommended amount of ft/lbs required to kill a deer is 1000 so my marginal gibbs is sufficient to beyond 1100 yards.
every human has some amount of grief when ending another animals life, I'm no different but we have an overpopulation here, our area can sustain 18 deer per square mile, we have an average of 40 per square mile and without vigorous management the population will double every 2 years, so yes I kill a lot of does, 8-10 a year some years.
as far a 5.5 year old bucks, they do not exist here, they just don't live that long, they stress themselves out so much during the rut that they die their 5th winter, you according to your posts are the best there is with a rifle, but you do not have enough confidance in your ability to shoot game past 600 yards, so you pull your ethics card and call me a wannabe, suit yourself, but you have hit me with marginal equipment, ethics, I'm a phycho, anything else you want to add before I put you on ignore?
RR

One member is on a week-long timeout for violating several rules. You can disagree, have different opinions, believe in different things but you don't get to violate the rules or insult other members. Those are (and have been) the same rules that each of us agreed to obey when we became members and are the same ones since the beginning of this website.

People have posted about what their personal range limit is for shooting a deer while they are deer hunting and their opinion that shooting beyond that distance limit is somehow not hunting. It's still hunting although maybe a different kind of hunting. People have mentioned distance limits of 600, 450, 400, 200 and even 75 yards (for a bad shot) and espoused that shooting beyond that self-imposed limit is just shooting and not hunting or at least not using hunting skills.

According to at least some of these posts, you are no longer hunting if you shoot beyond the above self-imposed distances. So 600 yards is still hunting but 601 yards magically becomes non-hunting. And the same apparently for 451, 401 and 201 yards (the 75-yard hunter was depicted as already missing at that range). Kind of silly.

The Bowhunter would tell all of us rifle hunters that we're not doing real hunting and so would the pistol hunter, crossbow hunter, spear hunter and even the falconer. Cr422 (in his alter ego that was TMI) would say that all of us are really hunting.

Each of us hunts--we just do it differently. Some use bait, some stalk and spot, some use dogs, some sit on their back deck, etc. It's all still hunting. Each of us, in each of these ways, is matching wits with animal(s) that can see, hear and smell better and we're doing it in their own backyard, not ours. We don't always get get an animal but that's why they call it hunting and not just killing, etc. :D

I'm calling foul on that one Cal. At what point does one define hunting over shooting? My own personal belief is when one is completely and totally out of an animals awareness and senses boundaries and there is absolutely no way that animal could spot you, wind you, or have any way of knowing you are in his world, that becomes shooting. Archery, we go up in a tree, get in a blind, use scent control, and every other thing that's been thought of to FOOL those senses but those animals still have a HUGE chance of winding or seeing you or hearing you. (Anyone that says deer don't look up hasn't been in the woods). In firearms you are looking at around 400 yards or so for MOST big game. 600 for speed goats and those binocular eyes.

To me, hunting isn't just the "taking of game". It's also the woods craft and everything else involved to get within a reasonable range of an animal. The MAIN problem I have with a LOT of the "long range shooters" I have stated several times. Time factor for bullet flight and that animal's movement DURING that time can NOT be accounted for 100%. PERIOD. Animals move. Yes you can somewhat determine an animals posture and state of relaxation and can get a good idea about it's possible movements but the fact remains, you can NOT know if that deer is about to take a little step that would make that perfect shot you just sent turn into a gut shot. It happens.

In my own little opinion, you aren't matching wits with an animal if you are taking 700-1000+ yard shots on them. You are matching wits with yourself and your own personal boundaries for distance. They can't smell, see, or hear you at those distances so just how are you matching wits with them?

Fact is, there are just too many folks out there that believe that they have WAY more skill than they actually have. The comment about most folks against long range shots are "jealous" may apply to some but you can dang sure bet it doesn't apply to me. I was shooting long range before most of these guys on here were a gleam in their mammies eye and can still bang the gong at 1000 yards even being as old as dirt!

There is a pretty big difference between hunting and shooting and I'd pretty much bet that RR would agree with that statement. His own comment earlier about setting up 700+ yards off a field with a group of folks around there having a party and taking shots on deer would pretty much nail that opinion down don't ya think? Would you still call that "hunting" Cal or would you call that "shooting"?

Like you said SH 54 it is your opinion. We all have them and that is what separates us all and make us individuals. There are always boundaries that separate what any of us determine to be Ok and not. To a trad hunter a 30 yd shot might be stretching it but a 350 fps modern compound in the hands of an experienced archer it is a slam dunk. The animal moving or jumping the string after the shot is more of an issue with slow bows than the new X-fast ones and distance compounds the problem. I am a still hunter and spend most of the day on my feet working swamps and thicker areas hoping to see a deer before they see me. Just the way I learned to hunt the great north woods of New England. Some people around here have taken the mid west method of building elevated shooting shacks over food plots. They have heat with sliding windows and certainly take the stealth and scent issue off the table. Not my preferred way to hunt but since it is legal I consider it ethical for those who choose to hunt that way. My own opinion is that isn't for me and that goes to show there are many ways to peel the onion. That being said it would be wrong for me to attack, insult or diminish others who choose to legally hunt in a way I don't follow. We all have a right to voice our opinion but there is a line where that crosses over to flaming. The topic of long range shooting is certainly controversial and has in the past resulted in threads going south. Lets all work to keep it within the rules.

Fair enough SuperHunt but let's look at it in context. I'm not trying to bust your chops because I know what you're saying but I am outlining the other side of the same coin so to speak.

You mentioned a limit of 400 yards as being the limit you use. So for you, anything over 400 yards, even just 401 yards is "not hunting." Move closer to 399 yards and you're hunting. Find yourself at 400 yards and it's time to call the line refs with the measuring line, maybe a rangefinder. I'm parsing a bit here of course but the idea of a limit line or distance limit can be arbitrary. I've had deer spot or notice me a lot further away than 400 yards or even 401 yards. I am not trying to disparage your self imposed limit but some deer will see you further away and some won't. And sometimes a buck might not see you past 100 yards. A lot depends on the terrain, wariness of the buck, your movement or lack of it, etc.

Personally, I feel very comfortable shooting at 400 yards. But a guy with a 200-yard self imposed limit might accuse both of us of "not hunting" because we're on the edge of your "average" distance where deer stop noticing people. A bowhunter would say we're both cheating big time because we're obviously way past his 40 or 50-yard self imposed limit. And cr422 might accuse all of us of not being real hunters because we're using some kind of weapon we weren't born with. :s3:

My point is that each of us has our own self-imposed limits and that's okay. It can be a distance at the edge of our shooting ability, where we think we start gaining an advantage because a buck can't see us or maybe a mixture of both. Yet each of us, regardless of our self-imposed limits, has to find a buck first and still maneuver within our self determined shooting distance limit. At 800 yards, you still can't just ditty bop up to a shooting location and expect a buck not to notice you. You may (or may not) crawl, sneak, etc. up to the shooting location as far as somebody with a 400--yard limit or a 200-yard limit, etc. but you still have to be stealthy and exercise some caution and discretion.

So it's a different kind of hunting maybe and RR might not crawl as far as either of us (or maybe he crawls even further, kind of depends on the terrain) but the bottom line is he's not just driving up to some tower or shooting platform, sipping his latte while he places his rifle on some shooting stand brace and capping off a round at some deer who would have to be blind.

I don't bowhunt although I'd like to try it some day. I don't bag on other hunters for bowhunting. I don't hold it against other hunters for imposing a distance limit on their shots as I think anybody should know their own limits. If RR can make such shots and is killing the does, bucks, etc. cleanly and not just wounding animals, then I support that.

It's that killing the animal cleanly that I use to judge another hunter's self imposed limits. Killing an animal cleanly includes, animal movements, wind, brush and anything else that might interfere with the shot. If you can't kill a buck cleanly past 100 yards (for whatever reason), then that should be your self imposed limit.

Each of us has the right to our opinions and that is what RR asked for. I fully support your opinion SH and were it not for this being about RR specifically, I would find myself agreeing with you for about 90% or so of hunters as most cannot reliably kill an animal cleanly past 400 yards or so. I also happen to support RR's opinion as it pertains to him specifically.

As far as RR's recitation of the demonstration or "party" he had with several people watching, etc., no, that instance sounded more like shooting than hunting. But it's not logical to extend that single instance to every single shot/kill that RR makes. He shoots at different distances and some might even be shorter. For me to pass a different judgment on his hunting, I would have to know a lot more and probably actually watch a hunt or 2. that doesn't lend itself to argufying on a message board with people you don't hunt with but that's just my professional training and experience kicking in. :s4:

Hunting is the pursuit of wild game....We don't get to just change what the word means

Kudos sir!!! Far more eloquent and succinct than I. :D

At the end of the day, knowing you're not subject to other peoples standards and they're not subject to yours, can be quite liberating.

To be fair, he did ask for it, it was delivered. This is not a conversation I would have indulged in had the op not asked.

This is almost exactly what I was trying to say in my first post.

Today I took my 13 yo nephew hunting, he wanted to take a deer at a longer distance than he is use to seeing, so we hit the place where I take most beginners, the shots there average 300-600 yards, since he was very inexperienced I set the max limit for him at 500 yards, 9 different times we got set up on deer from 430 to 504 yards, you all think the deer doesn't have a chance to escape need to get out and try LR whitetail hunting in the timber, the tenth time we set up the deer finaly hit an open hole at 470 yards and he took out both shoulders and we found her 30 feet from impact. they either bedded in cover as we watched, walked behind a tree and never came out or just sauntered along till they were out of site. so before your convinced its not ethical, take a pair of binocs,a LRF, and your rifle to the woods, find a deer at 500 yards, range it, get the crosshairs on it and see how many clear shots you get in a day, don't shoot if ya don't want but see how many "killing" shot opprotunities you get, then tell me how easy it is.
RR

I'm not saying it isn't difficult, I'm just saying that you are dodging many of the complications of hunting at closer ranges. Which, in some of our opinions... which you requested, makes for poor hunting although the shooting might have been great.

I can take game cleanly at a mere 300 yards with my hunting setup from an unsupported field position, but you will never find me setting up just so I can shoot at the edge of my range and give myself a pat on the back, many of us kill deer for very different reasons than whatever drives you to make these long range kills.

don't believe I'm patting myself on the back, you've read my position, stated yours so thanks. What I have done is worked my tail off, spent a lot of time and money to figure out what a well tuned rifle is capable of, and I teach others, our season came in Monday, 3 other hunters have harvested deer with my rifle, my nephew wants to learn more about how bullets work, others just learned the difference between an accurate rifle with a good optic versus a remchesterburgavage with a trashco or simmons.
family members watched as a shot a crow at 510 yards, they learned how well a rifle can shoot. For years wv allowed hunters to shoot deer from a bait station, put a treestand at the pile and shoot them at 30-50 yards, it takes years to learn how to hunt, I try to teach marksmanship which is becoming a lost art.


I'd like to address this comment, maybe I dodge some complications as you call them, the sense of smell, well I'm not winded often, but hunting from a stand you have options, such as only hunt this stand on a northeast wind, that is also dodging a complication correct? hearing nope theydon't hear me but your quiet when on the stand?
I also have to take tempature, barometric pressure, at certain times humidity and the amout the earth rotates on its axis during the time of flight, also I have to take time to get set up for each different situation, I have to make these calls on the wing not the day before when checking accueweather. the complications I dodge bring on many more that puts the pressure of success or failure on me, its a challenge I put against myself, not some dumb animal, they can't reason every movement they make comes through instinct, what mother nature has taught them over thousands of years, as a human if you can't get around animal instincts, keep your composer to successfully hunt deer, I'm sorry, I killed over 200 deer before I started long range hunting, it ain't that hard.
RR

I "assume" you mean free hand / off hand at 300 yards ??

Now that's some good shootin' !!!

:fighting0007:

I don't believe a single person commenting on this thread has said it wasn't difficult RR. My main problem with it is the actual difficult nature of long range shots and animals movements! Most aren't equipped both in equipment or ability. Some just THINK they are. They go out and buy a high dollar custom rifle with a super duper scope and they think they can just magically make a 700+ yard shot! You know as well as I do that aint the fact there Jack! I have a custom .30-06 I built years ago that I would be supremely confident with at 800 yards as far as shot making as I put them in the ring or on the steel all the time with her. But I still wouldn't go past 400 on live game. Yes Cal I know, that's my own personal restrictions and I shouldn't try to force them on others which I am not trying to do here. RR does his thing during population control hunts for the most part and as I have previously said, he is doing a service. But there are just too many idiots out there that think they have the skills because they saw it done on Youtube and bought a high dollar rig. We've all seen them. RR has personally ran into many I'm sure as I have. Most of those guys couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle! Then you have the guys out there that have practiced some from a bench and think they can make those same shots under field conditions. OOPS again!

Yes the Hunting vs. Shooting subject can be and usually is highly subjective and is all about each individuals ethics. But the fact remains that there are situations where it is just plain old "turkey shoots" and RR can tell you the same thing. Example, you have a field that the farmer tells you deer are there every day at a certain time frame, you have a nice little rise about 600-700 yards off, no trees or underbrush getting between you and those deer. That's shooting. Granted yes longer ranges and still in a high difficulty factor, but it's still just shooting. But in all reality, that's the same comparison that can be made to me scouting all summer, finding where the trails intersect from bedding to food, setting up a tree stand, trimming some shooting lanes, and setting up for a 40 or under shot for archery. See I aint totally ignorant Cal, I see the comparisons on both sides of the stories.

RR asked for comments and opinions. He was given comments and opinions. I didn't knock him personally as I know he is a good shot and does all he can, including waiting patiently for that shot, to make clean quick kills. And he will "fess up" to his "other than perfect" shots as well.

All we can do, as moral hunters, is to try to teach the new generations values and ethics in hunting so they don't make those terrible mistakes such as wounding our beloved game animals. We owe them, both the hunters and the wild game, nothing less.

Just got home from a session out in the field dialing in "ole smokey". Got her ready for the ML season in a week and a half. Getting antsy and looking to hunt. Just waiting for tags to come into season. Glad to see the thread is ongoing and staying on the right side of civility.

Super, excellent post, I do not know about all the guys buying a rifle and trying it with no knowledge I have a group of guys I work with, they practiced for 2 years before attempting a shot long enough it required dialing, every person that I take out, they have agreed to some rules, they shoot my rifle, they are given a crash course about setting the parralex, and they perform the action several times and I inspect the results, if they fail then I set the parralex for them. they do not fire till I give the command to "send it"
this way I feel they can learn more, harvest a deer and not go home disappointed.
I have spent thousands of hours watching whitetails through glass, I can see the shot window developing, I can tell when the shot window is there, the deer is relaxed weight back on the front feet, it is then and only then I give the command.
usualy you can tell who is truly interested in learning, of dozens of people who call me and state that they wanna shoot long range and they were told to call me, my first comment is you'll need to spend at least 3 grand, those who I get a return call from do well.
RR

Sounds like a whole new hobby with a ton of room for improvement and learning. I have to ask what are the realistic limits to success as far as target shooting. With ballistics in mind... just how far can one expect to have accuracy? Shooting long distance on game here in Vt isn't practical since the fields are small and the woods are thick so any education I would get would be for targets.