Ethics question
12-09-2009, 07:36 AM
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
This is by no means a legalism. It goes back to the ancient Greeks and the church dealt with issues like this from the beginning. Obligation to civil authority is acknowledged by Jesus himself in the "render unto ceasar" remark and his acknowledgment that Pilate bears a legitimate authority.
The question is really about knowing when one can disobey a law. There are instances when you can and cannot, and its vital to know the distinctions because if its done incorrectly, it leads to anarchy.
Some serious biblical sholarship on this passage would benefit you. "What is in your heart" was not the basis for David's actions, nor for Jesus' acceptance of them. The real basis was the intent and purpose of the precept. That particular injunction was highly restricted in its scope to concerns about proper honor to God in Jewish religious ritual.
It simply isn't the case that this passage auhorizes someone to disobey a legitimate civil law. There's nothing in the passage to suggest that Jesus was giving anyone that kind of authority. There are certainly instances where civil law can be set aside, but this passage doesn't indicate that. The example is really about the role of the old law in the new covenant.
Be sure that you don't compare apples and oranges. Civil law and the Old Law are not the same thing. They're very different and the bases for setting them aside are very diferent as well. When Martin Luther King and Ghandi did it, they didn't refer back to passages like this; they referred back to precepts that were much more universal.
The question is really about knowing when one can disobey a law. There are instances when you can and cannot, and its vital to know the distinctions because if its done incorrectly, it leads to anarchy.
Some serious biblical sholarship on this passage would benefit you. "What is in your heart" was not the basis for David's actions, nor for Jesus' acceptance of them. The real basis was the intent and purpose of the precept. That particular injunction was highly restricted in its scope to concerns about proper honor to God in Jewish religious ritual.
It simply isn't the case that this passage auhorizes someone to disobey a legitimate civil law. There's nothing in the passage to suggest that Jesus was giving anyone that kind of authority. There are certainly instances where civil law can be set aside, but this passage doesn't indicate that. The example is really about the role of the old law in the new covenant.
Be sure that you don't compare apples and oranges. Civil law and the Old Law are not the same thing. They're very different and the bases for setting them aside are very diferent as well. When Martin Luther King and Ghandi did it, they didn't refer back to passages like this; they referred back to precepts that were much more universal.
What would have happened to a starving man if he entered the temple in say David's Kingship, and he ate the showbread? What do you think would have happened to that man? Nothing? Civil disobedience? Publically flogged? I am just a good ole country boy, not the scholar you are, but I got a sneakin suspicision, it would have been ugly.
12-09-2009, 09:42 AM
#42
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Central Illinois
Posts: 1,099
Really not an issue! Your son LOST his deer, simple as that. Private land is just that... PRIVATE.
You shouldn't EVER assume that anyone should allow you to tromp around their private property while you search for your deer.
Here in Illinois, no one can enter your property to pursue or search for wounded game, regardless of wether it's posted or not. I like it that way and for that reason our property is strictly PRIVATE! I'm not allowing anyone to cross my fence. My best advice to them is this.... you shouldn't have been hunting close enough to my property line for your deer to cross in the first place and if it did go a long ways... you're probably not going to recover it anyway.
You shouldn't EVER assume that anyone should allow you to tromp around their private property while you search for your deer.
Here in Illinois, no one can enter your property to pursue or search for wounded game, regardless of wether it's posted or not. I like it that way and for that reason our property is strictly PRIVATE! I'm not allowing anyone to cross my fence. My best advice to them is this.... you shouldn't have been hunting close enough to my property line for your deer to cross in the first place and if it did go a long ways... you're probably not going to recover it anyway.
12-09-2009, 10:01 AM
#44
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14
Gentlemen
I appreciate your input on this matter. We have a long history with this neighbor and their continued adherence to "what's mine is mine and what's everybody elses is mine" is what prompted me to send the certified letter requesting they stay off of our property without our express permission. This occurred over a year ago after we had tried lets be friends, have a beer and sing kumbya. If the situation were reversed, prior to this incident, had they asked I would have let them retreive the animal. This neighbor also has a reputation with most of the other neighbors as being an ahole.
If this situation occurs again in the future I will call the local DEC officer and they will hopefully pay the fellow a visit and probably find an untagged deer hanging.
Be safe
I appreciate your input on this matter. We have a long history with this neighbor and their continued adherence to "what's mine is mine and what's everybody elses is mine" is what prompted me to send the certified letter requesting they stay off of our property without our express permission. This occurred over a year ago after we had tried lets be friends, have a beer and sing kumbya. If the situation were reversed, prior to this incident, had they asked I would have let them retreive the animal. This neighbor also has a reputation with most of the other neighbors as being an ahole.
If this situation occurs again in the future I will call the local DEC officer and they will hopefully pay the fellow a visit and probably find an untagged deer hanging.
Be safe
12-09-2009, 10:57 AM
#45
Fork Horn
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 473
At times adjacent landowners are anti-hunting and they don't want hunters on there land period. I have one like that. Would they let me retrieve a wounded deer,I don't know, maybe a dead one they would, They would not go along as they could start crying at the sight. I surely would not ask unless I knew for sure it was dead. I would go around there property (40 acres) and see if a blood trail comes out. All the rest of property owners would allow it. Here in Wi. CO. do not enforce trespass laws so that wouldn't do any good. Private property is still private and hopefully will stay that way. Would I let those neighbors come on my land and look for a lost dog or horse,of course I would, thats how we are. Being a landowner that doesn't live there can also cause hard feelings or leasing land.
Redclub
Redclub
12-09-2009, 03:32 PM
#46
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: central and east texas
Posts: 4,894
do waaaa?
i think you might be meanin to quote someone else, it just doesn't make sense here.
Last edited by halfbakedi420; 12-09-2009 at 03:37 PM.
12-09-2009, 03:36 PM
#47
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: central and east texas
Posts: 4,894
this is not the nicest way of putting it, but it is spot on.im sure if IL thought real hard he could find a nice way to put it.but that certainly isnt a requirement.
Really not an issue! Your son LOST his deer, simple as that. Private land is just that... PRIVATE.
You shouldn't EVER assume that anyone should allow you to tromp around their private property while you search for your deer.
Here in Illinois, no one can enter your property to pursue or search for wounded game, regardless of wether it's posted or not. I like it that way and for that reason our property is strictly PRIVATE! I'm not allowing anyone to cross my fence. My best advice to them is this.... you shouldn't have been hunting close enough to my property line for your deer to cross in the first place and if it did go a long ways... you're probably not going to recover it anyway.
You shouldn't EVER assume that anyone should allow you to tromp around their private property while you search for your deer.
Here in Illinois, no one can enter your property to pursue or search for wounded game, regardless of wether it's posted or not. I like it that way and for that reason our property is strictly PRIVATE! I'm not allowing anyone to cross my fence. My best advice to them is this.... you shouldn't have been hunting close enough to my property line for your deer to cross in the first place and if it did go a long ways... you're probably not going to recover it anyway.
12-09-2009, 07:05 PM
#48
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eagleville Missouri
Posts: 338
If my deer went onto other property it is lost. I would call the property owner and inform him. If he wanted the deer he could have it, if he offered to allow me to get it I would get it. You know when you hunt near the property line that this can happen. I've sat on line fences and watched huge deer that just would not cross to my side, and of coarse the temtation is there, but you can't do it! You did the right thing, and you tried your best. In Missouri you absolutely cannot cross onto property where you have no permission, no matter how many dead deer are laying within sight, no matter if you can reach through the fence and pull them through, you can't do it. The MDC will not allow it and your tag says on it that you must make every effort to retrieve your deer, but this does not authorize tresspassing.
I had a neighbor who shot a 14 point two years ago and she tramped all over my lease looking for it. I heard the story and it had already happened and I was pissed. Not because she wanted her deer but because she never called me to ask. I would have searched with her, or for her, but she had no right. So when my Bro inlaw found those antlers I told him to keep them if he wanted and he did. I could have and would have given them to my neighbor if she had followed the rules and called me before entering my land, but she didn't. Her husband asked me before season if they could retrieve game or shoot over the fence. I said no, not without calling me because, I have hunters over there who paid to hunt and we can't screw up their hunt, by just walking in or shooting deer that may be standing in front of them. So I said call me and I will arange to get your deer without pissing anybody off. Apparently he never passed this on to his wife or anyone else that hunts his land. He has had nothing but trouble from his other neighbors for the same reason. They tresspass without asking.
I had a neighbor who shot a 14 point two years ago and she tramped all over my lease looking for it. I heard the story and it had already happened and I was pissed. Not because she wanted her deer but because she never called me to ask. I would have searched with her, or for her, but she had no right. So when my Bro inlaw found those antlers I told him to keep them if he wanted and he did. I could have and would have given them to my neighbor if she had followed the rules and called me before entering my land, but she didn't. Her husband asked me before season if they could retrieve game or shoot over the fence. I said no, not without calling me because, I have hunters over there who paid to hunt and we can't screw up their hunt, by just walking in or shooting deer that may be standing in front of them. So I said call me and I will arange to get your deer without pissing anybody off. Apparently he never passed this on to his wife or anyone else that hunts his land. He has had nothing but trouble from his other neighbors for the same reason. They tresspass without asking.
12-10-2009, 06:39 AM
#49
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NE Kansas
Posts: 1,101
As for the question of what a starving man would experience after eating showbread in a temple, it doesn't appear to matter. I won't answer the question until you show me its relevance to the issue: under what condition can a person disobey civil law.
12-10-2009, 07:58 AM
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
No. What I am is someone whose occupation requires him to be knowledgeable of what experts are saying about scripture and its meaning so it can be applied to people's lives.
As for the question of what a starving man would experience after eating showbread in a temple, it doesn't appear to matter. I won't answer the question until you show me its relevance to the issue: under what condition can a person disobey civil law.
As for the question of what a starving man would experience after eating showbread in a temple, it doesn't appear to matter. I won't answer the question until you show me its relevance to the issue: under what condition can a person disobey civil law.