Iron sites with a scope
 

I'm planning on doing some deer/black bear hunting in the mountains of Upstate New York this year. I just purchased a new rifle (Savage 116 in .30-06) and want to take it along. I'm planning to hunt both from a tree stand and on the ground. I had been planning on buying a Leupold 3.5-10x40 VX-3 because this is going to be my all-around hunting rifle.

Some up-close hunting situations (lots of foliage coupled with shooting from a tree stand for example) require a low power scope (which is often fixed). My question this: aside from backing up my scope in the event it’s unusable, is there an advantage to having backup iron sights added to my gun (that I can get to by using a quick release system for my scope rings)? I’m going to be in black bear territory as well.

I think iron sites, which we seem to only see on muzzleloaders these days, look cool. Scopes are pretty reliable, but there is the possibility of dropping them on a rock or something rendering them unusable on a week long hunt (and I don't exactly have the money for backup glass).

I also figure that hunters were using iron sights to hunt game for a long time. I would imagine shooting something within 40 yards from a tree stand is more than doable with iron sites. It also takes a little more skill than what is needed after you've magnified your target.

Any thoughts? Are there drawbacks to mounting iron sights? Are there clearance issues mounting iron sights and a scope simultaneously?

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

I dont have any issues with scope clearance on my 700ADL 30-06. I can see were using detachable rings would make iron sights usefull, I'v never needed them though.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

What about using a set of see through scope bases? I would say that 3 power would be low enough for a 40 yard shot, even a 10 yard shot. Just keep in mind are you sighting your scope in at 100, or 200 yards, keep in mind that your bullet will be high and that you should practice shooting at close distances as well to get used to shooting your rifle. Iron sights are an invaluable asset in my opinion as you stated not many people as you said carry a back up rifle scope and if one did your hunt would be over for a while, at least till you get the new scope on and sighted in. If you had iron sights you would still be able to take a shot if needed!

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

I have scopes mounted on see through mounts on all my rifles so that I can use my iron sights if necessary. I took my biggest buck to date with iron sights at about 60 yards.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Whitetail, what kind of setup including rings and base do you have on your 700ADL?

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

I don't remember having a need of iron sights on a rifle. I've shot deer as close as 5 yards using a scope. The high mounted see thru mounts make shooting a rifle a little unnatural over standard mounts IMHO. I had rather have a quality scope mounted with standard quality rings and bases.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

ADV, interesting idea (using see through scope bases). Does the scope have to be raised higher off the action/barrel for those to work?

I'm new to shooting, so excuse my ignorance, but I have never tried looking through a an ocular on 3x and firing at something rapidly from a tree or while walking through thick brush.

The reason I mention that is because my sister has a black bear problem at her house. They've broken into her car (the one time she accidently left an unopened mustard container and a package of rolls she was bringing on vacation the next day). They go on her porch, they've cornered my nephews scaring the bejesus out of them until they called her on her cell phone and had their older brother come out with their dog; things like that. They also walk through her yard with cubs...and that's the real danger.

I know black bear are usually timid and nothing to worry about, but I'm going to be hunting on her property half way up a mountain. I may only be able to see a few feet in front of me in some places while I'm getting from point A to point B. I remember watching Bear Grylls walking through blackbear territory explaining that, although bear attacks aren't common, when they do happen, they usually happen to hunters. Not only that, but that the bears sneak up on you and actually hunt you (as opposed to brown bear which is just about protecting their young and a territorial thing).

Black bear have 7x the smell of a blood hound, they run 30 mph, and they climb trees faster than a human can run. Again, I know I probably have a better chance of being struck by lightening on my hunt, but I don’t want to tempt fate. Are iron sights easier/quicker to acquire a target than my 3.5-10x40 scope? The more I think about mounting the see through rings the more I’m interested in them. There has to be a reason why everyone isn’t using them though.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Yes but not drastically, it does take some getting used to if you've never used them. In a charge situation I think that it would happen so fast that you would probably go for the quickest shot you'll have and that will probably be what ever you get to first and if not probably an off hand shot. I have yet to be charged and really don't want to be but I carry a 12 gauge pump just for such an occasion.

As timbercruiser stated you can shoot very close with a scope, your bullet will not jump much in the first 0-25 yards (nor have reached its twist to velocity rate) but it will be lethal just the same...

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Timber, is it because the scope is mounted higher?

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

my bar .270 has iron sights on it, for I guess if the scope ever did bust I'd have them as a back up option. Though really that's why you bring 2 rifles on a hunt...I'd much rather have a back up rifle than switching up to rifle sights.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Okay, that's what I thought (about the scope mounting a little higher). I'm not used to mounting a scope either way, so I should be able to get used to it just fine. I assume a quick release system is only different in the rings you use (and not different in the base). So if I want to mount my scope lower for other hunts, it's just a matter of switching the rings, right?

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

I think this might be the way to go. When I'm traveling from point A to B, I can leave the scope off. Once there (up in my tree for example), I can just pop the scope back on. While the scope is off, I'll still be able to line my sights up and the scope's base won't be in the way.

http://www.warnescopemounts.com/steel_bases.html

What are the chances of a black bear running up the tree? Darn, I can't bring my handgun to New York (NY doesn't have a reciprocal agreement Ohio) and I don't think your allowed to even bring a handgun into the state unless you're passing through.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Get scope rings that allow you to see the iron sights as well

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

3x9-40 scope, Leupold STD rings and bases, Medium height rings I think.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

If your sold on the necessity for installing iron sights, what all said regarding get a set-up with see through rings.

Personally, I would wonder why purchase a weapon without them, only to install them? Just sayin'.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

I didn't think about it until after buying my rifle. Plus, the rifle I purchased was very specific, and lefty, and most rifles of this kind do not come with sights anymore. I could have ordered it custom through Savage (and had them add sights), but I would have paid considerably more (and wouldn't have had a choice in sights).

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

#1 If you have a detachable then there is no reason for the see through rings.

#2 If you have the see through rings then there is no point of having the detachable base.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Agreed.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Also another thing to consider if your rifle is a specific set up, and you are looking for a cheap iron sight rifle look at wal-mart they can order you a NEF single shot in a assortment of calibers. I have been looking at doing the same for my youngest and buying a 243. I will say that a bear is a inquisitive animal and they have been known to climb trees to check out hunters in tree stands. Don't worry too much about the bear I hunt them from the ground usually from natural dead fall and have had bears come right to my brush blind and they usually turn and bolt once they figure out what is inside! Only be concerned if you have a sow with cubs if you are on the ground...

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Wow...I think I'd be a little intimidated if a black bear, even a relatively small one, snuck up on me.It's good to know they are almost always more afraid of us. Some are getting quite bold though.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

I would never go with the see-through rings. They force you to mount the scope way too high unless your rifle has a very high cheek piece. Having the scope too high will cause your to lose a proper cheek weld with the stock and effect accurate shooting. If I were worried about needing iron sights I would mount the scope in QD rings and bases. This will keep the scope properly positioned for your eye but allow easy removal of the scope to use iron sights if necessary. I think that you may be overly worried about scope failure though. All of my hunting rifles except my Savage 10ML either don't have iron sights at all, or have had them removed. The 10ML still has them, but the scope is mounted in conventional rings and bases. I do have the necessary tools to remove the scope in my field box which goes with me anytime I shoot or hunt, so removal would only require a trip back to the truck.

Mike

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Good advice driftrider. I was worried about that too.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'm ordering the Warne quick detach that will allow me to take off the scope and still see iron sights over the mounts (if I end up installing iron sights on my rifle).

I do have ONE more QUESTION...

Will iron sights get in the way of my field of view through a 3.5-10x40 scope?

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

No, they shouldn't unless the sights are very tall. The only problem I could foresee is that the rear sight, if mounted too far back on the barrel and/or the scope is very long, could physically get in the way of the scopes objective, preventing the scope from mounting unless much higher rings are used. I had this problem with a Traditions In-line once and had to remove the rear sight because it was in the way of the scope when I tried to mount the scope.

Below is a picture of my Savage 10ML-II. The scope could be mounted a bit lower, but it fits me pretty good as it is. The scope is well clear of the rear sight, and the sights are not visible through the scope.

Mike

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

That's what I'm talking about! I love those Savage muzzleloaders. I may end up buying one at some point. Hunting is turning out to be an expensive hobbie though!

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

I heard the same thing about the see through but I have never had an issue with it. I shoot just fine with it, 400 yard shots even. And it is on an old WWII rifle. But as I said if your using the detachable then there is no need for the raised see through rings.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

I love mine. Trust me, unless you're a hardcore (dare I say masochistic) traditionalist muzzleloader, once you try smokeless powder muzzleloading, you won't want to go back to the dirty expensive BP "substitutes". It's pretty darn accurate too. I love mine, but it's made my other muzzleloaders pretty lonely as they don't get out much anymore since the Savage came a few years ago.

Mike

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Having the laminate stock, you don't have this problem, but if I where to get the synthetic hardwoods version of the 10ML-II, I would be stuck with their flimsy stock. My new 116 in .30-06 has the Accustock which is a vast improvement. It's simply the best mass produced synthetic stock.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Yeah, the old style Savage composite stocks left a lot to be desired. I've yet to personally handle the new Accu-Stock, but the aluminum bedding channel has to be a vast improvement on stock stiffness. I just have a thing for laminate stainless rifles. My latest acquisition...

Mike

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Okay, this may be a stupid question, but are laminate stocks compressed/layered wood on the outside and some kind of plastic on the outside, or is it the actual wood on the outside and your'e seeing layers of wood that have been compressed together?

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

By the way, the Accustock is VERY rigid. It's not just the aluminum bedding; it’s a different kind of plastic. The forend simply does not flex. It's perfectly formed to the barrel with a consistent space between the barrel and the synthetic forend.I didn’t buy this gun for a long time because it was going to be expensive to buy a QUALITY replacement for the stock.

The Accustock simply makes this gun perfect for someone who doesn’t have the money to spend 1,000-2,000 on a rifle. It’s just as good as those expensive models minus some refinements that, if you have the money, would be the only improvements for the gun. For example, the Accustock is still produced via the injection molding process, so you’re still going to see a seam. Once I start getting a lot of scratches, I’m probably going to have it dipped in Realtree AP.

If Accurate Innovations starts producing a new stock for LA savage stocks with the slight changes made on the new models, I might go to that one day. Again, money is always a factor. With the Accustock, you can buy the rifle as is and no one can say the stock is a piece of crap; it’s not. IMO, they’ve really hit a home run with this one.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

One more thing, I love the look of that that rifle (having stainless and wood). It's slick.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Laminated wood stocks are made using wood and epoxy. The wood is usually birch, because it's hard but fairly inexpensive, and can be stained just about any color you could desire. The birch is cut into thin sheets (1/32" to 1/8" usually for gunstocks), dyed to the desired color, then the sheets are coated with a layer of epoxy and pressed together under high pressure, laminating the layers together to form a VERY strong stock blank that is basically high-grade plywood. The stock blank can then be shaped and inletted just like a standard solid hardwood stock. The advantage of laminate is that it is very strong, it resists moisture and weather almost as well as a synthetic stock by virtue of the epoxy it's bonded and sealed with, it's attractive and it feels like wood. The disadvantage is that laminate stocks tend to be somewhat heavier than both solid hardwood and synthetic stocks.

Mike

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

In regards to your idea of using warne rings, excellent choice! I have both fixed and QR warnes on hunting rifles, they both have been rock solid after being put through some tough hunting situations.

In terms of see thrus, not a great idea. Most are weak in design, which causes a potential for POI shifting. Being they mount the scope higher they are more suspect to bums and snags, personally i don't want a weak design in such a case. BTW, i have used see thru's and my opinions are based on experiences I had with them. The theory was sound but not performance proved impractical for my hunting situations. Includes rough terrain, boats, atv, etc.

You mention variable being a downfallto a fixed scope, however a lot of fixed scopes used are in fact 4x, the lowest setting of a 3x variable gives up nothing in those tight spots compared to a 4x fixed. I to haven't had a problem with a variable scope and shooting in close. As long as you have the ability to go down to 3(ish) power, you should have no problems.

I have been in close quarters with many black bears, whileI respect all bears the only ones I fear are sows with cubs. Momma can be very aggressive if she feels her cubs safety are threatened. Young boars can be unpredictable as well however they usually will not fall through with agression, make lots of noise and stand your ground if you feel they are put off by your presence. Try not to startle a bear, unless shooting it;)!Bears have very good noses, most times they know your their. As a result, growls, jaw popping, bull rushing, etcbehaviours are exhibited. If you remain calm they often will come in or just move on if truly uncomfortable.I won't sayI haven't had somenervous momentsbut never felt truly threatened by a wild bear. Garbage eater ordump bears I fear as they have little to no fear of humans. BTW, I bow hunt bears and we aren't allowed to carry sidearms or back up.

Good luck.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Although I know my chances of getting attacked are next to nil, I found a list of black and brown bear attacks on wikipedia's website. Wiki is an open source encyclopedia, so you have to take it with a grain of salt, but it's something to keep in mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rica_by_decade

Obviously, the last few decades have seen an increase in reported cases. The more we encroach in nature's territory, the more it will push back. Wiki also admits this is an incomplete list.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

i can see no reason not to leave the scope on the gun all the time,just buy a low power scope a 2 power will focus across a room. get a 2x7 x40 and leave it on. i killed a bear at 30ft last season with a 4x12 scope.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

If you are going away hunting bring a backup gun and pistol if possible. Don't forget to bring your pistol when you go to the outhouse.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

I absolutely hate see-thru scope mounts. I'd second using lever QD scope mounts so that if your scope dumps or you just want to use the iron sights you'd be good to go..

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Those see-thru mounts are by far the cheapest, flimsiest mounts one can put on a rifle. I honestly see no reason to put any sort of removable or see-thru scope mounts on a deer/bear rifle. One will have more accuracy with a scope in just about any situation. I can't see iron sights benefiting anyone other than a very experienced rifleman, and a rifleman with experience would probably do just as well or better with a scope also, so again I can't see much benefit in iron sights for anyone.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

Maybe I'm just old school here but I wouldn't own a rifle without iron sights. I have see through mounts on all my rifles and have never had one ounce of trouble with them. The scope on my Remingtom 700 has been right on every year since I installed it in 1981 and I've never had to reset it. It's seen a lot of action as has my Marlin and my Knight and they are trouble free as well. As far as shooting the rifle, I find it more comfortable to shoot with the scope slightly elevated as opposed to having to lay down on the stock to see through the scope. Different strokes for different folks. I suppose that's why they make all sizes and shapes.

Here's that 10 point I took a few years back with my Remingtom 700 using open sights. Notice the scope. I was manovering to try to get a shot and at some point, I knocked some snow off of an overhanging limb and filled my scope. When I leveled up on him he was quartering away and at a fast walk and I couldn't see a thing. I imediately droped down on my iron sights and made a good shot at about 60 yards.

RE: Iron sites with a scope
 

I start my kids out on iron sights and me son made a shot at 220 yards with an open sight, one shot dead muley doe! I have seen my neighbors daughter make a 235 yard shot with an open sight 30-30. It can be done, and by kids! People have just gotten so used to scopes they are just not good shots without the glass. Technology taking over!!! Now I am not saying a scope is bad, I use them but I also use my irons for anything under 50 yards. At any which rate, I agree with the others don't waste money on iron sights if the gun doesn't have them then just get a good scope and 3 power is good for what ever you need.