Champlain Islander

IMO the biggest single aspect to having a good herd is habitat. Unfortunately the tree huggers fight logging operations and want to see all large tracts of forest uncut and after a while they mature. Great for hiking but no food for the deer. It seems that they have been allowing quite a bit of cutting in this state but only softwoods which has decimated the winter yards. Our department is frivolously spending time and money to force AR (branch antler) down our throats but all the while have lost sight of the real issue of habitat. Our numbers have steadily fallen since the AR came into law about 5 years ago. Preliminary figures from our just completed seasons indicate we are down about 20-25% from last year which was dismal in its own right. Vermont probably hires the low end biologists who can’t get a job anywhere else.

BOWHUNTERCOP

I can't speak for other state other then my home state of NJ. In 97% of the state for the last 13 plus years the state allows deer hunting for 6 months this alone puts stress on the herd, we have earn a buck first, then we have unlimited antlerless deer to be taken, some zones have a 3 point on one side rule. The herd here in NJ is at a all time low, there was a time seeing 30, 40 deer per day was common, now your lucky to see 5 per day!!!! By no means is seeing 30 plus deer per day a good thing, but seeing 5 per day isn't either. The problem with NJ is, we are broken into 50 plus deer zones, with different set of rules, there should be statewide rules for all zones. I hunt on Federal Lands here in NW NJ, this zone is the most restricted zone there is in NJ, as far shorter seasons, the amount of deer allowed to be taken, etc., but the state refuses to change things somewhat to help the herd out, the average buck in this zone is a forkhorn, with some nice bucks seen/taken from time to time, this area is mountains with very few crops. On the other side of the river is PA, also part of the same Federal Lands I hunt in NJ, in PA they have antler restrictions for a few years and it's working, NJ's deer people say it will not work in NJ. Simply put this area is a large public hunting area, where many resident weekend only hunters and noon residents hunt, restrict them, and you have a chance of losing money. The Ole Mighty Dollar plays a part in everything !!!!!

petasux

It takes a lot of things coming together to get a healthy deer herd and for the most part statewide deer management doesnt work.And truthfully theres some, probably a lot of places that just dont have all the ingredients to grow big deer.Theres other places that have all the things needed but either the state or the hunters themselves arent willing to do whats neccassary to make it happen.

People think of Iowa they automatically think of big bucks and expect it to be just like on tv when they hunt here.Truth is theres only a few places in the entire state that will consistantly produce truely huge bucks.And most of the property in these areas is privately owned, leased, or off limits to hunting.

The areas where these bucks are at have things the rest of the state doesnt, suitable habitat, excellent food sources, being private the hunting pressures easily controlled, and statewide we dont have a gun season during our rut when the big bucks are most vulnerable.By the time shotgun season opens the ruts long gone and the big boys are laid up and recouping from it.And the gun seasons are very, very, short.

If we implemented AR in the rest of the state though it honestly wouldnt effect much of anything because we simply dont see a lot of spikes and forkhorns around, we wind up with mostly small racked 6 and 8 pointers and most of the ones I see are 8 points.I hunt almost everyday for 3 months every year, and have for 20+ years and in that time I havent seen maybe 100 deer that were smaller than 6 points.I can recall killing exactly 2 deer that were smaller than 8 points, one was a 6 pointer when I was younger and the other was a spike I killed the last day of bow season this year.

But we dont have the habitat for them to stay unnoticed and theres pretty much an open door policy for deer hunting most of this area, the farmers regard tham as giant rats and want them dead.Gun hunters given just a few days to hunt each year wack whatever comes out cant be selective if they want to tag a deer and I cant blame them.A few years back the insurance company lobbied to get the herd reduced, they never stopped reducing it after thier goals were met and now its almost alarming how few deer we see in a season, this years been the worst in memory.But that could be a whole different post in itself.

scribe

Managing a deer herd for the public is extremely tough on public land. I am a staunch advocate of QDM on private property. It is the duty of the state agency to manage all wildlife in a manner that is ecologically sound, biologically sound and economically feasible. It is not their job to manage for larger antlers.

Many hunters confuse QDM with TDM. QDM-Quality Deer Management has nothing to do with antlers. It is not about producing trophy bucks. It is about producing a healthy deer herd. One of the bi-products of that is sometimes large antlers.

What one hunter may deem neccessary in the area where he hunts is often based on his lack of seeing large antlered deer or in most cases, a day of hunting where he sees 12 does and one small buck. he then begins to believe the buck/doe ratio is 12/1 and all the bucks are young.

A pre-hunt buck/doe ratio of 12/1 is impossible. It is also impossible to determine a sex ratio based on what a hunter sees. It is even more impossible to determine age strata based on what a hunter sees. You can't get an accurate census based on hunter sightings.

It is also impossible for a state agencyto micro-manage a deer herd. In the overwhelming number of times, that is exactly what the hunters are requesting.

For the above reasons, many state agencies hands are tied. Here is a classic example of what I talking about. In state "A", the deer herd is healthy, the sex ratio is perfect, the age strata is among the best in the country. Despite all that, there is a very vocal minority of deer hunters who because they are not killing "trophy" deer want to see the buck bag limit reduced and AR's imposed and more does killed.

There is no ecological or biological reason to change a single thing. Therefore, the state, wisely so, changes nothing. They manage a deer herd based on factual data, not hunter desires or missinformation. This happens all the time.

Add another bump in the road. If you give hunters what they want, many times it is not at all what they expect. It is hard to convince a hunter that a 1:1 buck:doe ratio is terrible in most places. They do not understand that once a buck reaches 3.5 years of age, you may never see him again. They don't believe that just having more mature deer doesn't mean they are going to kill one. They often don't understand that clearcutting is sometimes a good thing or that just having a large tract of hardwoods doesn't mean they are going to have plenty of mast.

In short, even on private property, the key to deer management is education of the hunter, not killing less bucks and more does.

Where I live and hunt, the deer are healthy although we may have too many of them. I no longer manage deer or hunt for large antlers. I pretty much shoot whatever comes by if I want to. I don't always want to and let a lot of deer walk. However, if a young buck comes by me and I see a superior body type and great potential, I let that one walk. Most of people around me are the same way and none of us are trophy hunters. However, very seldom do we see a buck in our area that will gross 135.

There is not one thing any of us can do about genetics no matter how we tweak our computer models.

It has been raining for three days. The low tonight will be in the 20's and the forecast for tomorrow is for clear and sunny with a light west wind. I believe I have a stand needs some fanny time. I'll let you know how that comes out.

Sfury

QDM is about managing the herd. In a way to have a good buck to doe ratio, but to also increase the genetics of the breeding deer with good habitat and feed.

Wisconsin really began the QDM programs that work everywhere with simple rules. Good feed, good cover, good bucks left alive initially, and taking enough does to keep the buck to doe ratio low enough to promote daytime movement of bucks.

You should hear the guys who live in the Buffalo County area and how they deal with bucks. Low potential bucks are culled often. They hurt the QDMs goals and have to go. As time goes on, there is less and less of a need to cull the smaller bucks because the genetics of those who survive are the ones with bigger racks.

ARs are useless because they look at one aspect of hunting. QDMs can work if the people who participate in them look at the big picture. Which typically is the case in Wisconsin. It's why we harvest so many large racked bucks every year now in certain areas of the state.

WV Hunter

If you used the 16" inside spread where I hunt, I would have killed 2 bucks in my life. In fact, in our 25yrs hunting our WV farm, we've only taken 5 bucks wider than 16" (at least 8-12 guys hunting per year).

16" is too wide in most areas. The avg 3.5yo in our area sports a 14-15" spread, and if he's lucky 100" of antler. It sucks, but its the truth and we have to deal with it.

This year our 3 bucks killed were all 3.5.
Mine scored 90" but was all busted up...prob would have been about 100".
The other two scored 98" and 105". All very nice bucks in our area.

I know other areas are much different, and have to be handled differently. We pass 95% of the bucks we see, and have been for years. We also shoot alot of does. Herd is much healthier...buck/doe is better (but still too high) and the racks are bigger than ever. Our rule is shoot what makes you happy...it works for us.

Ghost of the hardwoods

Many years ago, when I was still living in Upstate NY. My father and I had the opportunity to manage property along with about 11 other hunters and the surrounding properties. There was 13 of us in all. My father and I solely hunted on about 256 acres of land that only us were granted permission to hunt.

Our hunting range spanned over 5 property lines and consisted roughly of a little bit more than 1100 acres of privately owned land in total. On adjacent properties other hunters were allowed to hunt along with us.

After my second hunting season, the group of guys got together and and decided they wanted to do some "deer management" Some guys wanted antler restrictions, other guys wanted to focus on buck to doe ratios, some wanted to focus on culling off only the largest does.

Either way, everyone's ideas of management varied in some way or another. Regardless, we had opportunity at our fingertips! Or so we thought. Land owners already had abundant crops in the fields, and the hardwoods where full of nut trees ranging from the varietals of oak, to beech nut and hickory on some of the ridges. The area also showed promise with the amount of browse and slash for winter time forage. And a cherry was added to the top of that Sundae because a farmer also had crops of winter wheat and oats in a couple of his fields. Summer forage was also abundant with a large alfalfa and clover field that got hayed at least twice per year. But corn was probably the most abundant crop that we had. Either way, there was a large variety of food available and we experience large bodied deer at our harvests. To give you an example, a 2.5 year old deer coming from those woods had no problem reaching field dressed weights of 170 pounds or a bit more.

My 3rd season came around, and the stage was set for us to manage the herd. Opening day was over and we drove up to one of the farmer's houses. There were a couple deer hanging in the barn. Much to mine and my father's surprise......"Along with a couple of the other hunters also" We seen that 2 of the hunters had 2 button bucks and a doe hanging from the rafters. ( These where the guys that voted for antler restriction mind you) Neither hunter clearly knew what a " mature animal was.... seeing the button bucks weighed about 80-100 pounds respectively.

Most of us hunters walked away pissed off. We couldn't believe that these guys couldn't tell the difference between a mature deer and a yearling deer???? Well a couple weeks went by and another hunter shot a 3 pointer that was a year and a half old. I said...."What the hell, I have been passing up basket rack 6 points and you shoot this thing????"

From that day on, it caused dissension amongst the hunters of the property and a bunch of the guys said... "screw it!!!! From now on...if it's brown it's down." And thats the type of stuff I had to deal with on the surrounding properties for years and years to follow. If you let a deer pass on your property, those other guys would shoot it for sure.

In my experience, management of any kind will NEVER be accomplished unless EVERYONE that is involved works hard to achieve the goal at hand...... and even more so important, everyone has to be on the same page as to what deer management is.

scribe

As I said in another thread...I think, the most effective form of management is education of other hunters.

Valentine

it's keeping a deer herd that's not too large or not too small. If a state needs several hundred thousand hunters to harvest deer, we will never see perfection.

Now if you own five or six thousand acres, keep most of the deer on the property, can reduce the excess, judge rack and body size, control harvest of antler size, you might find greater success.

Where is my lottery ticket ????

Champlain Islander

Unfortunately that is often what is needed today with the dramatic focus on big racks (horn porn) and spending all that is necessary to get them. Back in the day good hunting property was a given and at the most would require a visit and handshake with the farmer. Today that handshake has to have some C notes mixed in. Still Ok here in Vt other than a lot of posted land by non hunters. Then again the hunting is so bad nobody would pay for it. Believe it or not at our deer meetings with the F&W department people actually didn't want AR in the belief that if successful it would drive private property owners to start to charge for hunting privileges on private property like in the mid west.