iamyourhuckleberry

AndersonMcC,

The operative words in your statement are, "I" and "to me". Could you please define "fine condition"? Are we all in fine condition? If a man feels he has all the time in the world, is it wrong for him to be more lazy than you? What's your hurry?

Let me relay a story. While in England, I was once told by an "english sportsman", "You Americans are barbarians! An Englishman would never shoot a pheasant or partridge in the a$$." (are you familiar with the way the brits and most Europeans drive/hunt birds?) As he was ranting, I was reflecting on the beauty of hunting behind a well trained pointer/flusher. He continued, "with anything other than a fine side by side". I was thinking, "With anything other than a fine 20 guage autoloader." I thought, "what's sporting about driving birds past a stationed shooter who has a shell loader sittig next to him? Where's the interaction, the actual hunting? At the end of the day, this man goes home no worse from the wear bar a sore shoulder. Me, on the other hand, I'm flat tired from chasing birds and dogs. He goes home with a heap of birds, whereas I go home with luckily one."

With that being said, who accomplishes more? Or, are the accoplishments just different. I've seen enough of the world to know the answer is the latter.

Tools...objects and items used to accomplish a designed task. In most cases, tools tip the advantage in favor of the user. A treestand places you high above unsuspecting prey. A camera records the time and place of movement. A rifle outruns. A fence, river, moat, or island confines. Tools make the job "easier". How can you chastise one without chastising the others?

Humans are unique in that, through evolution, we can regulate our body temperatures. We literally have the ability to out distance animals (even horses) to bring about their demise.If you truly want to be "sporting" utilizing "fair chase" tactics, then track and out travel your prey to a point where it's exhausted. Use your canines and bury them deep into the beast's neck. You accomplish that feat and I will hand you my respect! Otherwise, hunt and let hunt. And please, do apply the degree of difficulty best suited for you!

Alltlk4

For the record I do not have a problem with a disabled person hunting in a high fence operation. That is sometimes the only way for them to get to the outdoors. They are at a disadvantage already. So to make it clear I think that an operation like the one I mentioned would be great for them, so let's leave them out of the arguement.

Todd1700

Well for starters it's an endeavor who's outcome is by no means a certainty. And lets be honest, at "many" of these high fence places the outcome is virtually assured as long as your check clears. Is that true of all of them? No, but I don't think anybody is talking about some place that has truly wild game and only one fence around the outside perimeter of a 10,000 acre ranch. Trying to define when something ceases to be hunting is kind of like trying to write a specific description of pornography. Hard to pin down in words the exact point it crosses the line but I know it when I see it.

As for what makes a trophy animal, well in my mind it is something that is rare or unique. Allow me to contrast where I hunt with one of these high fence operations.

First the deer on our land are truly wild. Their genetics are not controlled and that being the case a buck born with the genetic potential to be a monster is a little rare to start with. Then since these deer are actually subjected to real world hunting pressures many may not make it to an age necessary to be a monster. And even if they do they will likely have had three or four scrapes with death. In fact to make it to the age of 5 here a buck will have had to become a pretty sly and elusive creature that is mostly, sometimes entirely, nocturnal. His senses and behavior patterns have been honed towards avoiding all human contact. Seeing and killing a buck that age here in daylight during hunting season is either a great bit of luck, a very nice feat of skill or a combination of the two. Either way, it's a rare event and something to cherish.

Now lets look at one of these game farms. First you start will some brood buck at a farm or with artificially inseminated does. Either way the random chance of genetics are removed from the equation. Then these bio engineered animals are fed by humans (many being totally dependent on humans) until they have a drastically reduced fear of people. Some lose their fear of humans altogether. Then there's the fence which keeps large numbers of mature bucks in much denser concentrations than they would "ever" remain in the wild. End result? You end up with a place in which huge bucks are common as dirt, dumb as a box or rocks, don't fear humans, and can't wander off the property. In short you have removed everything that made that animal a rare, coveted and difficult trophy to kill except the horns.

And there is why these places persist. The horns. Because people with more money than skill or patience that don't want to trust to luck or acquire the know how to kill a big buck under normal hunting circumstances can go to one of these places and just buy a big rack of horns. Cause all that matters to some is to be able to mount that big rack of horns on the wall and be able to truthfully say, "yep, I killed him". Which is of course technically true, they just won't be very forthcoming with the circumstances of the pet deer pen slaughter. Oops I mean hunt. LOL!


A doe killed in some of the places I hunt is more of an accomplishment than killing a big buck at one of these places. Now I know you are going to say that everyone isn't hunting for an accomplishment. Well then why mount the horns? Why go through the facade of shooting the tame deer. If you just like looking at big sets of horns then get on the internet and order a set of horns to hang on the wall. If it's meat you want Winn Dixie sells it way cheaper than paying one of these places 10,000 dollars for a 170 class buck. Oh make no mistake, the people who visit these places are just as obsessed with the accomplishment of killing big deer. They just want to cheat and can afford to do so.

Todd1700

Let me start by saying that I can come off a little more stern and nasty online than I actually am and I mean you no personal offense. But that said I just find the whole slippery slope argument on this issue to be ridiculous and a bit of a sham. It's a shield high fence supporters whip out to try and brow beat people into shutting up about such places because our complaining is going to "DESTROY HUNTING AS WE KNOW IT". Please lead me down this slippery slope. What am I going to do, get so mad at pen hunt farms that I join Greenpeace or start voting with PETA? Really? Seriously? I already said in my first post that I could no more see making this illegal than making it illegal to run a farm where you slaughter hogs or chickens. It's the same thing.

But you are right about one thing. Hunters are a minority. But thankfully the anti hunting wackos are an even smaller minority. The true fate of hunting is in the hands of a huge middle ground of people out there that don't hunt but are not anti hunting nuts either. And I can tell you for a fact that when they see footage of one of these pen hunt operations they don't like it. And to hear it called hunting damages their opinions of hunting. I am convinced that calling what goes on at these places hunting is a far greater threat to the future of our sport than any disagreement among hunters on an internet forum. That is why I am quick to point out to the nonhunters I encounter that these places "do not" represent what 99% of the hunters out here are doing.

iamyourhuckleberry

objection...speculation.

Put a number on it...exactly how many acres provides a guarantee? What type of cover is present? Hilly or flat? What is the basis of your opinion? Again, pure spectulation!

I know it when I see it too, but I'm not trying to push my aeasthetic off onto someone else. If they feel it's more ethical to shoot a fish in a barrel, who am I to say otherwise? Remember the objectives! All too often we hear those within our ranks say, "I hit it too far back and I didn't recover it after a sleepless night." Does such a thing happen with high fence animals? If we're going to spectulate, then my specululation is no. The animal is rendered freezer meat-mission accomplished.That person did what others couldn't; why shouldn't they be proud? It's not my aesthetic, but I'm certainly not going to belittle them.

I knew my definition would be different than yours. My definition would not include either rare or unique. To me even a doe is a trophy. They are neither rare nor unique-there are a million of them! If I pull the trigger or send an arrow and the end result is a slain beast, I'm giddy as a toddler on Cristmas. I also have a gift (i.e. my trophy).

Who said anything about bucks? Are you imposing your aesthetic? What's a monster? Oh I see, a five year old deer is classified as a monster. Is that right? Does he require antlers? Would you shoot him if he was missing his head gear? Again, you are imposing your aesthetic.

Wild deer never jump in, and you'll never see a deer jump out...nope, such things never happen!Again, without actual facts, figures, and concrete evidence supporting this claim then this entire statement is spectulation and a sterotype.

Objection...Speculation!

Speculation...perhaps they want to sleep at night knowing they didn't wound an animal nor did that animal go unrecovered. It's not beyond the realm of possibilities. Maybe their aethetic is different than yours...

Read the section I wrote about tools. Despite what you think, these folks are still hunters. They just use a different set of tools than you do. Is a fisherman who uses barbless hooks better than a fisherman who doesn't...bait verses lures...flyrod verses casting rod...fish in a barrel verses fish in the ocean? Why are you so bound and determined to have others hunt your way? Where's the threat? Which do you think will disappear first 1) the livestock industry or 2) the public wildlife trust? Personally, I'm going to support both to keep the base as large as possible.

Todd1700

Did you miss the part where I said that I have no desire to see this illegal. In fact I have said it twice now. So please explain how I am forcing anyone to hunt as I do? Oh that's right you can't cause you just yanked that little snarky yet wrong remark right out of your @$$. If you want to go shoot glorified cows in a pen knock yourself out. But if you can't feel good about yourself unless I kiss your @$$ and stroke your ego while you do it then tough ####. I call it like I see it and it's slaughtering animals in a pen not hunting. And less you think I'm some isolated rogue espousing some weird opinion, I'd remind you that B&C and P&Y agree with me which is why you cannot enter an animal with them killed behind a high fence or on one of these game farms.

So anything you don't like or agree with you just erroneously rename speculation. Nice. Why don't you try sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling it with your eyes closed. That way you can never lose a debate. Well, at least not in your own mind.

Alltlk4

Ok guys we are going after each other more than I think we should. It is great discussion but I want to interject. Right now there is a show on animal planet, "Captive Hunting Exposed". It is an undercover look at the world of canned hunts. Let me first say I watch animal planet sometimes. It is not an anti hunter network, they have many shows that follow conservation officers to catch illegal hunters and such. On the show they show the difference between fair chase and canned hunts. They even go to a sporting show and talk with hunters about canned hunting and how they are against it.

Well what I saw I know I am against. They would sit in a blind and the "guide" would heard these animals toward them. It was like they were pets being let to be slaughter. Elk, sheep, ibex, bison, you name it they hunted it. It was pathetic. They caught a guy killing a ram in a pen. Animals that were tranquilized. THIS WAS NOT HUNTING. They had a kangaroo for crying out loud. It was nothing short of hunting in a petting zoo. They could walk up and touch some of the animals. People that see this and think this is what hunters do. It makes us all look bad. Take a look at it and decide for yourself. This is an extreme canned hunting. No 10,000 acre fences. This is small, like 200 acres or less. I think this is something any sportman would be against.

iamyourhuckleberry

Todd,

Nobody is forcing you to do anything!

I simply asked, WHY ARE YOU SO BOUND AND DETERMINED TO HAVE OTHERS HUNT YOUR WAY? You speak slightingly of those that do not do it your way at every turn. There's this for example

and this
and this
and this
and this
and this
and finally this
Hope that explains it. Frankly, you haven't clue what you're talking about, but you're super fast to point out what you deem to be inadequeacy.
Case and point. Thank God this is just your opinion, and thank God I and a million other hunters do not subscribe to either B&C or P&Y. You'll find my name all over SCI's record book though. I'm sure they allow fair chase "estate" hunts in their book!
No, actually "spectulation" is the process of creating a work with the hopes of selling it. It's a conclusion, opinion, or theory reached by conjecture. That's exactly what you've done, and I've simply pointed it out. I will gladly pay attention to any factual evidence you present-as soon as I finish fingering myself and yelling (brilliant).

iamyourhuckleberry

Altlk4,

More than likely, I would be against it too. But then again, I'm against any portrayal of animals being kill and placed within the public's view. Let's face it, there's nothing pleasant about killing something-although it's a necessary part of wildlife management. I kill. When I do so it's between me, God, and my prey-nobody else. That's how I roll...

SJAdventures

It's just one of those things. You either ar OK with it or you aren't. It is not for everyone that's for sure. But if that is what you want and it is legal than nothing wrong with it. It is not my job to determine what is hunting or who are hunters. I've seen a lot of hunters who would not think about hunting anything but free range that I wouldn't step foot in a woods with. Just because someone hunts nothing but free range doesn't automatically make them a hunter and the same goes with high fence hunting. JMHO.