sachiko

Shinto is a religion. Some write it off as pantheism or ancestor worship, but that's not accurate. We do believe that there is an element of the creator in everything including rocks and trees. But that really isn't any different than the Christian belief that God is omnipresent is it?

I know that my the spirits of our ancestors are there to guide us if we listen. Is this so different than the Catholic prayer for intercession to the saints? I know that my husband's spirit will still be there to guide me and our daughters even after he leaves this life.

I do accept the Catholic faith. I just believe that doctrines and dogmas can be imperfect and I accept, as does my husband, what is true for us. The fact that religious beliefs are frequently revised makes this attitude seem reasonable.

And I understand that one of the popes has said there is no conflict between the Bible and evolution. And they teach evolution in the science classes in our local Catholic schools.

Shinto does not have a holy book which incorporates a set of dogmas and rules to which one has to swear allegiance which makes it different from Western religions. In the Eastern tradition, one accepts what one has come to know. My husband spent much time in Korea. He tells me that it is not unusual there to see people who respect and follow both Buddha and Jesus.

As far as life after death, Christianity holds to a belief in a heaven, a specific place. I was not raised that way. The life of the soul after death is a different state but not a different place.

I am always willing to explain what I believe. And my husband shares my beliefs. But I don't feel as though I have to convince anyone in order that they might be "saved." My faith is strong enough to deal with the fact that others may disagree with me.

Although I have made mistakes in my life, I don't believe that I am a vile sinner in need of salvation.

As far as the hereafter is concerned, I don't believe we'll be bored. I think the wisdom we will acquire will be sufficient for our needs. Haven't you ever wondered what it would be like to be free of the restrictions of your earthly body and mind?



May The Sheep Be With You

Murby

So I was right! (sort of)... While it may technically be a religion, it doesn't have all of the characteristics one generally associates with a religious practice. Lets test the waters shall we?
1) Is there a Shinto church where people gather for the purpose of worship? (memorials and festivals are exempt)
2) Is there a Shinto preist or master who dictates what you can and can't do and what to think and say to others?
3) Does the Shinto practice solicit financial support where such support is funneled to the top like a pyramid?
4) Does Shinto imply threats and penalties for non-conformance?
5) Does Shinto explicitly and strategically act to perpetuate its own proliferation?

I do believe it is different. From my short time reading, it seems to me that the Shinto practice is so pacifistic that one would hardly call it religion.. In ten minutes of familiarizing myself with it, it looks like more of a tradition of respect than a worship of a higher-power.
Sure, there might be a higher power involved in there, but that's not the main focus.
At least, that's the impression I am getting.. I'm obviously not Japanese and am not going to have a good understanding of your ways via a few google searches.

Again, a few google searches isn't going to make me qualified enough to make some of these determinations. But the impression I am getting is clearly one of tradition and not religion. If I had to put a number to it, I'd say 95% tradition, vs 5% religious worship.


I kind of think that pretty much makes it a non-religion. Perhaps not technically because I think that any belief in a higher power could be classified as a religion.. That said, its not what one would typically consider a religion.
I think that the absence of a book is probably a key factor.


That's because your religion isn't really a religion in the sense we think of. You have no requirement to proliferate. No threats of violence or punishment for non conformance. Now you got me really curious if Shinto solicits financial support.

If everyone was Shinto, religion in this world wouldn't exist as it does today. I'm not saying Shinto is good or bad, I'm just saying that its not really what we westerners consider a religion in the common way that causes all the problems in society.



I experience that every night when I dream in my sleep.. Well, most nights anyhow.. Sometimes I have to put up with those pesky ninja's attacking!

Thank you again for contributing. I don't think that anyone, even the anti-religious like me, would have anything against your way of thinking.

straitR

Murby

After reading all 9 pages of this thread, and not seeing it mentioned, I felt compelled to say what everyone is thinking, and what you clearly want to hear.

Dude, you're smart, we get it. You argue content or positions that people are making to be alternative to their words. That certain phrasing, words, or points are clearly a sign of this or that, and cannot challenge your position and higher intellect.

I have no doubt you are smarter than me, I am smart enough to know that. I knowingly type this with the full expectation of you picking my words and motives apart like Freud, but I'm ok with that, because God is amazing.

It's that same amount of education that contributes to you agreeing with only what you can see, and the "science" you chose to believe. Evolution must be true, because an educated human says so. Who determines who is correct? Who determined the carbon dating method is correct? You're still choosing to believe in someone or something, it's just something other than God.

How do you know your great, great, great, great, great, great, great-grandfather existed? Where is your physical proof? You're here, so you take it for granted that he existed, that's faith.

Maybe, most believers appear "uneducated", as you put it, because they haven't been educated to the point of feeling smarter, better than, and more superior to everyone around them. God can't possibly exist to anyone who believes himself to be so of his own world.

And whether you like it or not, I'm praying for you.

Happy hunting my friend.

Maddog10

This has to be one of the best "rookie debut" posts in forum history. Nice first post, and welcome to the forum. I agree 100%. Everyone has faith, but not everyone decides to put their faith in the same places.

Murby

If you want to see smart, go here and see what a PhD is. http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/

I think I'm average..Maybe above, maybe below, who knows. PhD's are smart... That I do know.

I think there's a term for this kind of statement.. I'm not sure what it is but the term "circular argument" comes to mind.

That is not faith, that's logic.
I know the sun is going to be there tomorrow. Its not faith, its logic.


Now that clears up your perspective on this. Let me explain a bit so you don't think I'm some pompous jerk. (Or should I say, "so you STOP thinking I'm some pompous jerk)

One of my friends is a jet engine mechanic. We grew up together and I've known him for 35+ years. He moved away and we just reconnected a while back after not seeing each other for almost 15 of those years. He was one of the most trusted friends I have ever had the privilege of being associated with and I am a bit ashamed I let ourselves drift apart the way we did.
He works on all types of jet engines and he is a specialist. When there's a problem that the normal trouble shooting procedures can't resolve, they send him in. To say he's spent a bit of time in the classroom learning all this stuff is an understatement. I'm an engineer and while I understand the basics of a jet engine, they're way out of my ballpark.
My friend believes in God.. Born, raised, catechism, church every sunday, etc.. hardcore christian.
He also didn't believe in evolution.. Until we reconnected and I set him straight. He still believes in God, but he admits he wasn't aware of the science that has developed. He is/was uneducated in that respect.

You think that I used the word uneducated as a synonym for stupid or idiot. Well, sometimes that might be true.. But its not a rule.

I find that the majority of people who believe in a god are:
1. Uneducated.. Sometimes they just haven't kept up with the science that could have changed their minds, other times they are just idiots who have fried their brains on drugs or never bothered to read anything.
2. Indoctrinated.. They might be very educated folks but they were heavily exposed to religion at a very early age when their brains were developing. Their neurons are PHYSICALLY wired to incorporate religion into every aspect of their lives. No amount of education or proof will change the hard-wiring of their brain. You can write all the software you want, but you can't change the way a processor works.
3. Agenda.. Those who don't believe but know that pretending will bring in followers and give them money and power or something else they want.

Hope that clears it up.

Except for my ruggedly handsome good looks, I do not feel superior to anyone as I have my own list of shortcomings and faults.

That said, if you still think I am somehow superior and smarter than you, than I'm good with that! LOL

clydeNY

I see this angle being worked all of the time. It always coming from a religious person who's trying to deny evolution, prove that we have "souls", etc. Coincidentally, it is also completely ignorant of the spirit of science. No one, and I mean no one is better positioned to understand the ways our world can/does subvert expectation than the scientifically literate. You need scientific literacy and knowledge in order to merely dip the tip of your big toe into the pool of what human understanding has to say about how appearances can be deceiving.

Also, science is ultimately a matter of leaving yourself open to better evidence and better ideas. It holds no theory so sacred that it can't be supplanted by a new one.

Evolution and radiometric dating are well-established fields. Versus one guy on a hunting forum. Let's be realistic here.

I had to have a grandfather. How else would I be here? Maybe a wizard did it?

Murby

You're talking to a creationist and your asking for realism? And its not one guy on a hunting forum.. There's an army of them out there... It's like the invasion of scientific zombies.

Oh that's easy.. Its a Stork... everyone knows that.

MZS

Not all that believe in a world created by God, as opposed to evolving, are uneducated.

Read In Six Days: Why Fifty Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation - 50 scientists with advanced degrees from secular universities, all believing in Creation, six day creation no less.

Or read some of Stephen C Meyer's very recent books, like Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design or Darwin's Doubt: The Explosive Origin of Animal Life and the Case for Intelligent Design.

The Green Horn Hunter

God is an awesome God, God Bless!

Murby

Agreed.. In such cases, they are indoctrinated at an early age. Not saying there are no exceptions..

And I'm sure I could find 50 scientist who believe aliens control the white house..
That said, if I ever find the time, I will read the book.. (but don't hold your breath)..

Ya, I'm not going to read that one.. I already explored the intelligent design wacko's.. That's just a prime example of "moving the goal post" once the original doctrine was debunked. People who believe in intelligent design are just folks who understand science but have been indoctrinated early.. The neurons in their brain bucket are wired in such a way as to incorporate god into everything, no matter how much logic says otherwise.

Indoctrination is very tough to crack.. almost impossible if done right. I would bet that even if God did show up one day, they wouldn't accept it no matter how much proof God showed.

Something to ponder, if God wanted us to worship him, why didn't he give us indisputable evidence of his existence and presence? Why not drop in every few hundred years and part an ocean or something?
Doesn't make sense...