MudderChuck

When I have a choice, I'll harvest a yearling Doe or two. If the Game Commission (or equivalent) specifies Bucks, I'll take a young one. When I take a Buck I try to judge it and harvest the Culls. I'm not always right, hard to tell what a young Buck is going to turn into in later years. Just the way I do it, probably some sort of ethics game I play on myself.

I get my satisfaction when I shoot and the Deer falls in a pile, instantly.

Bragging rights don't interest me much. I leave the big and trophy Bucks for those who actually give a darn. I have one buddy who has over two hundred trophies. Maybe he should go to Sweden and get a penis extension ? I try not to judge, not everybody is the same or motivated by the same things.

I try to pick my shots to benefit the herd. Lame, injured, incest/deformed etc. I'll take a second year Buck still hanging around his mother before a trophy Buck from a neighboring lease.

Just opinion, but a yearling, two and a half year old Doe, neck shot that drops it in a pile, is about the best eating you are going to get, IMO.

A 5-6 year old Buck, in rut, that was shot, had an Adrenalin surge and ran a quarter of mile before going down is likely to be worse eating.

Side note, I've noticed women eating a rutty Buck full of Adrenalin, that just loved the flavor, ate until they popped and constantly commented on how good the meat was. Same meat I couldn't eat without a load of pepper and spices. May guess is it some sort of olfactory thing.

We do things differently here, we get a quota on a hunting lease and have months to fill that quota. They actually grade the Deer in the quota by sex, age, form, color, antlers etc. Some years it is young Deer heavy, some years Doe heavy, some years mature Buck heavy etc. The lease holders play a game and try to fudge, but it all works out in the long term, mostly. They tend to hunt the borders of the adjoining lease heavily, to try and increase their herd so they get a higher quota. Sure some lease holders try and fudge by under reporting their take, but it always comes back to bite them in the rear sooner or later. A trained eye from the county spends a few days on that lease and they can tell the general number and type of Deer there. They might find their quota halved the next year.

Maybe the Game Commission (or local equivalent) is slowly changing to the North European model in game management??

Always trying to shoot the biggest and best Bucks can't be good for the herd, long term.

I've passed on many Bucks, I always figure if I've scoped them I owned them. They often get taken by another hunter, all I can really do is follow my own conscience and ethics.

rockport

That is what stands out the most from the age management program I use, We really have a great diversity of age in the herd.

It also helps with blood lines as those young bucks disperse.

I just don't know how you execute that kind of plan on a large scale. Antler restriction may be the best realistic plan.

rockport

Surely the reasoning behind antler restrictions is age related. Obviously its not perfect though.

brucelanthier

Well, why would only the age range of just the bucks be important if herd management is the objective? Not really arguing with you but I am not so sure that antler restrictions are age related. As you hint at, age of the deer really doesn't correlate to antler points. Also, wouldn't age of does be equally important?

brucelanthier

In our state there is no more physical deer check in. All by phone. So, even with our new antler restrictions in place how does DNR monitor the age of the animals being harvested? If the antler restrictions were about age structure then you would think they would be monitoring it somehow to see if they (antler restrictions) were effective.

rockport

You can only do what is reasonable. Antler restriction will increase the average age.

People can't age deer but they can count to 8

olsaltydog

Found this on one of Maryland's information pamphlets or PDF.

Deer Research and Data Use eer Research and Data Use
In 2013-2014, 4,384 deer were examined at
butcher shops across the state during the muzzleloader
and firearm seasons. At the butcher shops,
sex and age of the deer were determined and antler
measurements were recorded for bucks. Deer were
also checked for evidence of illness or disease.
The yearly sample of harvested deer provides
valuable information that is used to estimate deer
population numbers and to detect any changes in
the deer herd reproductive potential. It is also used
to monitor the overall health of deer and the effects
of changes to seasons and bag limits made to better
manage deer populations.
Staff and volunteers determine the age of each
deer by the wear and replacement of its teeth. As
young deer get older their milk teeth are replaced
with permanent teeth. As adult deer age, their
permanent teeth begin to wear down. This enables
biologists to reliably categorize deer as fawns (less
than one year old), yearlings (approximately 1.5
years old) or adults (two years and older). The
proportions of deer in each age class and their
gender are then used in reconstruction models
to develop and follow trends in the state’s deer
population.
The antler beam circumference measurements
of yearling male deer that are brought to butcher
shops are used as indicators of the reproductive
potential and health of the deer herd. Yearling
males in good habitat with moderate deer numbers
will have larger antler beam diameters than those
in higher populations or poorer habitat. Abundant
food and modest competition translates into
more energy available for antler growth. This is
most evident in the yearling age class. Trends in
these measurements can indicate deer herd overpopulation
and habitat degradation. Overall,
Maryland’s long-term data for these indicators
show healthy, productive deer populations across
the state (Table 9).
Deer at the butcher shops are also examined for
evidence of hemorrhagic disease; a virus spread
by biting midges. Hemorrhagic disease (HD), or
“Blue-tongue”, commonly appears in late summer
and early fall. Deer that have survived HD and
are harvested will exhibit hooves with sloughing
or peeling tissue. These deer are still suitable
for human consumption. HD occurs yearly in
Maryland, although it varies in intensity. The
results of this yearly, statewide examination are
reported to the Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife
Disease Study (SCWDS) in Athens, Georgia as
part of a nationwide survey. The HD study with
SCWDS is one of the oldest and most complete
nationwide wildlife disease investigations in the
country

Also would appear that your states antler restrictions seem to be rather liberal in that either a double fork horn or a single 3 point or above can be taking in conjunction with does throughout the season. If this is wrong please correct me.

If a state is using antler restrictions in conjunction with doe tags then age structure/ and population is probably the goal. If you had more sever antler restrictions but no doe tags then I would say trophy might be the more emphasis as this indicates they butchered a better well rounded plan for emphasis on older bucks which as you mentioned does the deer herd no good.

MudderChuck

Most of these programs paint a management scheme with a broad brush.

Speaking of Doe, I wait a bit before I shoot, sometimes the fawns are late. A real downer when you shoot a Doe and she has milk. knowing there is a fawn out there someplace that is bound to starve to death or be eating by predators, isn't a good feeling.

If I see the same Doe two years in a row and she has no fawn, unless she has exceptional potential, I harvest her out. Some are poor mothers, others are barren.

It is sometimes really hard to tell the age of a Deer just by looking, especially after around three years old. All together we had near a hundred hours of classes trying to teach this, along with how to grade Deer. It is way easier if you know your hunting grounds well and have watched that Deer mature and know it's parentage. Experience is the only real teacher, that and counting teeth after they are dead (which can also be a bit iffy on occasion)..

Oldtimr

In PA, while some people believe otherwise, antler restrictions along with a drastic reduction in the doe population was an attempt to do something about about the uneven age structure of the herd. About 60 percent of PA's buck were killed at a year and a half old, essentially yearlings. Most of the buck never made it beyond that. The biologists said it was unhealthy to continue to kill off the young buck so they initiated antler restrictions along with herd reduction which needed to be done decades ago, there were just too many deer and the habitat damage was evident if you knew how to see it. A by-product of the antler restrictions was larger rack buck were becoming more common each year and I have seen more big antlers in the last 7 or 8 years than I have in my entire 50 plus years of deer hunting. Some continue to say the restrictions are for trophy buck, that is false, allowing buck to live longer naturally produced bigger racks and bodies. I m not a big fan of antler restrictions but I support it because it is better for the herd in general and I don't target big buck anyway. There are states that manage for big racks but PA is not one of them. In some areas of the state the deer took a heavy hit in the population, that was needed. Slowly the PGC is allowing some areas to increase the population slowly as the habitat dictates, the goal is about a 50/50 sex ratio, I don't know if they will reach it, wildlife management is not an exact science, different areas require different techniques, wildlife for the most part is in constant flux, it has to be because there are too many conditions that cannot be controlled.

brucelanthier

They examined 4% of the deer taken (95,863) and that doesn't count the ones that never make it to the butcher shop. I process my own deer as does my neighbor and many others. It just doesn't seem like a good way to determine age structure by only checking 4%. Maybe it is, I am not a biologist.

Instead of letting us shoot 4 bucks a year and having antler restrictions, why not limit the take to 1 or 2? Granted you need to shoot 2 does to get the bonus antlered stamp but I can still shoot 3 and no does need to be shot.

We can shoot unlimited does but there is no requirement to shoot does. If we are trying to manage herd size why not require 2 does before any buck?

It is not really that hard to determine an older doe from a younger one here in MD. I also wait to see if there are fawns but usually the fawns are not too cautious and their movement gives them away first.

Anyway, sorry for going on a MD tangent and taking the thread off track.