Maybe you should read a little more and see what they've said about their long range shots. Because any of those conditions, they wouldn't be taking the shot.
-Jake

I don't think I've seen/heard a SINGLE statement ("mishap") that couldn't of taken place to a less than proficient shooter at 100 yards.

Remember - Take the shot you know you can make, NOT the one you think you can make !!!

BTW - I "think" most of us on here know the difference between shooting paper and game animals ??

Jake, you are simultaneously missing the point and making the case.

1) Big game and especially large-antlered big game do not stand still like paper targets--they are usually on the move, in bullet deflecting timber or brush.

2) No. 1 above is Ridge Runners operational environment. That's the reality. It's just the way it is. It's not going to change. It's ALWAYS going to be that way.

3) Given his operational environment, the range at which Ridge Runner can successfully and ethically engage his quarry is reduced to about 200-yards.

4) Ridge Runner insists on shooting at deer at 800-1000 yards.

5) What is the product of this equation?

All of the above does not apply if Ridge Runner has a couple of corn feeders strategically placed at the edge of a field at LRF determined distances from a shooting bench (or his back porch) and "hunting" is defined by Ridge Runner as shooting does and 1.5 y.o. bucks at 800-1000 yards that are standing innocently under said feeders munching on corn.

Bronc

Bronc,

Maybe you oughta READ some of RR's posts about how he takes his shots. Or maybe take a gander over to Longrangehunting.com and read up a little bit over there...there's much more to shooting and LR hunting then you'll learn from the Army marksmanship manual...

:sign0018: So instead of having a good argument you attack what may be a perfectly legal method of hunting? :bash: I don't bait, but if it's legal and a hunter wants to that's fine. Likewise with shooting young deer. If it's legal, it's legal bud:busted:. Stick to the topic and leave your opinions out if we're discussing facts. When people run out of solid ground to stand on they revert to attacking other things that have nothing to do with the topic. Such as the age of the animal. :pcwhack::throw: I included some graphics to aid with reading comprehension :s4: ... but mainly because I'm bored at work.
-Jake

And jeepkid, you need to Google, "Quantico." http://www.quantico.marines.mil/

And "Lejeune," https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine...e_Camp_Lejeune


Bronc

I couldn't care less...it's always the same argument...military knows everything about shooting and civilians know nothing...Have fun shooting your taxpayer bought rebarrelled Sendero, we shall continue doing what we do also, except with better equipment and more skill.

Later.

I think the statement in bold says it all. For me to take a 500 yd shot would be unethical because my equipment and experience on LR shooting is limited. My belief from reading these forums for all these years is that there are some fortunate hunters who have the eyesight, equipment and discipline to shoot better than I do. It would be wrong for me to call them anything other than experts. I am sure there are plenty of military snipers who wouldn't blink an eye on a 1000 yd target. Is it so unbelievable that a non military hunter could achieve that level of expertise?

My little twin Grandsons could teach better marksmanship than ARMY :D But Marine rifle training is a good bit better :s4:


Now Now Jeepers lets not start the Military bashing fella. Not all of us military gentlemen are like that and you know it.

IMO if you can figure out a way to reliably kill them dead, you are good to go. Just putting a bullet in them isn't actually the task, putting them down is.

I shot a really old Doe awhile back. She was really sneaky. I'd hunted this large lease for years and had never seen her before and she was right in the middle of a 3200 acre lease.

She was obviously on her last legs, she was skin and bones. I put her down, just so she wouldn't get sick and possibly spread it around.

I found a bullet lodged in her lower jaw, it had been in there for a long time. It was abscessed and the bone was dissolving. Stuff like this just makes me sad.

The military taught me to put a round in a man sized target at 500 yards. I taught myself how to put it in their ear. :)

All you guys are just novices anyway, we used to chop off 2X4's at 1200 meters just to get sighted in. Tankers have bigger guns. ;)

Not bashing, just calling it like it is. I've seen it too many times. Between shooting and flying both...it's always the same argument.

He finds it unethical to shoot game animals at extended ranges, that's fine he can have that opinion. But when he comes on here with a list of questions that we answer above what he was expecting he goes straight to attacks on killing "baby deer" instead of having a sound discussion...

And this statement almost sounds like an "Anti" !!! :confused0024:

I suspect he is not even a hunter, just a troll.

Well, my passion is flintlocks and through the years I have had people say that a round ball isn't ethical for killing whitetails...

I just ignore them... ;)

I doubt that he has been around a while, and I read some of his older posts and he offered some very good info. I believe he just has a strong opinion and voices it....sound familiar.:lmao:

Nope it does not, his opinion is irrational and based on zero knowledge of the ability of those he is criticizing. I think you are confusing him with another member with a screen name of Bronko.

Here are a couple of my posts from 2012. Enjoy!

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/3947975-post26.html

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/3947977-post27.html

These are not the big deer, just good ones.

And getting called a troll is EXACTLY the reason why people who actually know what they are talking about rarely post.

All my Best, and Good Luck This Season!!

Bronc

Ridge, I'm attempting to be friendly to you...Please keep that in mind.

What I'm drawing attention to is the notion of fairness. As I say, there is a gray area.

My thoughts on camo, scents, and tree stands: I think one can cross a line with those. I say it's best to evaluate it case by case.

My biggest issue would be with scents. I'm not sure how they represent skill or hunter effort. Scent control products start getting problematic, too.

With camo, you still have to use a little brain power to get a match and you still have to be stealthy. Tree stands do require the hunter to put it up, place it in a good location, etc. There's still a skill element involved.

Again, the exact boundaries are not clear. I do think they are worth thinking about as we consider our hunting methods. Fair chase is a key part of all of this.

The difference is you don't know what you're talking about...so yep, if the troll shoe fits then velcro that thing up and keep on walking.

Ridge Runner--if you can shoot deer from afar and do it well, then have at it. If that talent leaves you, then you will know when it does and I suspect that you will act accordingly. Enjoy.

wow, the6.5 being marginal went straight to I/m hunting overbait all I can say is bronco bring the 300 winny on, maybe you can learn something, even if you feel you know all there is.
jeep wasn't blowing smoke about my 7mm AM, it will run a 160 accubond at 3575 or a 180 berger at 3300, its taken deer at .77 miles, I respect the military guys but they aren't the only ones who can shoot.
RR

Trying to impose your ethics on someone else for behavior that is legal is being a bit presumptuous to say the least. As Clint said so well in Magnum Force, a man's got to know his limitations. Distance, camo, scents, even baiting, etc.--If it's legal, it's likely legal for a reason. If it's not your cup of tea, don't do it. If it exceeds your skill set (distance mainly), then don't do it. People that bow-hunt would say all of you are taking some unfair advantage. People that only use a knife would cast aspersions on a bow-hunter.

Each of us that hunts has an ethical responsibility to only take shots that we think we have a high probability of making, whether with a rifle, bow, pistol, spear, etc. It isn't what platform you use since they're all legal--It's how well you can use it.

The distance for those high probability shots can vary from member to member and hunter to hunter. Some people put in extensive time, training, equipment, money, etc. and practice, practice, practice until their operational distance is much further. Some people (like another member already stated) only fire a handful of rounds a year and have a much shorter operational distance.

RR has posted on this board for a long time and has outlined his preparation, practices and hunting ethics on multiple occasions. The members who know him well (including me) have been satisfied with his proficiency and ethics. Every now and then, somebody will attack him for his hunting distances. It never seems to fail that after 10, 20, 50 or more pages of argument and bantering, the real reason comes out. That person criticizing RR usually has their own self-imposed limits based on their own abilities and is now trying to impose their skillset limits on RR. Or maybe even just their beliefs and what they think is ethical.

If you can make the shots and consistently kill the animal cleanly at whatever range, it's ethical. It's legal and he's cleanly killing the animals. His shooting distances may not fit in with your ethics or somebody else's but it's still ethical as a hunter for him to shoot at those distances. And it's legal. You're entitled to have your own opinion and ethics but so is RR.

And to answer your OP question RR about why LR hunting is not ethical? Well, I think you already answered your own question in your first post. Often, it's because "those who know the least about what you do think they know the most." :s4:

just FYI, my little 140 gr bergers were marginal enough to make kills at 582, and 787 today
RR

Pretty easy when you're shooting babies over bait...

Yup, right here down town pumpkin central of a CWD containment area and I'm whackin milksuckers on a corn pile

he's digging deep but he never acknowledged my post about retained energy at 800 and 1k,
thought by his wording in his posts he was blowin smoke.
if he comments again I will in detail pick his posts apart.
RR

Sounds like a good day!
-Jake

IMO To me the act of big game hunting involves the reading of sign, the consideration of wind, the use of stealth. For me taking an animal involves immersing myself in the world of that animal, almost living the life of that animal for a period of time. When these things are not present, for me, it wasn't a good hunt. Shooting at extreme distances may take more shooting skill than it does to shoot a deer out of a pickup truck, but IMO it doesn't take a whole lot more hunting skill.

In your case RR, you seem to be one of those hunters that puts more effort into making extremely long shots happen than you do into closing the distance, or any of the other skills that I consider to be the mark of a good hunter. I wont call you a slob, or unethical, or wrong in any way, but from where I stand I feel that hunters like you are completely missing what I feel is "the point". Great shooting, poor hunting, I'd rather hear stories about 5 pin bowling than look at your cardboard score cards, if you shot them from 10 miles I still wouldn't care.

You are describing the challenge.
That is what RR is doing as well. Challenging himself to do better. With every shot.

Naw sconny, if his challenge is different than my challenge, it must not be a challenge!
-Jake

I see it the same way Sconney. My own way of hunting mirrors Exo's mostly because that's the way I was taught, always done and partly because I don't have the skills or specialized equipment for LR shooting. RR pushes his own personal envelope just as Exo does...just from different distances using other methods. I see similar comparisons with some sportsmen lobbing arrows with a trad bow while others buy $1200 carbon compounds shooting at 340 fps. Modern scoped in lines with the newest projectiles shoot 200 yds about as well as center fire rifles while the open sight flinters shooting a patched round ball are distance limited by their equipment. Respect given to everyone who pushes for more expertise using whatever technology or methods they own. Being open minded allows for many more options.

Well, you guys can talk all you want. But when I hunt, I go out naked and I kill my prey using only my bare hands and my teeth.

Of course I don't really do that, but it would be a real challenge. Right?

I've always hunted with a 50 caliber muzzleloader or a .30-30, so a thousand yard shot would be waaay out of the question. But if a guy has the equipment and the skills to do that, hey, go for it. Sounds like fun once you've mastered the skills.

Hunting presents lots of different kinds of challenges and different ways to have fun. My wife is very small, so she uses a 30 pound pull, youth bow. This means we have to get within 10-12 yards. We still hunt, so this involves crawling along on hands and knees, and sometimes on our bellies, for maybe an hour or two, to get a shot. At a thousand yards or better, the challenge is making the shot. You can't really miss at 10-12 yards, so the challenge is getting close enough to make the shot without spooking your target. Loads of fun. We hunt the same way with the muzzleloader. We don't have to get as close, but we have to get to a spot where she can shoot from the prone position, because the rifle is too heavy for her to use without support.(I carry it until we get to where we might have a shot.)

I sounds to me like RR has his technique down solid. So I'm giving him a thumbs-up.:happy0001:

Can't miss at 10 to 12 yds.......beg to differ. Had one memorable miss on a buck with my bow years ago that I wish I could get back. Not really sure what happened but he was right under the tree stand. Shot right over his back. Certainly operator error but I was looking for a reason to blame the bow...the weather...or a mystery bird flying down to divert the arrow. Clean miss etched in my memory which is sitting along with a lifetime of should have got hims.:bash:

Let's be honest. Hunting is about killing an animal within the laws set by the state. Period. EVERYTHING after that is personal choice to make it more enjoyable to the individual. Anyone who says else, is fooling themselves, if they were right, you'd hunt with a camera or just go without the gun/bow. Killing it the goal, period. There are MANY things along the way that make it a good hunt.

I bolded the above parts to highlight what your PERSONAL choices and preferences are. Personally I agree with you, the closer the better, I get more "freaked out" shooting one inside 20 yards with my bow than with my gun, but I enjoy both.

Would I like to try RR's way? Sure, I'm up for trying anything, but I don't have the skills or the tools to get the skills! Heck I can't find a gun range over 100 yards to shoot on!

I'd rather see RR's stories about his LONG shots, than the stories about "need help tracking" or the infamous "I must have hit void cause I couldn't find him" stories. The guy has a skill that allows him to hunt, and humanely kill deer in a way he chooses within the laws. My hats off to him!

My hat is also off to you for hunting as you enjoy!

Anybody ever question your methods in real life or just on the internet?

Some guys have the desire/skill, set up to hunt long range some guys at 10 yards with a bow, i can appreciate both. As a logger and hunter i find wasted deer in the woods from time to time and i check them out. Some are bad shots while some are good heart/lung shots lost to terrible tracking skills. To answer the OP's question on ethics, i think a good question we hunters should ask, is how many deer have you wounded/missed? It's easy to fondly remember that remarkable shot you made, but also easy to forget the deer you wounded or missed(maybe wounded?).

As long as its legal and the shooter is safe and within there abilities than ok but it would sure suck to be getting close to position for a shot with say a muzzle loader and have someone kill the elk/deer or what ever from 1000 yards away! I wouldn't get mad over it but would be frustrated. LOL!

"Originally Posted by Exophysical View Post
IMO To me the act of big game hunting involves the reading of sign, the consideration of wind, the use of stealth. For me taking an animal involves immersing myself in the world of that animal, almost living the life of that animal for a period of time. When these things are not present, for me, it wasn't a good hunt. Shooting at extreme distances may take more shooting skill than it does to shoot a deer out of a pickup truck, but IMO it doesn't take a whole lot more hunting skill.

In your case RR, you seem to be one of those hunters that puts more effort into making extremely long shots happen than you do into closing the distance, or any of the other skills that I consider to be the mark of a good hunter. I wont call you a slob, or unethical, or wrong in any way, but from where I stand I feel that hunters like you are completely missing what I feel is "the point". Great shooting, poor hunting, I'd rather hear stories about 5 pin bowling than look at your cardboard score cards, if you shot them from 10 miles I still wouldn't care".

By God gents, we seem to have picked up a perfect person along the way! If he disapproves of our hunting methods, we have no hunting skills. We should be truly humbled to be in the presence of such perfection! I do suspect though he doesn't continue with this fantasy wen the bullet comes crashing through the boiler room:"For me taking an animal involves immersing myself in the world of that animal, almost living the life of that animal for a period of time". I suggest he put down the books with all the flowery descriptions and definitions of what hunting is and refrain from trying to make himself feel better about taking an animals life. I am all for developing skills and have railed at times about electronic gadgets taking the place of skills leaving a person in trouble if the gadget fails and they have no skills to fall back on. However, the above isn't about skills, it is about idealistic snobbery and I recommend he gives up hunting if he doesn't enjoy it if all his requirements do not come together, because most times in hunting, if you are not flexible, you will fail, that and what he "feels" is his problem not ours. Then there is the question, is this guy real or just playing?

He who squawks loudest is jealous of the ability of us who can and do make the long shots with surgical precision. Back in the day, a sergeant buddy of mine would get real pissed at the 1000 yard range when I would outshoot him. I enjoy seeing the amazement in their faces when I crack a deer or elk at 600 to 800 yards. James has the skillset and knowledge to make these shots with ease. I have seen too many that figure if they hang an 8 1/2 x11 piece of paper at 100 yards and can hit it, they are good to go. That don't fly with me. I can hold 1.5" at 300 yards. My drop is 6.5" at 400 yards, 21" at 500 yards. The wind has to be perfect before I will shoot past 650. Ridge doesn't take shots that are a maybe. He connects, and has his winter meat supply. Where I live, the stubble fields are fenced sections. Each is a square mile or better. There is no cover, the critters are educated, and if you want to eat regularly, you had better be prepared and be able to make the long shots with no room for error. I get really annoyed at those that flame us for being unethical for doing what they can not. Those that hunt the wooded areas where they have never shot more than 150 yards cannot fathom a shot at half a mile or greater. 40 years ago, I did all of my hunting with my silhouette rifles, and shot extreme ranges all of the time. It still gives me a sense of pride that I can still do what I did 40 plus years ago. I am getting gimped up really bad now, and walking is pretty much a thing of the past. Now, if I see it, want it, the wind conditions are right, there is nothing behind the animal that I have to worry about, it is 700 yards out, I can get to it with the truck, it is on the ground. Saying that it is not ethical is a biased and hypocritical statement. Remember, those that can, do, and those that can't, teach, or PREACH.

It has gone on close to 9 pages with a vast majority of members showing support to RR for his accomplishments. As always there are some members with a dissenting view but I feel up to this point the forum has shown both sides without some of the emotional pitfalls often experienced in the past. Nice job on both sides.

I suggest you do a search of my posts, pretty easy since there isn't that many of them... its all there, in the posts and the links, once you have seen how I hunt then come back and call me a keyboard jockey if you still feel like it. Call me wrong if you want, do not blindly call me a hypocrite, I very much take offence to that.

RR asked for our opinions on what he does, I gave him mine. Seeing as he is hunting within the law all I can give him is MY reasons and MY OPINION... which is pretty much what everyone else here has done. I never told him he was wrong, I never told him to stop, I just told him why I disagree with it which is what he asked for. Pretty much for me it boils down to the obsession with distance, setting up specifically to shoot deer at extreme range rather than hunt them, if the long shots happened incidentally I would better understand it.

I still stand by my statement, hunting skill is in reading the sign, using stealth, playing the wind. When these things are being circumnavigated to any great degree, IMO one is not displaying the traits of a good hunter. There are plenty of ways for this to happen, and long range shooting is one of them.