God is Amazing

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11-05-2013, 05:42 PM

#91

OhioNovice

Fork Horn

Join Date: Jan 2012

Location: Hamilton, OH

Posts: 456

This thread reminds me of this clip from the movie Signs.

http://youtu.be/27qUO8_9uT0

11-06-2013, 03:53 AM

#92

dystmitsi

Spike

Join Date: Nov 2013

Posts: 4

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11-06-2013, 05:37 PM

#93

Bocajnala

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Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: Trumbull County, Ohio

Posts: 9,519

I'd like to get in on this but working on my M.A. has really lessened my forum time. I would remind those professing Christianity to watch the mud slinging. When I read a "Christian" who is arguing their side in one post and calling names in the next it makes me scratch my head and wonder. Thanks to everyone willing to calmly debate each side though. Talks like this is what helps all of us to grow and learn.
-Jake

11-06-2013, 11:08 PM

#94

Nomercy448

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Join Date: Oct 2009

Location: Kansas

Posts: 3,902

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread, but paged through them all, enough to confirm that my expectation was correct for what happened here.

If the OP would have posted "Mother nature is amazing," we would have seen 3 or 4 posts over a week commenting on how cool the video was, or asking where it was taken, how the herd was managed, etc etc, before this got bumped off of the main page and forgotten.

Instead, because the title was "God is amazing", an innocent thread became an opportunity for one person to spend 10 pages trying to prove how smart he is. Rather than being smart enough to realize that he's not 'converting' or 'educating' anyone here, he has taken the opportunity argue endlessly, illustrating how close minded he really is, and how denigrating he choses to be toward the belief system of others that don't conform to his own beliefs.

When someone stands on an island like this and argues their position to no end, I often can't decide whether to laugh or shake my head, because at this point, being ignorant to the futility of continuing the argument is no better than the ignorance you're accusing of the people you're trying to 'convert' or 'educate'. Creationist, or other flavors of entrenched believers that take the human documentation of God's teachings (i.e. the Bible) to a faulted literalism, and believe that a man survived in the belly of a whale, or believe that our universe was created in 6 days; these people have decided to live in strict black and white. If any of it is truth, then it must all be truth. Equally, you stand on the other side of the fence to the opposition, and argue that you have no proof that certain aspects of it are true, so therefore NONE of it may be true. Both of you are ignorant. Or should I use your preferred term, "uneducated?"

My honest motivation to comment at all tonight, though I have fought it for a few hours now, is based around your specifically narrow-minded list of reasons for which "educated people might still be foolish enough to believe in God":

I SHARE THE FOLLOWING WITH YOU NOT AS AN ARGUEMENT, BUT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPAND YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHY SOME 'EDUCATED PEOPLE' (or at least THIS educated person) BELIEVE IN GOD. You have made up your mind, and I do not care to change it, but I'll share with you the reasoning as to how I made up MY mind, which contradicts what you have touted thus far.

I consider myself an educated person, and I do believe in God, so I feel it fair to comment on why I don't believe in the narrow division of motivations you have proposed.

My faith has nothing to do with my 'indoctrination': I was not raised by a religious family, we only went to church a few times a year, mostly for the fellowship with other farmers rather than for any actual pious motivation. Neither my parents, nor either set of grand parents were regular attenders. Since the time that I chose my own faith roughly 15yrs ago, I have been off and on for regular Sunday attendance, even though I'm still fairly active within our church activities when I can be of use (in fact, I help out with events a couple church's in our community, not just my own. I do this in the interest of serving my community, not just the other Mennonites within it).

Nor do I believe in a higher power as a fraudulent ruse for my own gain. I assume you are referring to those 'televangelist' types we might see on late night TV, or those that post on facebook every sunday afternoon about the Glory God has shown them in their lives, on top of the pictures from the bar they posted from Saturday night. I consider my faith to be a very personal thing, and take a slight insult that this makes your list as a substantial subset for the motivation of Christian followers. If I have gained monetarily from my faith, or the recruitment of said faith in others in any way, it'd be news to me.

My faith in God does indeed stem directly from my level of education, but contrarily to the perception you have about the correlation between faith and education level. I would expect that I would be fair to consider my 'education' to be above average for Americans, as it includes two bachelors degrees, one in Medical Science: Pre-Med, the other chemical engineering with minors in physics and microbiology. While working full-time jobs over the last decade, I have so far finished my Masters in Chemical Engineering, working toward my PhD, and should finish my MBA at the end of next year. I'm a certified Project Management Professional, a licensed Professional Engineer, and a certified Risk Assessor. I have co-authored 2 registered US patents, and been supporting contributor on over a dozen others in the last decade. I consider myself to be "educated" at least partially, and I can say irrefutably that my education, and the resultant understanding I have for how the universe around me functions, has served as the motivation for me to START believing.

My 'without-a-doubt expectation' for your response will be for you to reference, probably even quote yourself, your thread where you emboldened the word "majority", giving yourself an excuse to exclude someone like me from your narrow-minded definitions of 'educated believers'. Undoubtedly, you included this modifier to give yourself an outlet to pursue that someone like me might come along, so you can dismiss me as an exception to the "majority". To which my response is this: you've drawn very small boxes for a very diverse subset of the world's population. There is no reason to believe nor evidence to support that your boxes are applicable as global definitions other than narcissistic cynicism, but you have passed them off as such. You have revealed yourself.

My reasons for believing, including some of the reasons that I believe things that contradict traditional Christian teachings (which I politely keep to myself around certain members of our church), have come directly from my understanding of science and the world around me. It is the continuity of RULES, many of which contradict the number one rule of the universe, that created a foundation for my faith.

Discrete Examples:

In engineering school, many aspects of our world get simplified into standardized equations. These equations, in application, are essentially a set of rules for behavior that the world exhibits. Oddly, equations for VERY different systems will have the same structure, essentially the same rules. Why might it make sense that a photon of light traveling through space would behave under similar rules to water flowing through an aqueduct or the same rules as heat traveling through a rifle barrel? Why would the equations for gravity, magnetism, or ionic potential be nearly identical? Or why would inductive magnetism follow the same equation structure as gyroscopic stabilization? Why would the radiative decay of radio-isotopes used for carbon dating behave under the same set of rules that apply to the metabolization of an acorn by a squirrel's stomach?

Why should a human being have the same physical structure as a deer? Why would snakes have remnants of legs? Why is it that a spider's leg (an invertebrate species, mind you) has the same fundamental structure as a human limb? Why does all living matter on earth share a common foundational structure for genetic blueprinting (DNA)?

Why do all life forms on our planet rely upon CO2 or O2, and H2O? Regardless of our species specific transport strategy (lungs, gills, book lungs, etc) and despite the extreme differential in species genetics, all animals rely upon oxygen, and all plants rely upon carbon dioxide, and both depend upon water.

Now consider these questions and the broad reaching 'coincidental' similarities between these well defined rule structures in the context of the highest order irrefutable rule of our universe: the increase of Entropy. If our universe, and arguably our planet, is as old as science has 'proven' it to be, and originated in the way that science has proven it did, how did a non-selective entropic universe develop a planet with an extremely SMALL set of universal rules? (Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting here that I disagree with the scientific theory of the age nor origination of the earth or universe.) For a system to behave in an isentropic, or even decreasing entropy state, the work required to combat the 'decay of universal structure' must be entropic. In layman's terms, someone or some thing had to put in the work, in an entropic release, to create all of the unified structure and organization that we have within our universe. An explosion does not result in order.

That is why I believe. I may not believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, and I may believe in the expanding universe (big bang theory), but science has shown me that a well structured set of rules exist, which contradicts the very nature of the universe in which they exist, and therefore SOMETHING has to have written those rules.

But, reasonable words falling on deaf ears or close minds are both similarly heard. It's your leg, keep on kicking a dead horse if you so enjoy it.

Last edited by Nomercy448; 11-06-2013 at 11:26 PM.

11-07-2013, 02:07 AM

#95

d80hunter

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: Indiana

Posts: 1,186

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murby

I agree.. Lack of education and indoctrination are tough to crack once they've been instilled into the target subject. This is why they start young with catechism and/or solicit the poor.

You speak of churches as indoctrination centers. Maybe they are but so are schools. Is any education anyone received have any credibilility? Are your scientific ideologies based on faith as well, since you did not invent any of these ideas yourself. That said show some respect to others who believe in something as you do.

11-07-2013, 07:56 AM

#96

NEhomer

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Join Date: Nov 2013

Location: Western Massachusetts

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Assigned viewing to all inhabitants of this thread:

Religulous by Bill Maher

11-07-2013, 12:32 PM

#97

Bocajnala

Super Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: Trumbull County, Ohio

Posts: 9,519

Nomercy you said what i didn't have time to say, and better than I could have said it. Nice post, thanks for sharing.
-Jake

11-07-2013, 01:04 PM

#98

dstubb

Typical Buck

Join Date: Nov 2006

Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posts: 782

You happen to have been brought up, i would presume, in the Christian faith. You know what it's like not to believe in a particular faith because you're not a Muslim… you're not a Hindu. You are an Atheist to hundreds of religions, i just take it one god further.

Why aren't you a Hindu? Because you happen to have been brought up in in America, not in India. If you had been brought up in India, you'd be a Hindu. If you'd been brought up in Denmark at the time of the Vikings, you'd be believing in Wotan and Thor. If you had been brought up in classical Greece you'd be believing in Zeus. If you had been brought up in Central Africa, you'd be believing in the great juju up the mountain.

There's no particular reason to pick the Judeo Christian god in which, by the sheerest accident, you happen to have been brought up

11-07-2013, 01:06 PM

#99

Murby

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Join Date: Oct 2013

Location: Michigan

Posts: 269

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomercy448

Instead, because the title was "God is amazing", an innocent thread became an opportunity for one person to spend 10 pages trying to prove how smart he is. Rather than being smart enough to realize that he's not 'converting' or 'educating' anyone here, he has taken the opportunity argue endlessly, illustrating how close minded he really is, and how denigrating he choses to be toward the belief system of others that don't conform to his own beliefs.

Personal Attack Number 1... Nice!

Quote:

When someone stands on an island like this and argues their position to no end, I often can't decide whether to laugh or shake my head, because at this point, being ignorant to the futility of continuing the argument is no better than the ignorance you're accusing of the people you're trying to 'convert' or 'educate'.

You're not really capable of holding an objective debate on the subject are you? You feel compelled to add personal attacks to your disagreement as if its going to somehow lend credibility to your arguments?

Quote:

My honest motivation to comment at all tonight, though I have fought it for a few hours now,

Honest motivation?

Do you really think about this for hours? Oh man, I guess it really struck a nerve. Still no reason or excuse for a personal attack.

Quote:

is based around your specifically narrow-minded list of reasons for which "educated people might still be foolish enough to believe in God":

Well now, if you're going to attempt to stick words into my mouth that I never said, you should at least be honest enough to let everyone know that you're making things up as you go. Or has that "honest motivation" evaporated already? My guess is that its buried in the bible somewhere with the rest of the hogwash.

Quote:

My faith has nothing to do with my 'indoctrination': I was not raised by a religious family, we only went to church a few times a year,

Did you actually just say that? You just admitted in black and white that you were clearly indoctrinated.
"Umm.. No Mr. Police officer, I didn't steal it I promise.. I just took it off the shelf and walked out the door without paying"..

Quote:

Nor do I believe in a higher power as a fraudulent ruse for my own gain. I assume you are referring to those 'televangelist' types we might see on late night TV, or those that post on facebook every sunday afternoon about the Glory God has shown them in their lives, on top of the pictures from the bar they posted from Saturday night.

Add politicians, elected officials, clergy themselves, etc etc etc...
Money, sex and power..

Quote:

I consider my faith to be a very personal thing,

Obviously not personal enough to stop you from throwing around personal attacks and insults.

Quote:

My faith in God does indeed stem directly from my level of education, but contrarily to the perception you have about the correlation between faith and education level. I would expect that I would be fair to consider my 'education' to be above average for Americans, as it includes two bachelors degrees, one in Medical Science: Pre-Med, the other chemical engineering with minors in physics and microbiology. While working full-time jobs over the last decade, I have so far finished my Masters in Chemical Engineering, working toward my PhD, and should finish my MBA at the end of next year. I'm a certified Project Management Professional, a licensed Professional Engineer, and a certified Risk Assessor. I have co-authored 2 registered US patents, and been supporting contributor on over a dozen others in the last decade.

We'll get back to this shortly...

Quote:

I consider myself to be "educated" at least partially, and I can say irrefutably that my education, and the resultant understanding I have for how the universe around me functions, has served as the motivation for me to START believing.

Ya, your parents taking you to church had nothing to do with it.

Quote:

My 'without-a-doubt expectation' for your response will be for you to reference, probably even quote yourself, your thread where you emboldened the word "majority", giving yourself an excuse to exclude someone like me from your narrow-minded definitions of 'educated believers'.

Not at all.. you were clearly indoctrinated when you were a child.. you just said as much.

Quote:

Discrete Examples:

Oh ya.. here we go...

Quote:

In engineering school, many aspects of our world get simplified into standardized equations. These equations, in application, are essentially a set of rules for behavior that the world exhibits. Oddly, equations for VERY different systems will have the same structure, essentially the same rules. Why might it make sense that a photon of light traveling through space would behave under similar rules to water flowing through an aqueduct or the same rules as heat traveling through a rifle barrel? Why would the equations for gravity, magnetism, or ionic potential be nearly identical? Or why would inductive magnetism follow the same equation structure as gyroscopic stabilization? Why would the radiative decay of radio-isotopes used for carbon dating behave under the same set of rules that apply to the metabolization of an acorn by a squirrel's stomach?

Yes, two plus two equals four in every subject.. There's also up, down, left, right, forward and backward.. But the rest of your non-specific analogies are misleading at best and mostly just illiterate horse babble.

Quote:

Why should a human being have the same physical structure as a deer? Why would snakes have remnants of legs? Why is it that a spider's leg (an invertebrate species, mind you) has the same fundamental structure as a human limb? Why does all living matter on earth share a common foundational structure for genetic blueprinting (DNA)?

Ah, I get it now.. You believe in god because you can't explain or don't understand the universe. That clears it up...

Quote:

Why do all life forms on our planet rely upon CO2 or O2, and H2O? Regardless of our species specific transport strategy (lungs, gills, book lungs, etc) and despite the extreme differential in species genetics, all animals rely upon oxygen, and all plants rely upon carbon dioxide, and both depend upon water.

All that education, all those degrees.. and who's is trying to prove how smart they are? You don't see me bragging about that stuff in here..
Since you seem to have COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY missed Biology 101, Gardening 101, Chemistry 101, and a few other classes I can't even think of, it seems improbable that you have all the education you claim to have.
There are hundreds of lifeforms that live without oxygen.. For some of these, oxygen will kill them. There are those that thrive off of sulfur, iron, and a whole bunch of other elements.. Biology isn't my thing but pretty much any high school kid knows this stuff.
What happened to all that education?

Quote:

Now consider these questions and the broad reaching 'coincidental' similarities between these well defined rule structures in the context of the highest order irrefutable rule of our universe: the increase of Entropy. If our universe, and arguably our planet, is as old as science has 'proven' it to be, and originated in the way that science has proven it did, how did a non-selective entropic universe develop a planet with an extremely SMALL set of universal rules? (Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting here that I disagree with the scientific theory of the age nor origination of the earth or universe.) For a system to behave in an isentropic, or even decreasing entropy state, the work required to combat the 'decay of universal structure' must be entropic. In layman's terms, someone or some thing had to put in the work, in an entropic release, to create all of the unified structure and organization that we have within our universe. An explosion does not result in order.

What kind of techno-babble are you trying to pass off? ROFLMAO..

Quote:

That is why I believe. I may not believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, and I may believe in the expanding universe (big bang theory), but science has shown me that a well structured set of rules exist, which contradicts the very nature of the universe in which they exist, and therefore SOMETHING has to have written those rules.

If that's what makes you happy.. But while you're trying to prove to everyone how educated you are with a bunch of nonsensical babbling you're hoping others don't understand, you might want to double check the oxygen thing and educate yourself.

Quote:

But, reasonable words falling on deaf ears or close minds are both similarly heard. It's your leg, keep on kicking a dead horse if you so enjoy it.

I'll bet that even the dead horse knows that there are lifeforms that do not require oxygen.

You're Dismissed.