Where do you draw the line?
 

I started a thread awhile back about pen raised deer and it looks like many have read it and even responded. The responses have made me think about how I hunt and what I feel about hunting. So I want to see where the line is drawn for each hunter. Not what do you consider hunting and what do you not. I don't want to start that again. Everyone is different and how people hunt varies from hunter to hunter. I will set up the rules. You Just tell me where you stop and if you want, why. Assume Each level you go down the degree of difficulty decreases.

Bow Only - Fair Chase, no mineral, no bait
ML - Fair Chase, no mineral, no bait
Rifle - Fair Chase, no mineral, no bait

Bow Only - Fair Chase, bait
ML - Fair Chase, bait
Rifle - Fair Chase, bait

Bow Only - Fair Chase, guide or outfitter
ML - Fair Chase, guide or outfitter
Rifle - Fair Chase, guide or outfitter

Any type of Non Fair Chase hunts.

My levels may not be the same for all but I can't factor everything in. Tried to keep it simple. No judgments here please. I just want to see what other hunters think. I am interested to see what others hunters views on hunting are.

I Bow - Fair Chase, no mineral, no bait

I bow as a matter of circumstances,
no mineral no bait as a matter of law here

that line is a personal choice which can change with the seasons,
some people can go out on 1st day and tag a deer,
that person may tire of such and raise his standards
some have to go out all year and may not tag a deer,
that person may tire of such and lower his standards

as long a you keep it legal and do it for the right reasons,
i wont object to your method of hunting,

Where hunting is being discussed, I used to draw my line @ as long as it's "legal and ethical".

Now, I just use "legal".

All weapons.......same answer.

Now, before someone takes that and sprints with it....don't assume I'd do anything, as long as it's legal. I just don't care (no, really....I don't care) what you do (as long as it's legal), hunting-wise.

I will utilize any technique/strategy/etc..., etc..., etc......as the mood strikes me (again, with no regard to weapon of choice).

So far that is exactly what i was looking for. Just one more thing. I want know what you believe in as a hunter and not just in practice. For example, you may not bait because it is illegal where you hunt so you don't bait. However you may believe in it as a hunter but you just don't practice it.

I use Bow and ML because that is the challenge I at this time prefer,the one shot one kill setting makes it a challenge for me. We can't use bait or mineral licks ten days before the season starts,it must be removed then. I would use it if I could for a couple of does to fill the freezer with good meat. After that I prefer to hunt for my Buck the old fassion way with no attractants,food or mineral licks. This is how I got my very first deer,a buck and I like it that way for now. As the season draws to an end with no Buck, I tend to be willing to lower my standards and go for a young one for the meat, but so far I have resisted shooting the little guys but it's not something I think is wrong.

GMMAT shares my view, legal rules. I don't like to go to the "ethical" discussion. When you really think about it, what is so dang ethical about sitting in a tree, on the ground, in a blind of any kind with a bow, rifle, or muzzy shooting an animal that is either going to get something to eat or to satisfy its reproduction urges?

I understand why a lot of eastern hunters manage land and put out food plots and even bait. If your neighbor has a buffet of vegetation and minerals on his land he's likely to draw the deer out of your property and it becomes a contest of who's got the best menu for the deer. I'd rather spot and stalk than any other method but that's the difference from hunting out west to hunting back east. I've shot one archery animal from a tree stand over bait that was a bear and it was really easy so to me it wasn't that big of a deal. Would I do it again? Maybe but I got that T shirt already.

This is just a re-hash of the "pen raised deer" thread re-phrased!
I'm with GMMAT and TC, I'll go with being "legal!" With all the pious hunters tearing each other down, who needs the Anti's to destroy hunting! We can run new hunters off all by ourselves!

I would prefer " No mineral, No bait, No food Plots, nationwide. Of course, you would see most hunting shows going off of the air, but I really wouldn't care. Use of any legal weapon in that state.

I cannot draw a line. I've seen way too much of the world and I know better not to. I also know there are way too many among us with blood on their boots-the blood from, or the result of, animals which did draw lines.

Todd said it best when he stated, "situational". For the most part, I am a bow hunter. I accept the challenge (a key component sometimes) archery gears provides. But even within that realm, there are species which have become easy for me to kill under the most “sporting” of situations (mule deer for example). Sadly, "legally" does not provide for a higher degree of difficulty, and I do hunt legally. I respect anyone who does the same. I do also find compassion for that individual who illegally sets snares to feed his family...the only means he has available to keep himself and his loved ones alive.

I am a professional hunter, I use rifles and whatever hardware/tools necessary to quickly and efficiently eradicate problems. I am, for example, not opposed to shooting pigs or wolves from helicopters. I will use bait to target a man killer...

In my heart I know when a hunt is fair; I also know that a hunt doesn’t always have to be fair.

I continue to evolve as a hunter-taking my game to as many courts as I can possibly experience in the short amount of time I have. Sometimes, "do as Romans do" works and other times it does not. I continue to learn things about myself-some good and some not so good. In the end, and after squaring up with myself, I hope I can reconcile with God.

I am the 1st options all the way. Do all my hunting out of treestands and groundblinds.

I wish I could say that all legal activities I am ok with but I can't. That would lead into a ethical situation and it has nothing to do with pen raised yada yada.........

I hunt on leased land (ground blind) and do it all myself. I went on a hunt in Wyoming years ago and after the owner showed us where we could hunt (800 acres) I did it on my own (and got a muley buck). For elk or something I'm not familiar with I could see a guide but it can't be fenced in land and must be fair chase. And I hunt with rifle. I want a quick, humane kill. Bowhunting is popular but I (personally) don't want the animal to have to bleed to death before it dies. The shock effect of a bullet and the huge internal damage (from a proper caliber) is usually quick. This is just my opinions and I know many look at it differently which is fine.

I use rifle, bow, and muzzleloader depending on the season. No bait or block. Some years the only thing I'll carry is the ole stick-n-string and never get out the rifle.

I still stick to my statement I posted in the pen raised thread:

To each his own, but my opinion on the subject is: If a deer is born or raised in a fenced in area ( no matter how many acres ) then it can not be considered wild, if that deer is shot then it can not be considered hunting.

Definitions(Merriam-Webster Dictionary):
Wild- A. living in a state of nature and not ordinarily tame or domesticated
B. growing or produced without human care or aid
C. not subject to restraint
D. not inhabited or cultivated
Hunting- pursuit of game
Game- wild animals hunted for sport or food

I'm a little confused with the wording in the opening post. Fair Chase, Minerals, Bait. What do you mean, chase them away from the minerals/bait in a fair manner? I don't care anymore. I used to be very ethical when it came to hunting, not so much anymore. The Pa. Game Commission wants to sell licenses and they keep passing laws to attract the sick, lame ,and lazy. Some of the laws are really quite attractive to unsportsman minded people. I just don't think it matters anymore.

Thanks a lot

How would these deer be any different than say the deer born on Anticosta, Afognak, and Kodiak Islands (again, to name a few). They're confined/restrained too, where can they go? "Success" is more dictated by "time" verses confinement in the places named above. Wouldn't you agree?

Those bowhunters who hunt within an urban setting(where the deer are accustom to people) are not really hunters then, right?

Where exactly do these conditions not take place to some degree or another?


hunt·ed, hunt·ing, hunted.

v.tr.

• 1. To pursue (game) for food or sport.
• 2. To search through (an area) for prey: hunted the ridges.
• 3. To make use of (hounds, for example) in pursuing game.
• 4. To pursue intensively so as to capture or kill: hunted down the escaped convict.
• 5. To seek out; search for.
• 6. To drive out forcibly, especially by harassing; chase away: hunted the newcomers out of town.

Taken directly from American Heritage Dictionary of The English langauge, 4th Edition.

Prey.

An animal taken by a predator as food b : one that is helpless or unable to resist attack

Game.

A mere part to the definition of "hunt". Please re-visit "hunt's" definition.

semantics
 

I have been watching this and the pen deer thread.
Aren't we really just participants in a great harvest?

If we followed the same regulations as other states, Texas would overpopulate in a couple years. what works for one region does not apply across the board. The last thing we need is the federal government telling us how and when to hunt. Most states do a pretty good job of managing their wildlife. They look at these animals as a resource, and so should we.

If you take away the monetary value of these animals, we will lose them all. More exotics can be found in Texas than in their native land. I would hate to see these animals dissapear.

Personally, as long as the animal can be harvested in a humane manner, all methods are fine.

For the sake of this discussion, it does not matter one flying flip what "Mr. Websters" definitions are!
There are 50 state hunting regulation books that define what hunting is in their respective states. If you are hunting by the area laws, you are LEGALLY HUNTING!
I have never hunted "pen" or "high fence" but its not my business if someone wants to pay the money and legally hunt a high fence ranch! And YES, there is a difference between high fence and a pen! If you don't know the difference, you probably couldn't find your way out of a 10,000+ acre "high Fence!" Where as, you can see from one side of a pen to the other!

Yes if you are going by state law you are "legally hunting", but state law aside, in my opinion (the point I was trying to make) is I don't feel like I am really hunting unless I am taking animals ( in my opinion ) that are wild. Which means they can travel in the wilderness as far as they want to without finding a fence. Deer can swim, cross roads, etc. but they can't jump these fences. Deer travel around 7 miles from the spot they were born (natures way of lowering the chance of imbreeding) to establish their new area within their first 2 years, and some bucks travel much further during the rut. Also, in my opinion, if they are raised and released I do not consider them truly wild, they were not born and raised naturally in nature. If someone wants to shoot fenced deer, bottle raised deer, or genetically breed pen deer within areas such as been discussed, I don't have anything against it, but I don't call it hunting. That's just my opinion.

The only thing that I plan on shooting in a pen would be a hog.