A question of ethics (what would you do?)
 

Good morning, everyone... Since it's Sunday (and we still can't hunt on Sunday in Virginia! :bash: ) I wanted to ask a question about something I stumbled upon yesterday out in the George Washington Nat'l Forest in Virginia.

I drove out to the George Washington Nat'l Forest (looking for that beautiful 8 pointer that I missed the shot on the last time I was there). I spent the day out there settling in here, moving over there, giving space to other hunters, etc... I decided to pull into one of those primitive campsites/forest road pullovers, since nobody was there.

Upon walking further up into the campsite, I heard the buzzing of flies and couldn't believe what I saw... Someone shot two deer, and left the carcasses there to rot!

One was a apparently a nice buck, and had his skull cap sawed off and his brains were gone or eaten out. His hide was still intact, but his entire lower half (butt, hips, guts, etc..) was eaten out and there were huge claw marks all over him from a bear.

The other was unidentifiable, as it had no head at all, no hide, and again, half the carcass was all clawed up and eaten out by a bear.

I didn't know what to do... I was looking all around for a bear and was nervous that I would end up between a bear and his food. I had my old Garmin eTrex GPS in my pack, so I marked the primitive campsite as a Waypoint.

Anyway, I just couldn't believe that someone would do that and just leave complete (or half complete) deer carcasses there to rot! What kind of sick person would do that?

Should I put in a call to the Nat'l Forest's Ranger District and give them the GPS coordinates, so they could check it out?

What would you do?

This.

And that is pretty awful. There are some dirty, rotten, soulless ghouls in all walks of life, deer hunting is no exception. Its best to notify the proper authorities so they can be on the look out for those things and with any luck, catch the scum and remove them from the sport.

I've seen it before around here too. Ususally on the side of the road. Just terrible.

You can report it but they will never find the perpetrator. It is a real shame and pretty infuriating.

However, I might be inclined to just forget about it. There is about zero chance of finding the guy who did it, and there is at least a small chance that the authorities become suspicious of you. I am not saying they have a reason to, I am just saying the LEOs are people and just like all other people some are good and some aren't. I tend to try to avoid contact with law enforcement unless it is necessary and/or there is at least a decent chance that they will catch the perp.

In reality, law enforcement isn't going to be fingerprinting deer carcasses or picnic tables, or taking molds of tire prints, over a few dead deer. It is a simple matter of resources and cost-benefit analysis. There is about a one in a million chance that they have some other evidence and your report will be the last piece of the puzzle they need. If it were me, that isn't enough for me to go through the headache and potential risk of contacting the law.

Nothing, stuff happens and whatever happened the people involved don't owe you any explanation which could be good ones. I've hunted there, surprised you found anything with all the scavengers round there. Shoot a deer there and not find it till the next day and chances are real good half of it will have been eaten. Stuff happens. What do you want a person to do with a half eaten deer? Probably thought nothing would be left in short order. Gigundous yote problem there.

I came upon something like that once, except more hair raising. Went onto a public ground and saw a dead deer, weird. Walked a few yards and there was another, very weird. Walked a few more yards and there was the third, that's when I started feeling a tingle. Looking to my right I saw a house about 200 yards away with the screen out of the second story window, I left quick. That's what I did. The dnr goes through those places every now and then and will find the dead deer and do what they do just like the rangers do in those campsites.

To answer your question on what kind of person would leave a half eaten deer, what did you do? I'm sure the rangers want people to call them every time someone finds a dead deer. They could've put them there. Just hunted an area in Va. that has hogs, those that manage the ground for some reason got the state involved. The state came in there set traps, caught and killed hogs, took blood and left nine along a logging road to rot. They're waiting for concerned people like you to call them.

Probably a waste of time to report it as the people got what they want and aren't coming back to get caught. Yes it is unfortunate that people will kill a deer for horns alone. I think if you don't eat the meat or know someone who does to give it to them, then you shouldn't be hunting. It is possible that they didn't find it till later and decided the meat wasn't any good so just took the rack, but 2 next to each other seems on purpose.

Around here I wouldnt mention it, mostly because the last couple crarcass piles I found the DNR left thier themselves.Also the last time we had a problem with someone shooting deer and cutting the heads off around here and i called it in it got ridiculous even trying to hunt the area i was in.By the end of season we had the DNR and the sherriffs office all looking for them and it was borderline harrassment.

The last straw was when we came outta the middle of the slough well after dark, after dragging a buck I shot for over half a mile, and when we hit the parking lot it lit up like a Christmas tree, flashing lights, flashlights, headlights, guys all over.A deputy saw my flashlight in the middle of the section and apparently called in reinforcements.They were pricks about it even though most of them had already checked me at one point or another.This was about the 10th time id been checked in a month and i was not amused.They didnt investigate the shootings, they just went straight to harrassing people that were trying to legally hunt and the poachers moved to the other side of town and never even slowed down.

Hrmm...

I suppose each state's department is different and more or less committed to serving the ethical hunting public. Its frankly sad that some places apparently suffer from an oppressive and difficult department to deal with.

I can only speak for here in Texas and we have an outstanding department. TPW, I feel, would do all they can to track down the right people and provide support to ethical hunters. The dealings I and my family over the years has always been positive. We actually caught some poachers on our lease years ago and they were dealt with, made to pay restitution to the land owner.

That said, I would report it. Your mileage may vary but to me, its the 'right' thing to do. Any law enforcement agency that would persecute and harass someone for reporting a crime has a serious problem.

Just playing the "devil's advocate" here, but how do you know the person who shot the deer was the same one that took the head and antlers? I have known some pretty lousy shots over the years and some even lousier trackers. If they shot a deer and it did not drop right there or the deer ran out of sight they were lost. I have found a couple decent bucks where the hunter "missed"....only for me to find the deer piled up a day or two later.

Now, I agree with you that it was probably some scumbag who did this but the chances of them being caught are slim to none. At times there are dangerous individuals floating around the George Washington Forest and the Jefferson National Forest for that matter. Anytime I hunted those areas I always carried a concealed weapon with me. Anything that happens there would not really surprise me.

What you should have done back when you discovered this was to report it and leave it to the rangers. Maybe they could do something maybe not but once you reported it you would have fufilled your ethical responsibility as a hunter.

Little things do happen from time to time that lead to offenders. An officer may have seen a vehicle at the site and jotted a plate #. An officer may have seen someone he ran an ID on in possession of the deer.

But as the deer have probobly been processed thru by bears at this point all there is to do is learn from what you should have done and do it next time.

I think you have thought back and questioned your action (inaction) because deep down you know what you should have done. Don't let it bother you too much because I'm pretty sure you will do things differently in the future should an opportunity present itself.

Call the wardens and let them know what you found and where you found it.

they people that did this are probably out shooting more deer and taking the heads and racks so they can brag to their freinds about what great hunters they are.


it is our responability as ethical hunters to get these type of people arrested and put in jail. If one of the anti-hunter types found a couple dead deer it just adds fuel to the fire about all hunts being out for trophies and not caring about the meat.

I believe they look into the brain checking for CWD.

Against the law.....
 

Cutting off racks and leaving the carcass is illegal in Michigan. Oh, and they WILL prosecute you. You have to dispose of the carcas/parts in a "approved" landfill, it used to be after you processed your deer you could throw unused parts out in the trash pick-up. Not anymore, you will get ticketed for improper disposal of infectious waste AND littering. BTW, who ever did that is despicable and immoral IMO. Turn it in!:deer:

Thanks, everyone....

I called the Nat'l Forest's nearby ranger district office yesterday, and left a message on their voice mail reporting what I saw on Saturday, and for them to call me back if they have further questions.

I doubt there is anything that could be done at this point, but, they might send someone out to check the carcasses and/or remove them from the spot.

A worse, and possibly more dangerous scenario would be finding the perps in the act. What then? Particularly if they see you. Obviously, if you are not seen, you have the opportuntiy to back out and call the authorities.

Unfortunately, that would be a dicey situation. Even if you are sure they are the perps (and not another party who just stumbled on the same site as you), You are dealing with armed people but, would a citizen's arrest allow you to disarm them and hold them for police? What if they resist? What are you able to do under your state's laws?

Lots of questions. Any lawyers out there that actually know?

I've hunted that neck of the woods...
 

Indian Graves Ridge to name one.

We don't know the circumstances of what you've found. We can't pass judgement on others, even unknown others whom we feel strongly about.
We simply don't know what happened.

On the other hand, almost every DNR ENCON office has an anonymous tip line in operation. Make use of it, protect our sport!

IMHO

Not sure trying to make a citizens arrest would be a wise move, considering the size and remoteness of the area. Would you let someone disarm and detain you in the middle of a 1 million acre forest?

No but, I would not be poaching either. My hypothetical was putting the reader in the place the originaltor of this thread. You come upon (to clarify) a situation of obvious illegal activity; what, if anything, do you do?

Play along and accept the situation. Then give us your answer. That is the point of the exercise.

That is what I mean.....as a law abiding, ethical hunter you would not let someone disarm you.....do you really think it is a wise move to try to effect a citizens arrest, in a remote area, on armed individuals you know nothing about?

As to what I'd do? I would get as many identifying features(physical description, liscense tag, type of vehicle in area) as I could and report it to the VA Dept of Game & Inland Fisheries.

Okay, but they see you. You do not know what they will do. What, if anything would you say to them as you back away?

I would sugggest everyone think about this in advance. It will be too late when and if it happens. The course of action, to the extent possible, must be decided in advance.

What would you do in your own scenario?

I would turn in the coordinates so the authorities can watch that particular area for it to happen again, they may never catch the person or people who did it but you never know. The DNR in MI will do periodic spot checks on places like that if they receive reports and often times they not only catch the individual but they get confessions from them about doing it in prior seasons.

Eat the backstraps

Exercising a citizen's arrest generally must involve a violent felony and the apprehension is necessary due to the belief that more violence or harm is likely if the subject isn't stopped.

But anyway..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9efgLHgsBmM

I'm with VAhuntr. I have been going down to either West Virginia or Maryland before Thanksgiving Day to hunt for years. Back when Pa. had a lot of big deer it was not unusual to see a big bodied deer laying in the medial of the interstate with the head missing and caped down to the shoulders (Pa. Rifle season opened in a few days). I often thought what stories would be told about the "Big one" they got. The smaller racked deer (I assume) just had the rack cut off. There is a hefty fine for doing this in Pa. but it does not stop them. Same with a deer laying along the road with the hind quarters cut off, it may have been a car kill instead of a poacher.

huh?
 

Are you kidding me? Turn it in and move on to your hunt. Disarm them? Wow.