head shot/ethics
10-28-2009, 02:38 PM
#101
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
You bring your best bow, and I'll bring my best rifle, and we'll shoot for pink slips! 
Mike
10-28-2009, 03:37 PM
#102
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Port Neches, Texas
Posts: 5,514
I should have never opened up this thread! To argue with an idiot, you have to go down to their level! Anyone who thinks that those that don't take head shots is because they "can't" is just full of themselves!
10-28-2009, 03:41 PM
#103
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 190
Are you really sure you want to make that wager???? This ain't my first year with a bow. Besides your best rifles effective range maybe say 300 - 350 yards if your any good. My bows effective range is 50 yards and thats a 2" group on a deer size target from a tree stand. Can your rifle shoot a 2" group at 350 yards off hand. I thought not!
Lets be serious, you know what I mean!
LET THE GAMES BEGIN
Lets be serious, you know what I mean!
LET THE GAMES BEGIN
Last edited by 7MMXBOLT; 10-28-2009 at 03:44 PM.
10-28-2009, 04:53 PM
#104
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
Too bad you don't live a little closer, I sure could use a nice bow...
2" groups at 50 yards = 4 MOA. My Savage 30-06 shoots 1.25 MOA consistently with the cheap Winchester Power Points. My 257 Wby... the AVERAGE group is right at 0.7 MOA with handloads. These are raw numbers based on benchrest load testing. If you want to shoot "field conditions," I NEVER shoot offhand at an animal. Never have, and likely never will. You can shoot your bow from your stand, or however else you like to shoot in the field, and I will do the same, which is kneeling with the forearm supported by a fixed object. You can shoot at 50 yards or whateve range you're comfortable with, and I would shoot at 200 (which is the farthest I'm able to practice at, since that is the length of the longest rifle range in my area), or 4 times the distance you choose to shoot at, whichever is less. If the best you can do at 50 yards is 2", or 4 MOA, then all I need is to keep them all inside an 8" circle at 200 and I own your bow. Easy money! If you ever pass through eastern Iowa with your bow, send me an email, and I'll be happy to win that bow from you!
Mike
2" groups at 50 yards = 4 MOA. My Savage 30-06 shoots 1.25 MOA consistently with the cheap Winchester Power Points. My 257 Wby... the AVERAGE group is right at 0.7 MOA with handloads. These are raw numbers based on benchrest load testing. If you want to shoot "field conditions," I NEVER shoot offhand at an animal. Never have, and likely never will. You can shoot your bow from your stand, or however else you like to shoot in the field, and I will do the same, which is kneeling with the forearm supported by a fixed object. You can shoot at 50 yards or whateve range you're comfortable with, and I would shoot at 200 (which is the farthest I'm able to practice at, since that is the length of the longest rifle range in my area), or 4 times the distance you choose to shoot at, whichever is less. If the best you can do at 50 yards is 2", or 4 MOA, then all I need is to keep them all inside an 8" circle at 200 and I own your bow. Easy money! If you ever pass through eastern Iowa with your bow, send me an email, and I'll be happy to win that bow from you!
Mike
Last edited by driftrider; 10-28-2009 at 05:14 PM.
10-28-2009, 07:44 PM
#105
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: maine
Posts: 139
Horse Hockey! Anyone who wanted input about ethics, head shots, small calibers or baiting could look at the thousands of debates that are already archived! Just admit it, you just wanted to stir the pot!
I should have never opened up this thread! To argue with an idiot, you have to go down to their level! Anyone who thinks that those that don't take head shots is because they "can't" is just full of themselves!
I should have never opened up this thread! To argue with an idiot, you have to go down to their level! Anyone who thinks that those that don't take head shots is because they "can't" is just full of themselves!
I have my opionions and you all have yours. btw i havent argued with anyone and havent told anyone they dont take headshots because they cant so if you would not quote my post and then make statements like that it would be great iveseen what this thread has turned into and would just delete it if i could its absolutely not the response i expexted
10-28-2009, 08:08 PM
#106
Spike
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2
Failed Head Shot
Never had to take a head shot at a deer, dad had to on a cow elk. at 220 yds 2 inches low, shattered jaw I had to chase for 7 1/2 hours while it choked on its own blood. Meanwhile mine was on the ground 10 yds from where the bullet hit. Elk are more durable but that said mine did not taste near as gamey as his. No one can sit here and say they will put every shot in a 1 1/2 grouping every time. Not saying I wouldn't just realize the outcome if it doesn't work and be willing to accept outcome. Pops and I had a little talk following that incident, so we'll see what he does next time.
10-29-2009, 02:38 AM
#108
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,695
This is not always correct, I've saw poorly hit deer fall down flopping from what looked like a flesh wound. I shot a doe once with 11 witnesses at 585 yards, an extra 6mph breeze up higher on the ridge moved poi from poa about 12", she was hit behind the ribs bullet hit hide in, hide out just under the spine, she fell over kicked a couple times and that was it, the guy who butchered it told me, he had no idea what killed her.
If shock doesn't help kill game why is it you have way more DRT deer using a fast lighter bullet from the 25/06 or one of the 6mm's than you do with the standard 270's and 30/06's, you can say it isn't so but I've saw hundreds shot and these are the results I've seen.
flesh is 70% water, water moves with the impact, it makes stuff happen like the blood goes backwards through the major arteries, and the shockwave hits the spinal cord and travels upwards to the brainstem, overwhelming the central nervous system shutting all processes down immediately.
This fluid in motion is why you can see the bullet impact a deer if recoil doesn't make you lose the sight picture.
and BTW, once most folks think they know all there is, the learning process stops.
RR
If shock doesn't help kill game why is it you have way more DRT deer using a fast lighter bullet from the 25/06 or one of the 6mm's than you do with the standard 270's and 30/06's, you can say it isn't so but I've saw hundreds shot and these are the results I've seen.
flesh is 70% water, water moves with the impact, it makes stuff happen like the blood goes backwards through the major arteries, and the shockwave hits the spinal cord and travels upwards to the brainstem, overwhelming the central nervous system shutting all processes down immediately.
This fluid in motion is why you can see the bullet impact a deer if recoil doesn't make you lose the sight picture.
and BTW, once most folks think they know all there is, the learning process stops.
RR
I seen that happen to me, my son shot a spike with the exact same shot, just under the spine, this one however did not die, we had to shoot it again.
Theres definately something going on on impact but its not energy or shock, its more like pressure, hydraulic pressure more so.
shock is the wave ahead of a bullet that passes the materials sound barrier, air sound barrier is 1125 fps and is easily acheived by a bullet, but not in the body. The body which is close to water has a sound barrier of 4900 fps, a bullet will never cause a shock wave in the body. Its more like hydraulic pressure. And does cause some damage, more temporary than permanent but it does do damage.
KE has to be converted to see it real affects. and when converted to say watts you'll see its not enough to boil a cup of water.
Its not the KE thats killing its the work done by it. IE a bullet expanding and tearing tissue or the pressure it creates.
Last edited by zrexpilot; 10-29-2009 at 02:48 AM.
10-29-2009, 08:28 AM
#109
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 2,414
[quote=rosco1099;3486934][quote=fingerz42;3484314] The deer will NOT drop everytime due to shock.
I'm a neck-shooter. Not a head shooter. But I will say that you are wrong. Every deer that I have neck shot drops DEAD in their tracks and no, they did not all break the spine. The SHOCK on the neck and all of its veins and arteries causes an instant brain anurism...instant death...ethical. How is it ethical the let a deer run around bleeding for 20 yards, 40 yards...100-200 yards?[/quote]
Rosco 1099,
Uh. You're kidding right? Given this statement then bow hunting is unethical. Is that your belief? This is exactly what happens just about every time with a bow.
Also. A heart lung shot with a rifle is unethical in your estimation? Because more often than not, they will run.
I'm a neck-shooter. Not a head shooter. But I will say that you are wrong. Every deer that I have neck shot drops DEAD in their tracks and no, they did not all break the spine. The SHOCK on the neck and all of its veins and arteries causes an instant brain anurism...instant death...ethical. How is it ethical the let a deer run around bleeding for 20 yards, 40 yards...100-200 yards?[/quote]
Rosco 1099,
Uh. You're kidding right? Given this statement then bow hunting is unethical. Is that your belief? This is exactly what happens just about every time with a bow.
Also. A heart lung shot with a rifle is unethical in your estimation? Because more often than not, they will run.