Whitetail Deer Hunting Gain a better understanding of the World's most popular big game animal and the techniques that will help you become a better deer hunter.

.223 for Deer Hunting

Old 10-30-2009, 03:19 PM
  #121  
Giant Nontypical
 
DoctorDeath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Huntsville Alabama
Posts: 6,486
Default

Im not a big fan of deer hunting with a 223 ...I shot a buck with one several years back ...it was at about 100 yards in the woods ..the first shot he never even flinched ..so I shot a second time ...still was not sure if I had hit him ...when I got out of my stand to check I found very little blood ...I finally found the deer ...when we filed dressed him we found that both shots had conected...the deer inside was nothing but jello and the exit wound was so small that there was just not much of a blood trail.

dd
DoctorDeath is offline  
Old 10-30-2009, 03:52 PM
  #122  
Nontypical Buck
 
driftrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
Default

One thing that I notice with the above (hand drawn, so there is no guarantee of accurate scale) representations, is that the scale is different between the .223 illustration and the 30-30 one. Assuming that the pictures are accurately drawn, if one scales up the 30-30 illustration to match the horizontal scale of the 223 illustration, then the 30-30 permanent wound channel is virtually the same size vertically, the temporary stretch channel is larger, and the penetration is almost 22cm (about 9 inches) deeper. 23.5cm is 9.25", which is just deep enough to go through the vitals of a deer, assuming only soft tissue is encountered and the shot is direct through the ribs broadside. Since the above tests seem to have been conducted without hitting bone, we don't know how the .223 would perform attempting to pass through the shoulder, and on a quartering shot, the penetration would be marginal to inadequate. The 30-30, on the other hand, demonstrates roughly twice the penetration of the 223, which would suggest that it would have far fewer problems penetrating bone and dense muscle, or driving deep enough to get through to vitals on a quartering/shot.

I would also say that the bullet used for the 223 test was a 50 grain SP which, based on the age of the data being sometime between 1981 and 1988, would have likely been a varmint bullet. A modern .224" bullet designed for more controlled expansion and in a heavier weight meant for deer sized game, like the Barnes TSX or Nosler Partition, would likely demonstrate better penetration at the cost of a somewhat narrower wound channel than a fragmenting varmint bullet creates by virtue of near instant disintegration on contact.

Mike
driftrider is offline  
Old 10-30-2009, 03:53 PM
  #123  
Giant Nontypical
 
TFOX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
Default

Your obviously not understanding what you are reading and not even comprehending what you are referencing.You obviously don't know how velocity/mass= ke.Then add to that bullet design and actually trying to make the bullet yaw so it will slow down.Remember,my argument in my original response was that penetration is not the main objective and said nothing about having MORE ke,it was in reference to utilizing the ke.


I never stated not to use the .223,but I do not reccomend them.There are too many much better option for kids.I don't like a 30/30 either(personal preference) and I have killed plenty deer with both.I prefer the 7mm-08,.270,.260,.308 and all are manageable for kids with light loads.My reasoning is pretty simple,kids get shook(buck fever) regardless of how good they shoot off the bench.They make less than desirable shots.I prefer to have the absolute most amount of damage possible on these kinds of hits.I have several nephews and 2 kids of my own and have tracked SEVERAL deer from the .223 and .243 because of this and these kids can shoot.

Originally Posted by zrexpilot
Tfox your obviously seeing what you want too see, that graph shows me that the difference in bullets is what makes the difference not KE

Heres another graph
Note the .223 has less KE than the 30-30 and the 12 gauge slug but has a bigger wound channel.

Velocity baby !

The .223 Remington has a KE value of 1102 fpe.




The 30-30 has a KE value of 1536 fpe





The Foster type rifled slug has a KE value of 2222 fpe.


Last edited by TFOX; 10-30-2009 at 04:12 PM.
TFOX is offline  
Old 10-30-2009, 04:06 PM
  #124  
Giant Nontypical
 
TFOX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
Default

that graph shows me that the difference in bullets is what makes the difference not KE
Velocity baby
I agree the difference in bullet designs makes a huge difference,I doubt you will find anywhere I dispute that.BUT,velocity has direct bearing on ke.The more velocity from the same weight bullet will yield more ke,pretty simple math.


Creating bullet yaw upon entry slows the bullet making it utilize the POTENTIAL ke.

Saying ke has never killed an animal like you stated is a very innacurate statement.velocity and mass create ke.

So please,quit arguing for arguments sake and take time to read my post and understand them.

Last edited by TFOX; 10-30-2009 at 04:13 PM.
TFOX is offline  
Old 10-30-2009, 04:29 PM
  #125  
Giant Nontypical
 
TFOX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
Default

zrexpilot

Go actually read the whole article you got those pictures from.Pretty good read.I agree with most everything it says but one thing.They try to separate energy from stress.I disagree with this assesment.The 2 are interwoven imo.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3D60%26um%3D1
TFOX is offline  
Old 10-30-2009, 07:41 PM
  #126  
Nontypical Buck
 
zrexpilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,695
Default

Originally Posted by driftrider
One thing that I notice with the above (hand drawn, so there is no guarantee of accurate scale) representations, is that the scale is different between the .223 illustration and the 30-30 one. Assuming that the pictures are accurately drawn, if one scales up the 30-30 illustration to match the horizontal scale of the 223 illustration, then the 30-30 permanent wound channel is virtually the same size vertically, the temporary stretch channel is larger, and the penetration is almost 22cm (about 9 inches) deeper. 23.5cm is 9.25", which is just deep enough to go through the vitals of a deer, assuming only soft tissue is encountered and the shot is direct through the ribs broadside. Since the above tests seem to have been conducted without hitting bone, we don't know how the .223 would perform attempting to pass through the shoulder, and on a quartering shot, the penetration would be marginal to inadequate. The 30-30, on the other hand, demonstrates roughly twice the penetration of the 223, which would suggest that it would have far fewer problems penetrating bone and dense muscle, or driving deep enough to get through to vitals on a quartering/shot.

I would also say that the bullet used for the 223 test was a 50 grain SP which, based on the age of the data being sometime between 1981 and 1988, would have likely been a varmint bullet. A modern .224" bullet designed for more controlled expansion and in a heavier weight meant for deer sized game, like the Barnes TSX or Nosler Partition, would likely demonstrate better penetration at the cost of a somewhat narrower wound channel than a fragmenting varmint bullet creates by virtue of near instant disintegration on contact.

Mike

I agree with everything you said.
I dont reccomend a .223 either, unless I was the one behind it. wink wink.
The whole thing I am trying to prove is kinetic energy has no bearing on lethality. 2500 ft/lb of energy doesnt equal a yugo crashing into a deer, the truth is a bullets impact is that of a fast pitch hard ball, thats the actuall force a deer feels. Roughly the recoil you feel is about the same as the impact on the deer.
Newton law, equal and opposite reaction.
zrexpilot is offline  
Old 10-30-2009, 08:54 PM
  #127  
Nontypical Buck
 
iSnipe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,304
Question

Originally Posted by zrexpilot
Roughly the recoil you feel is about the same as the impact on the deer.
zrex,

Haven't read all that you posted, but I won't say "BS" to what you said above, but I will politely say... "I disagree with that".

In fact, how about I get my .338 Lapua out, you put on some body armour and let me shoot at your chest/stomach, and we'll see if you still hold that statement to be your opinion?

I'd have no problem doing it because by your words, my shoulder should feel the same as your chest/stomach. Correct?

iSnipe

Last edited by iSnipe; 10-31-2009 at 11:59 AM.
iSnipe is offline  
Old 10-30-2009, 09:04 PM
  #128  
Giant Nontypical
 
TFOX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
Default

Originally Posted by iSnipe


zrex,

Haven't read all that you posted, but I won't say "BS" to what you said above, but I will politely say... "I disagree with that".

In fact, how about I get my .338 Lupua out, you put on some body armour and let me shoot at your chest/stomach, and we'll see if you still hold that statement to be your opinion?

I'd have no problem doing it because by your words, my shoulder should feel the same as your chest/stomach. Correct?

iSnipe

Can I watch
TFOX is offline  
Old 10-30-2009, 09:53 PM
  #129  
Nontypical Buck
 
iSnipe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,304
Default

Dang it TFOX! You 'bout made me choke on my toothpick!

LOL!

iSnipe
iSnipe is offline  
Old 10-31-2009, 07:55 AM
  #130  
Spike
 
Grey Wolf Alpha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Alabama
Posts: 4
Default Former Sniper chiming in; Voice of Reason

Originally Posted by Ridge Runner
Ok, several times a year this thread comes up, always the same guys using the same reasons as to why it won't work, why its not ethical, and why it shouldn't be done. and how many times have they tried the 223 on deer? about as many as these same guys who say you shouldn't kill a deer at 1000 yards, truth is they don't have a clue what the 223 is capable of but form an opinion anyway.
Why do I get irate about it? cause I know the 223 is an adequate deer rifle, I've taken at least 100 with them. shoot a deer with a 60 gr partition or a 64 gr win. power point and I guarrantee you you can't nor can the deer tell it from a 243 with an 85 gr partition. They make deer bullets in .224 for a reason!
You read the posts about no blood trail, no exit wound, etc. that BS is for guys who can't track. 50 yards from impact a lung shot deer is blowing blood from the nose and mouth, find that and you'll recover your deer.
My daughter is 11 now, she doesn't like recoil like the last generation of masochists do, she has a 243, even with youth loads she's uncomfortable with the recoil so she uses a 223 loaded with good bullets and she puts the smack down on them. sure she's a bit inexperienced, she gets excited, its my job to keep her calm and focused on the task at hand. If she loses control its my fault, but she's successful and has fun and doesn't dread pulling the trigger on her new 250/3000 savage because she experienced deer hunting with a rifle that would kill a deer and didn't scare her.
To all you nay sayers here is a list of what a 223 has done
took 9 of 10 top spots in the national highpower comps.
killed a prairie dog at 1,115 yards
shot under 1 MOA groups at 1 mile
got thousands of kids and females excited about deer hunting cause its a pleasant rifle to shoot and it works.
A gutshot deer doesn't know a 223 from a 300 win mag.
RR
This is not a rant but a call for common sense.

Yes and everything you say is true regarding the 5.56.

I have killed at just over 1000 meters. I have punched targets at over 1200 meters with the 7.62mm. Kills have been made in Iraq and the Afghanistan with the 5.56 at 600 to 800 meters.
I have killed deer with 5.56 at 200 meters and at 700 with the 7.62mm.

Point 1. Combat is combat. If I'm trying to kill my enemy I don't care what I use. Rifleman are trained to engage the enemy out to 500 meters for a point target. DMR shooters out to 700 or 800+ meters. Snipers-with the right weapon as far as you can see 'em. 7.62mm has done it out to 1200 m and then some. .338 Lapua 1600 m. 408 Cheytac and .50 BMG out to 2500 meters. 2400 is a mile and a half folks. BUT that is combat! Ethics here are not what they are on the field of hunting.

Point 2 Punching holes in targets is not HUNTING! Yes it helps prepare one for it but it is not the actual act. Many men have shot targets at 1000 meters only to choke at their first “time”. Yes the 5.56x45 with 77 grain and 80+ grains are winning the Camp Perry matches at F Compition and the Wimbledon Cup and 7.62x51 was doing some years before that. But that is still not hunting.

Yes, I've taken deer at 200 meters with the 5.56 and with a Mini 14 (180 Series, first one) for most of my younger life and with a 30-30. I knew the limitations of the round and used it in that envelope. The 7.62x51 was used on a Buck at a little over 700 meters on the farm. My family has always been military and stories of my father killing men at 600 meters with a M1 Rifle as well as those before him have been handed down. We have always been shooters and practiced our art.

Would my father have taken a long shot at a deer? Only if there was no other way to feed his men or his family. He did this in WW2 during the Battle of the Bulge to feed his men. As the story go close to 1000 meters or yards for his day. Broke the deer’s back. But they had full stomachs and it was an extreme circumstance.

Long Range Hunting is a special group all to itself and these hunters practice, practice, practice. They know the weapon and the round inside and out.

Ethics, ethics my friends. We as hunters are watched by PETA, Humane Society and all of the other anti-gun, hunting nuts. We must act accordingly. Or have our birthright demonized and with the sentiment of our present AG and President along with most in Congress we must jealousy guard that right.

The answer to deernmusky's question is; How long has she been shooting\hunting? Can she consistently hit targets at the same range she will be hunting at?

"Let me first say that I know this thread is going to start a huge debate. I live in Wisconsin and this year they just introduce a Mentored hunting Program for 10 - 11 year olds to start hunting. I have a 10 year old daughter who I think really wants to hunt."

I also take it he wants his daughter to hunt and her first experiences of taking game animals a good one. Not one that will be her horror at having an inhumane kill and never wanting to hunt again.

Grey Wolf Alpha is offline  

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.