Herd Genetics?
12-17-2013, 05:29 AM
#11
Spike
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 80
I do not believe in the "once a spike always a spike" theory. Does anybody have any proof that spikes have potential to become bigger bucks? I'm looking for some research to debunk this myth or back it up. This has been an on going debate with some friends.
Last edited by TheDudeAbides; 12-17-2013 at 08:02 AM.
12-17-2013, 06:44 AM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,359
Your right that genetics dont change and I agree with you and dont understand their thinking on taking that buck out of the herd. Someone mentioned does as part of the equation and believe it or not the doe plays more than a 50% role in deciding that bucks potential. Have read quite a few studies indicating that the doe is the absolute biggest part of the equation and without a good breeder it doesnt matter how big the buck is that bred her. Made me think long and hard about which I does I shoot now and I prefer to take a 1.5 to 2.5yr old doe and leave as many older girls in their prime out there as possible.
Personally if I see a big buck I shoot it. I think you would need a much more controlled environment than most of us have to actually manage genetics.
Letting bucks mature is about as far as my management goes.
12-17-2013, 08:27 AM
#13
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 616
I believe along the same lines as with smaller and younger bucks they have to earn the right to breed via fighting the mature males with the exception of the ones they can sneak in.
That being said the older bucks still have the genetics but not the power to still have breeding rights, except for the ones THEY can sneak in too. Everything has a cycle. Removing the older bucks from the herd is a matter of preference not genetics. MHO
That being said the older bucks still have the genetics but not the power to still have breeding rights, except for the ones THEY can sneak in too. Everything has a cycle. Removing the older bucks from the herd is a matter of preference not genetics. MHO
12-17-2013, 09:30 AM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
LOL. Genetics don't change with age or antler size. Lots of folks on tv have no clue. One of the reasons I quit watching the shows.
And once a spike always a spike is not true. Its been proven. I've seen numerous studies over the years. On our property, I've seen personally several times where bucks that had spikes turned into decent racked 6-8 pts in future years. One of our guys killed a nice 8pt at 3.5 that was a spike at 1.5. Had a white spot on its neck. He was a no brow basket 6 at 2.5.
Another buddy of mine had a button buck that would eat from his hand. The following year, he was a spike...would still eat from his hand. At 2.5 he grew a 10pt rack. Not huge, but 10pts. Still ate from his hand and hung around his house right up until the rut. Never saw him again after that.
I think when they are born has alot to do with the first rack they grow. Late born, they are using up all their uumph to grow their body in that first year - leaving little left for antler growth. The next year they get caught up and can grow a nice rack. We see this alot in our overpopulated area we hunt. Lots of small young spike bucks, many of which are likely due to 2nd or 3rd rut breeding.
And once a spike always a spike is not true. Its been proven. I've seen numerous studies over the years. On our property, I've seen personally several times where bucks that had spikes turned into decent racked 6-8 pts in future years. One of our guys killed a nice 8pt at 3.5 that was a spike at 1.5. Had a white spot on its neck. He was a no brow basket 6 at 2.5.
Another buddy of mine had a button buck that would eat from his hand. The following year, he was a spike...would still eat from his hand. At 2.5 he grew a 10pt rack. Not huge, but 10pts. Still ate from his hand and hung around his house right up until the rut. Never saw him again after that.
I think when they are born has alot to do with the first rack they grow. Late born, they are using up all their uumph to grow their body in that first year - leaving little left for antler growth. The next year they get caught up and can grow a nice rack. We see this alot in our overpopulated area we hunt. Lots of small young spike bucks, many of which are likely due to 2nd or 3rd rut breeding.
12-17-2013, 09:37 AM
#15
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 749
I talked to biogolistbfrom.Maryland and he said if a one year old has spikes he is going to grow. But killed spikes.that where less then 2" and had the end age them at 2.5 and 3 year old deer. Shot a lot of them. Now seeing bicker bucks. So I dies agree with a spike will grow. I will let younger spikes go but older ones I will kill.
12-18-2013, 09:11 AM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,149
So I've been hearing and seeing it on TV every year for awhile now. So I'm going to ask you guys and gals your take on the matter.
Last night I was watching a hunting show on TV, and they shot a really nice thick antlered buck. They said he was 8.5 yrs old and needed to be taken out of the breeding herd, because his antlers had gone downhill the last few years.
So with that said it got me thinking about herd genetics. First off I'm by no means a wildlife biologist. Although I did go to college for it but joined the service before I could finish.
If a deer at 4.5 yrs old has a set of antlers that scores 180 in and the same deer at 8.5 yrs old has a rack that scores 135ish. It doesn't make any sense to me that he needs to be taken out of the herd because his rack went downhill and he's an old deer now. As far as I know and correct me if I'm wrong genetics don't change. You’re born with 'em and you die with the same genetics. So the comment he needed to be taken out of the gene pool is completely wrong. If he did breed a doe that yr which I'm sure he probably did. His off spring even though he was only sporting a 135ish rack at the time of his death have a good chance of sporting a 180 in rack at 4.5 yr old too. As long as the doe had good genes too.
Am I way off in this thinking?
Maybe this is the same logic of shoot all spikes. "Once a spike always a spike"
Last night I was watching a hunting show on TV, and they shot a really nice thick antlered buck. They said he was 8.5 yrs old and needed to be taken out of the breeding herd, because his antlers had gone downhill the last few years.
So with that said it got me thinking about herd genetics. First off I'm by no means a wildlife biologist. Although I did go to college for it but joined the service before I could finish.
If a deer at 4.5 yrs old has a set of antlers that scores 180 in and the same deer at 8.5 yrs old has a rack that scores 135ish. It doesn't make any sense to me that he needs to be taken out of the herd because his rack went downhill and he's an old deer now. As far as I know and correct me if I'm wrong genetics don't change. You’re born with 'em and you die with the same genetics. So the comment he needed to be taken out of the gene pool is completely wrong. If he did breed a doe that yr which I'm sure he probably did. His off spring even though he was only sporting a 135ish rack at the time of his death have a good chance of sporting a 180 in rack at 4.5 yr old too. As long as the doe had good genes too.
Am I way off in this thinking?
Maybe this is the same logic of shoot all spikes. "Once a spike always a spike"
12-18-2013, 03:52 PM
#18
Spike
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: iowa
Posts: 95
i dont think they ment it like that, they are taking him out cause of age. Just like any other thing the older it is the less chance of having healthy offspring. The antler part means he was getting smaller so take him before he gets even smaller.
