question for all members
11-24-2015, 05:38 PM
#102
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,646
I seem to remember writing the following in Post 40, (with proper punctuation and capitalization nonetheless!)
"Listen son, game animals are not paper targets that exist for your amusement. You should have a strongly held ethical commitment to making near instantly fatal hits on target. Deer do not live so you can wound them at 800-yards. A 140-gr. bullet has the same energy at 800-1000 yards as a 9mm pistol does at the muzzle. There is a VERY GOOD reason why the 9mm is not a legal round to harvest big game nearly everywhere."
You're a wannabe son. What you want to be, is the question.
Bronc
P.S. If you ever apply "within the field" it's best NOT to mention your extra long-range doe killing. You will never get past the psych exam. (I'm quite serious about this.) I know that sounds rude and harsh, so please let me explain. You've proven that you can kill unsuspecting does and fawns at very long range. You've done that over, and over and over, and over... And you apparently take great joy from doing it. However, to maintain your long range doe killing expertise it's not necessary to actually kill one, clay plates are a far more convenient. So why do you keep doing it? Sure, it's lawful for you to do it, but what part of your psychology compels you to keep doing it?
By way of example, drowning puppies in a bucket is legal, but it's something that you probably shouldn't be doing. It make me sad and full of regret every time I kill anything. Do you feel that way? Are you trying to impress the rubes, son? What is the objective? What's going on inside you?
Here is a suggestion: take up bow hunting and try hunting mature bucks. You will quickly discover that hunting with a bow is far more difficult and challenging than using does for target practice at 800 yards. And I'm quite certain you will have all you can handle matching wits with 5.5 y.o. bucks.
All my Best once again,
Bronc
"Listen son, game animals are not paper targets that exist for your amusement. You should have a strongly held ethical commitment to making near instantly fatal hits on target. Deer do not live so you can wound them at 800-yards. A 140-gr. bullet has the same energy at 800-1000 yards as a 9mm pistol does at the muzzle. There is a VERY GOOD reason why the 9mm is not a legal round to harvest big game nearly everywhere."
You're a wannabe son. What you want to be, is the question.
Bronc
P.S. If you ever apply "within the field" it's best NOT to mention your extra long-range doe killing. You will never get past the psych exam. (I'm quite serious about this.) I know that sounds rude and harsh, so please let me explain. You've proven that you can kill unsuspecting does and fawns at very long range. You've done that over, and over and over, and over... And you apparently take great joy from doing it. However, to maintain your long range doe killing expertise it's not necessary to actually kill one, clay plates are a far more convenient. So why do you keep doing it? Sure, it's lawful for you to do it, but what part of your psychology compels you to keep doing it?
By way of example, drowning puppies in a bucket is legal, but it's something that you probably shouldn't be doing. It make me sad and full of regret every time I kill anything. Do you feel that way? Are you trying to impress the rubes, son? What is the objective? What's going on inside you?
Here is a suggestion: take up bow hunting and try hunting mature bucks. You will quickly discover that hunting with a bow is far more difficult and challenging than using does for target practice at 800 yards. And I'm quite certain you will have all you can handle matching wits with 5.5 y.o. bucks.
All my Best once again,
Bronc
and the recommended amount of ft/lbs required to kill a deer is 1000 so my marginal gibbs is sufficient to beyond 1100 yards.
every human has some amount of grief when ending another animals life, I'm no different but we have an overpopulation here, our area can sustain 18 deer per square mile, we have an average of 40 per square mile and without vigorous management the population will double every 2 years, so yes I kill a lot of does, 8-10 a year some years.
as far a 5.5 year old bucks, they do not exist here, they just don't live that long, they stress themselves out so much during the rut that they die their 5th winter, you according to your posts are the best there is with a rifle, but you do not have enough confidance in your ability to shoot game past 600 yards, so you pull your ethics card and call me a wannabe, suit yourself, but you have hit me with marginal equipment, ethics, I'm a phycho, anything else you want to add before I put you on ignore?
RR
11-24-2015, 09:00 PM
#103
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,381
One member is on a week-long timeout for violating several rules. You can disagree, have different opinions, believe in different things but you don't get to violate the rules or insult other members. Those are (and have been) the same rules that each of us agreed to obey when we became members and are the same ones since the beginning of this website.
People have posted about what their personal range limit is for shooting a deer while they are deer hunting and their opinion that shooting beyond that distance limit is somehow not hunting. It's still hunting although maybe a different kind of hunting. People have mentioned distance limits of 600, 450, 400, 200 and even 75 yards (for a bad shot) and espoused that shooting beyond that self-imposed limit is just shooting and not hunting or at least not using hunting skills.
According to at least some of these posts, you are no longer hunting if you shoot beyond the above self-imposed distances. So 600 yards is still hunting but 601 yards magically becomes non-hunting. And the same apparently for 451, 401 and 201 yards (the 75-yard hunter was depicted as already missing at that range). Kind of silly.
The Bowhunter would tell all of us rifle hunters that we're not doing real hunting and so would the pistol hunter, crossbow hunter, spear hunter and even the falconer. Cr422 (in his alter ego that was TMI) would say that all of us are really hunting.
Each of us hunts--we just do it differently. Some use bait, some stalk and spot, some use dogs, some sit on their back deck, etc. It's all still hunting. Each of us, in each of these ways, is matching wits with animal(s) that can see, hear and smell better and we're doing it in their own backyard, not ours. We don't always get get an animal but that's why they call it hunting and not just killing, etc.
People have posted about what their personal range limit is for shooting a deer while they are deer hunting and their opinion that shooting beyond that distance limit is somehow not hunting. It's still hunting although maybe a different kind of hunting. People have mentioned distance limits of 600, 450, 400, 200 and even 75 yards (for a bad shot) and espoused that shooting beyond that self-imposed limit is just shooting and not hunting or at least not using hunting skills.
According to at least some of these posts, you are no longer hunting if you shoot beyond the above self-imposed distances. So 600 yards is still hunting but 601 yards magically becomes non-hunting. And the same apparently for 451, 401 and 201 yards (the 75-yard hunter was depicted as already missing at that range). Kind of silly.
The Bowhunter would tell all of us rifle hunters that we're not doing real hunting and so would the pistol hunter, crossbow hunter, spear hunter and even the falconer. Cr422 (in his alter ego that was TMI) would say that all of us are really hunting.
Each of us hunts--we just do it differently. Some use bait, some stalk and spot, some use dogs, some sit on their back deck, etc. It's all still hunting. Each of us, in each of these ways, is matching wits with animal(s) that can see, hear and smell better and we're doing it in their own backyard, not ours. We don't always get get an animal but that's why they call it hunting and not just killing, etc.
11-24-2015, 10:29 PM
#104
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
I'm calling foul on that one Cal. At what point does one define hunting over shooting? My own personal belief is when one is completely and totally out of an animals awareness and senses boundaries and there is absolutely no way that animal could spot you, wind you, or have any way of knowing you are in his world, that becomes shooting. Archery, we go up in a tree, get in a blind, use scent control, and every other thing that's been thought of to FOOL those senses but those animals still have a HUGE chance of winding or seeing you or hearing you. (Anyone that says deer don't look up hasn't been in the woods). In firearms you are looking at around 400 yards or so for MOST big game. 600 for speed goats and those binocular eyes.
To me, hunting isn't just the "taking of game". It's also the woods craft and everything else involved to get within a reasonable range of an animal. The MAIN problem I have with a LOT of the "long range shooters" I have stated several times. Time factor for bullet flight and that animal's movement DURING that time can NOT be accounted for 100%. PERIOD. Animals move. Yes you can somewhat determine an animals posture and state of relaxation and can get a good idea about it's possible movements but the fact remains, you can NOT know if that deer is about to take a little step that would make that perfect shot you just sent turn into a gut shot. It happens.
In my own little opinion, you aren't matching wits with an animal if you are taking 700-1000+ yard shots on them. You are matching wits with yourself and your own personal boundaries for distance. They can't smell, see, or hear you at those distances so just how are you matching wits with them?
Fact is, there are just too many folks out there that believe that they have WAY more skill than they actually have. The comment about most folks against long range shots are "jealous" may apply to some but you can dang sure bet it doesn't apply to me. I was shooting long range before most of these guys on here were a gleam in their mammies eye and can still bang the gong at 1000 yards even being as old as dirt!
There is a pretty big difference between hunting and shooting and I'd pretty much bet that RR would agree with that statement. His own comment earlier about setting up 700+ yards off a field with a group of folks around there having a party and taking shots on deer would pretty much nail that opinion down don't ya think? Would you still call that "hunting" Cal or would you call that "shooting"?
To me, hunting isn't just the "taking of game". It's also the woods craft and everything else involved to get within a reasonable range of an animal. The MAIN problem I have with a LOT of the "long range shooters" I have stated several times. Time factor for bullet flight and that animal's movement DURING that time can NOT be accounted for 100%. PERIOD. Animals move. Yes you can somewhat determine an animals posture and state of relaxation and can get a good idea about it's possible movements but the fact remains, you can NOT know if that deer is about to take a little step that would make that perfect shot you just sent turn into a gut shot. It happens.
In my own little opinion, you aren't matching wits with an animal if you are taking 700-1000+ yard shots on them. You are matching wits with yourself and your own personal boundaries for distance. They can't smell, see, or hear you at those distances so just how are you matching wits with them?
Fact is, there are just too many folks out there that believe that they have WAY more skill than they actually have. The comment about most folks against long range shots are "jealous" may apply to some but you can dang sure bet it doesn't apply to me. I was shooting long range before most of these guys on here were a gleam in their mammies eye and can still bang the gong at 1000 yards even being as old as dirt!
There is a pretty big difference between hunting and shooting and I'd pretty much bet that RR would agree with that statement. His own comment earlier about setting up 700+ yards off a field with a group of folks around there having a party and taking shots on deer would pretty much nail that opinion down don't ya think? Would you still call that "hunting" Cal or would you call that "shooting"?
11-25-2015, 03:40 AM
#105
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Vermont
Posts: 22,588
Like you said SH 54 it is your opinion. We all have them and that is what separates us all and make us individuals. There are always boundaries that separate what any of us determine to be Ok and not. To a trad hunter a 30 yd shot might be stretching it but a 350 fps modern compound in the hands of an experienced archer it is a slam dunk. The animal moving or jumping the string after the shot is more of an issue with slow bows than the new X-fast ones and distance compounds the problem. I am a still hunter and spend most of the day on my feet working swamps and thicker areas hoping to see a deer before they see me. Just the way I learned to hunt the great north woods of New England. Some people around here have taken the mid west method of building elevated shooting shacks over food plots. They have heat with sliding windows and certainly take the stealth and scent issue off the table. Not my preferred way to hunt but since it is legal I consider it ethical for those who choose to hunt that way. My own opinion is that isn't for me and that goes to show there are many ways to peel the onion. That being said it would be wrong for me to attack, insult or diminish others who choose to legally hunt in a way I don't follow. We all have a right to voice our opinion but there is a line where that crosses over to flaming. The topic of long range shooting is certainly controversial and has in the past resulted in threads going south. Lets all work to keep it within the rules.
11-25-2015, 09:34 AM
#106
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,381
Fair enough SuperHunt but let's look at it in context. I'm not trying to bust your chops because I know what you're saying but I am outlining the other side of the same coin so to speak.
You mentioned a limit of 400 yards as being the limit you use. So for you, anything over 400 yards, even just 401 yards is "not hunting." Move closer to 399 yards and you're hunting. Find yourself at 400 yards and it's time to call the line refs with the measuring line, maybe a rangefinder. I'm parsing a bit here of course but the idea of a limit line or distance limit can be arbitrary. I've had deer spot or notice me a lot further away than 400 yards or even 401 yards. I am not trying to disparage your self imposed limit but some deer will see you further away and some won't. And sometimes a buck might not see you past 100 yards. A lot depends on the terrain, wariness of the buck, your movement or lack of it, etc.
Personally, I feel very comfortable shooting at 400 yards. But a guy with a 200-yard self imposed limit might accuse both of us of "not hunting" because we're on the edge of your "average" distance where deer stop noticing people. A bowhunter would say we're both cheating big time because we're obviously way past his 40 or 50-yard self imposed limit. And cr422 might accuse all of us of not being real hunters because we're using some kind of weapon we weren't born with.
My point is that each of us has our own self-imposed limits and that's okay. It can be a distance at the edge of our shooting ability, where we think we start gaining an advantage because a buck can't see us or maybe a mixture of both. Yet each of us, regardless of our self-imposed limits, has to find a buck first and still maneuver within our self determined shooting distance limit. At 800 yards, you still can't just ditty bop up to a shooting location and expect a buck not to notice you. You may (or may not) crawl, sneak, etc. up to the shooting location as far as somebody with a 400--yard limit or a 200-yard limit, etc. but you still have to be stealthy and exercise some caution and discretion.
So it's a different kind of hunting maybe and RR might not crawl as far as either of us (or maybe he crawls even further, kind of depends on the terrain) but the bottom line is he's not just driving up to some tower or shooting platform, sipping his latte while he places his rifle on some shooting stand brace and capping off a round at some deer who would have to be blind.
I don't bowhunt although I'd like to try it some day. I don't bag on other hunters for bowhunting. I don't hold it against other hunters for imposing a distance limit on their shots as I think anybody should know their own limits. If RR can make such shots and is killing the does, bucks, etc. cleanly and not just wounding animals, then I support that.
It's that killing the animal cleanly that I use to judge another hunter's self imposed limits. Killing an animal cleanly includes, animal movements, wind, brush and anything else that might interfere with the shot. If you can't kill a buck cleanly past 100 yards (for whatever reason), then that should be your self imposed limit.
Each of us has the right to our opinions and that is what RR asked for. I fully support your opinion SH and were it not for this being about RR specifically, I would find myself agreeing with you for about 90% or so of hunters as most cannot reliably kill an animal cleanly past 400 yards or so. I also happen to support RR's opinion as it pertains to him specifically.
You mentioned a limit of 400 yards as being the limit you use. So for you, anything over 400 yards, even just 401 yards is "not hunting." Move closer to 399 yards and you're hunting. Find yourself at 400 yards and it's time to call the line refs with the measuring line, maybe a rangefinder. I'm parsing a bit here of course but the idea of a limit line or distance limit can be arbitrary. I've had deer spot or notice me a lot further away than 400 yards or even 401 yards. I am not trying to disparage your self imposed limit but some deer will see you further away and some won't. And sometimes a buck might not see you past 100 yards. A lot depends on the terrain, wariness of the buck, your movement or lack of it, etc.
Personally, I feel very comfortable shooting at 400 yards. But a guy with a 200-yard self imposed limit might accuse both of us of "not hunting" because we're on the edge of your "average" distance where deer stop noticing people. A bowhunter would say we're both cheating big time because we're obviously way past his 40 or 50-yard self imposed limit. And cr422 might accuse all of us of not being real hunters because we're using some kind of weapon we weren't born with.
My point is that each of us has our own self-imposed limits and that's okay. It can be a distance at the edge of our shooting ability, where we think we start gaining an advantage because a buck can't see us or maybe a mixture of both. Yet each of us, regardless of our self-imposed limits, has to find a buck first and still maneuver within our self determined shooting distance limit. At 800 yards, you still can't just ditty bop up to a shooting location and expect a buck not to notice you. You may (or may not) crawl, sneak, etc. up to the shooting location as far as somebody with a 400--yard limit or a 200-yard limit, etc. but you still have to be stealthy and exercise some caution and discretion.
So it's a different kind of hunting maybe and RR might not crawl as far as either of us (or maybe he crawls even further, kind of depends on the terrain) but the bottom line is he's not just driving up to some tower or shooting platform, sipping his latte while he places his rifle on some shooting stand brace and capping off a round at some deer who would have to be blind.
I don't bowhunt although I'd like to try it some day. I don't bag on other hunters for bowhunting. I don't hold it against other hunters for imposing a distance limit on their shots as I think anybody should know their own limits. If RR can make such shots and is killing the does, bucks, etc. cleanly and not just wounding animals, then I support that.
It's that killing the animal cleanly that I use to judge another hunter's self imposed limits. Killing an animal cleanly includes, animal movements, wind, brush and anything else that might interfere with the shot. If you can't kill a buck cleanly past 100 yards (for whatever reason), then that should be your self imposed limit.
Each of us has the right to our opinions and that is what RR asked for. I fully support your opinion SH and were it not for this being about RR specifically, I would find myself agreeing with you for about 90% or so of hunters as most cannot reliably kill an animal cleanly past 400 yards or so. I also happen to support RR's opinion as it pertains to him specifically.
11-25-2015, 10:00 AM
#107
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,381
As far as RR's recitation of the demonstration or "party" he had with several people watching, etc., no, that instance sounded more like shooting than hunting. But it's not logical to extend that single instance to every single shot/kill that RR makes. He shoots at different distances and some might even be shorter. For me to pass a different judgment on his hunting, I would have to know a lot more and probably actually watch a hunt or 2. that doesn't lend itself to argufying on a message board with people you don't hunt with but that's just my professional training and experience kicking in. 
