Dedicated Slugger vs. ML(update p3)
 

I am currently in the market for a long(er) range option to use as a treestand gun for the IL firearm deer season. It happens from time to time that a 24" rifle sightedsmoothbore just doesn't have enough.:D

Right now I have it narrowed down to a NEF USH(12 or 20) or a similar priced Muzzleloader, let's say $250-300 + scope. I'm looking at the CVA Optima or Knight Shadow at this point, but could easily go with something else.

- I have never owned a muzzleloader
- I am aware of the time it may take to get either one of these possibly picky weapons to perform like I want it, with the ML most likely taking more time.
- The single shot 'limit' of the NEF or the reload time of the ML doesn't really affect me. I'm usually a tightwad with my shots anyway, or I'm just that good.:D
-I am not in love with the idea of spending $3 for each sabot deer slug.
-Both weapons are perfectly legal to use during the standard IL firearm season, with the ML having an extra weekend later in the season.
-The Ml will open up the option of future out of state hunts(I have an uncle with some ground on the CO/WY border:D)
- I know how it will go in setting up the NEF, but my main issue at this point overall is the 'unknown' (to me) on figuring out the ML.

Settle the debate...

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I have the 1st generation Knight in-line Muzzleloader and shoot better to 100 yards with this gun verses my .270.
Extremly accurate with holes eclipsing each other.
I don't think you will be disappointed??!!

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

A modern muzzy with a good scope that you take time to get the best load figured out for should have a lot better range than a shotgun.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I know. I'm just hung up on taking the plunge into something that I have no experience with. I've been shooting my whole life, but never even touched a muzzleloader.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

Not yet owning one is reason enough to buy a ML. The extra weekend is a bonus too.

If you are at least moderately experienced with guns, Iwould consider a Savage smokeless ML, you could buy a $150-ish scope to make up the difference in the price of the gun. You will certainly get the range you're looking for. I can't say how fussy they are, but they are no worse than other MLs.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

Man that's alot of questions/variables.

The shotgun shouldn't be nearly as hard to get "set-up" (dialed in).
The shotgun will actually give you the option, given the chanceto re-load.
The shotgun will be easier to clean, keep clean and haveless potential problems.
20 gauge or 12 gaugewill suffice.

The ML may be a bit more accurate and offer some more range. (Alot is in the shooters hands)
The ML will be a bit lighter.
The ML can be used in other states for you.

In regards to the shotgun we have a couple H&R USHs. Mine is a 12 gauge and my boys have a 20 gauge. They both shoot fantasticly. We do sit alot of crop field edges and take longer shots. They have been loned out to others who have been wowed by them.

Good luck in what ever direction you go. Season will upon us in no time.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

Well, I just applied for a IL muzzleloader tag, so now that I'm already $16.50 in the hole I might as well go for the whole enchilada.:D

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I live in NJ, shotgun or muzzleloader only, and I also hunt Brown County, Illinois on my friends 2500 acre farm. I love hunting with both the shotgun and muzzleloader. If you get the muzzleloader then you can use it during the shotgun season and then in the muzzleloader only season. I do love my H&R Ultra Deluxe, I have it in 20ga. using Hornady SST Slugs

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

You really need to go get the ML. I have bowhunted and gun hunted for years and really enjoy the extra time in the field the Muzzleloader provides. I was hesitant to get into ML at first because I thought it was too complicated. I use it in rifle season here in NC now and it is great. My lady just got the TC Triumph and it is a great gun. It also came with a great DVD on cleaning/loading and options as well as abunch of hunts. Good Luck

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

well a ML is a nice option, but in IL, that only allows you to use it during 2nd firearm season or late season doe only ML season....so you'll still need a slugger for that 1st gun season....

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I had a USH in 12 ga and sold it. I got it because my remington ML was a PIA to deal with. However after using it for a few seasons I decided I liked the ML better. Price of ammo being one factor. The muzzle loader will also let you hunt two seasons in most states since you can use them in firearms season and muzzle loader season.

Paul

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

According to theIllinois Digest of Hunting and Trapping regulations, it is legal to use a handgun, muzzleloader, or shotgun during the firearm deer season. It is the muzzleloader deer tag that can only be used for the second season and muzzleloader only weekend.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

When you get your tag/license it'll spell it out, but last year 1st season gun deer, only a slug could be used, no pistol, rifle, ML, they'll spell it out with yoru information packet....but certainly know before you bring out that ML for 1st season, DNR catches you, and they will be out checking, you'd at the minimum be getting a ticket...

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

Last year we had a friend come out and hunt on our farms in Brown County, he wanted to use the smokepole, during the first firearm season. He checked with the DNR before going out, he checked with a local sporting goods store, and with a game warden, they all said he could use the smokepole for the first shotgun season

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I started hunting with a ML several years ago ... Lyman Plainsman in 54 cal., cap-lock. Slow twist, so round ball only. Fun to shot. Not fun to clean. Rather limited range. A few years ago I won a CVA Optima "Pro" in 50 cal. in a raffle. This in-line style is a whole different animal. Took me only a short time to get the load and bullet selected that worked well. Though it groups well out to 150 yards, the drop is pretty dramatic. I am not concerned about out to about 125. I have taken many deer with this rifle, out to about 125 yards. Relatively easy to clean and very accurate. However, if all else was even, I'd go for a rifled "shot gun". I have a good friend that has never made the jump to center fire. He has one gun and 3 barrels ... and old Wingmaster in 12 ga. His Hastings rifled barrel and whatever round he is using is accurate at the range. I've been with him sighting in at 100 yards. He's always at about 2-2.5 MOA. He's taken probably 150 deer with this rifle over the past 10 or so years. Most well under 100 yards, but a few well over too. None that I know of have gone far !

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

The only ML I own is a Knight USAK. I had taken it out for several range sessions without much luck until I found the combination it liked. Now I'm shooting 3 holes touching each other at 100 yards. Only my Tikka T-3 comes close to that. Here in LA I can hunt with ML 1 week before gun season and 1 week after gun I've been tempted to bring it out during gun season, but haven't talked myself into giving up the follow up shot. BTW it only cost $99 new at Wal-mart and I got it free for helping a guy out with a radiator swap. Without a doubt the cheapest gun I own and most accurate to boot. Sooner or later I'm going to upgrade the Simmons 8-point scope sitting on top of it, but for now why fix what isn't broken.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

Bull$hit...You could use slug gun, muzzleloader, or handgun during the first season. When I checked my deer in over the phone I gave the information that I harvested my deer with my MZ. They haven't come knockin on my door. I think you better read the regs.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I have 2 sluggers and 2 muzzies, love them all, but when given the choice, I have one particular slugger that is my choice......

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

wow that's news to me, I'm gonna have to dig up last years regs etc....I'm surprised I haven't heard more of our slug gun being a ML season now....or pistol.....

what defines a pistol? can that be a .243 or 7mm-08 weatherby pistol? wonder how accurate you can get a 7mm-08 from a pistol.....?

I may no longer use a slugger.....

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

looks like a pistol has to be a .30cal or bigger.....who makes a pistol in like a .308?

also not sure why anyone would get the ML only tag then...if the slug permit allows you to all and more....1st season, 2nd, and that late season if your tag is unfilled.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

salukipv1, I would be willing to bet money the pistol has to be a straight walled cartridge; 357, 44, and so on. About the seasons, cant you apply for both firearm and muzzleloader? You guys got some messed up regs, far worse than my state.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

In my opnion atleast where i live, the ML is more pricey then the slug gun and i have a slug gun too. between the cleaning products, the primers, the powder, the bullets, i like my ML but the slug gun is cheaper, my slug gun was already sighted in before i got it because the H&R test fire the gun when you get a new barrle, so i would go with the slug gun.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

i choose ML! They really aren't that bad with modern tech. They are for sure accurate. just keep it clean. I like cleaning my guns so the ML would be a nice choice.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

Dedicated MZ season is the next weekend after the second firearm season. It's county specfic like the other firearm seasons. Just extends your seasons if you want to firearm hunt. In my opinion the Illinois firearms seasons are too short....just my 2 cents though.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

That doesn't mean the gun is sighted in, it just means they test fired it and checked to see what the groups were, maybe. They do it with the Ultras and they don't even have sights on them, just a scope rail. NEVER assume a gun is sighted in from the factory.

As far as being cheaper, it depends on what slugs you are shooting I guess. No way in heck is it cheaper if you are shooting modern sabot slugs. I can darn near get a whole can of powder for what 5 rounds of premium sabots cost for a slug gun. And the guns fall in the same price ranges depending on what you want. You can get either for a decent price or spend a lot more if you want. In my area though I think you could get a ML cheaper than a slug gun. And there is no background check because it isn't considered a firearm. Just walk in and buy it. A decent slug gun is going to cost around 200-300 dollars around here, I am talking the single shot H&R's. I have seen whole muzzle loader kits for under 100 bucks before. Probably wouldn't be my choice, but they are out there. If I were to get another ML right now I would get one of the savages that can shoot smokeless powder as well. They are not too cheap though.

Lets base it on a the most common load for both weapons. Shooting a 20 ga modern slug gun is very similar to shooting an inline. They shoot pretty much the same bullet at close to the same velocities. An XTP type bullet in a sabot in either 45 or 50 caliber in the 300 to 400 grn range at between 1500 and 1800 fps. For a muzzle loader it breaks down to about a dollar shot, maybe a bit more maybe a bit less depending on the products you buy. For a shotgun shooitng the same ammo you are talking between 3 and 4 dollars per shot! That gets pretty pricey quick, especially if you are looking for a load your gun likes and trying different brands of ammo, been there done that. Even if you were shooting regular lead saboted slugs you are talking 2 dollars or so a shot. Rifled slugs are more comparable in price, but not in performance.

For me my ML after I worked up a good load for it was more accurate and had less recoil than my shotgun did, and my shotgun weighed like 10 lbs fully rigged. If you tested 3 different brands of ammo in your shotgun at 15 dollars a box it would cost you almost 100 dollars, and that only gives you two 5 shot groups with each type of ammo. I don't think I have bought more than 90 dollars worth of supplies for my ML in the 5 years I have owned it. And I shoot expensive bullets and powder, not standard XTP's and pyrodex.

From an ease stand point though if you have a good shotgun and find a load it likes they are hard to beat. Just shoot them, run a swab down the barrel and put them away for the most part. That was the appeal of it to me. My ML is a bit of a pain to clean, but some of the new designs are much better than mine. But my remington 700 ML will group better at 150 yards than most slug guns will at 75-100. And for deer sized game it's point blank shooting out to 150 yards. Meaning that if I hold the cross hairs in the center of of the vitals from 20 to 150 yards the bullet won't drop or rise enough to miss the vitals so I don't have to compensate for range.

I'm not saying you can't achieve this with a slug gun, but it's not the norm, I know that for sure. And you sure won't be doing it for a buck a shot. Where as with most muzzle loaders getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards should be doable with a day or two of range time. Most if it is just finding the bullet weight and powder charge your particular gun likes.

This has been my experience anyway.

Paul

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I would go with the muzzleloader. 1" groups at 100 yards are fairly easy to accomplish with the ML, and they hold well beyond 200 yards unlike most shotguns. Cleaning the ML does not have to be too difficult either, just get some good supplies and a simple design. The shotgun will probably always be easier to clean though. Still for the weight and the accuracy the ML is the way too go.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

well now knowing that, there is no reason to apply for both seasons....since you can use a ML in place of your slug during the full firearm season.....1st and 2nd, I thought the ML season essentially meant you could only hunt 2nd season and that late antlerless only season.....not that it was a special dedicated tag....

If you just get a firearm tag...then you can hunt both 1st and 2nd season with a ML so they're saying....and if that tag goes unfilled you can hunt that late antlerless only season.....also at least us residents can get a either sex and a doe only tag....so thats 2 tags essentially and 3 seasons to hunt....

I do all of my hunting during archery though.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

Illinois has too many firearm options in my opinion, they should just have all firearm seasons for "all firearms". I get a full season for Pope, a second season onlyfor Pope, and this is the first year I've ever applied for a MZ tag. I bought my first MZ about 1.5 years ago and now own two. Pope does not offer a bonus antlerless tag. I'd like to see them someday include centerfire rifles. I usually harvest two deer, if not one the first season, then I can harvest two the second season using both my full season and second season only tag. And we're still limited two two antlered deer. I have three slug guns and two muzzleloaders now. It's kinda a crap shoot what I take with me now.... I broughtout aold Mossberg 500 last year with a rifled cantilever barrel and Nikon scope and one of my muzzleloaders and took bothdeer with the muzzleloader.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I purchased a CVA Optima this week from a local store. Ordered a set of bases/rings and shotgun scope from cabelas and have everything on hand, ready to start testing.

I'm going out with a friend of mine today to try out some of the different primer/powder/bullet combos that I've got. It might be a long ordeal, plus we're going to have his 3 yr. old with us, so I'm not exactly hoping to be 'hunt ready' by the end of the day.:DTaking the fishing poles along, too.:D

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

With a top quality Muzzleloader like a T/C Encore Pro Hunter, you won't EVER have a reason to carry any other gun for whitetails in IL. I know I have NO desire to carry a big clunky shotgun when I have the option of a supurbly balanced rifle-like feeling Muzzleloader like the Encore. Top that bad boy with quality optics and you won't believe how accurate they truly are. Even my young kids hunt with the in-line rifle these days and prefer it that way.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

IL-Cornfed has it just about right.Buy a TC encore with a 20ga slug barrel ,Then buya muzzleloader barrel for the encore.I am not sure which is better.Both are deadly, 20 ga has never missed yet.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I use a ML in GA alot, but this year is my first time go to Illinois for ML. I just applied for ML tag yesterday, which will give me the opportunity to hunt 2nd seasonfirearm (4 days) and the ML only weekend(3 days). I'd have to buy the firearm permit to hunt the first 3 day season and being a Non-Resident, I couldn't justify the extra cost.

I concur that the Encore is a great choice. It is what I have and I am bringing to IL. I have a 3x9x40 Leupold on it and I will shoot .458 caliber 300 grain Nosler Partitions from a Sabot. I can shoot them pretty well out to 175 yards.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I have both a ML and aH&R USH, and can't say enough about each gun. I have the original Knight Disc and a T/C Omega with Thumbhole stock in .50 cal. I also have a 12 & 20 ga. H&R USH, each of my guns shoot exceptionally well.
As far as the Illinois seasons go, I love the fact that they are short 3 and 4 day seasons, I think it helps the Bucks in Illinois reach maturity. Look at our neighboring state of Indiana, the topography is nearly identical, yet they do not produce the quantity of big bucks as Illinois. Although I think Indiana has great potential, they have the 1 Buck rule.The only thing negative is that their season is so drawn out...........
As far as the seasons go, duringthe first firearm season you can use either a ML, slug gun or hand gun. The second firearm season you can use either firearm again, unless you have a ML only tag. During the second firearm season the 1st muzzleloader season starts. The following weekend is the 2nd muzzleloader season in which you can only use a ML. If this confuses people, all the state of Illinois is doing, is enabling people who get turned down for a full season fiearm permit, the option of getting a full season with a muzzleloader.(full seasons are 7 days of hunting)

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

I would just like to add that with each one of my USH's and ML's I have taken deer in excess of 125 yards.

RE: Dedicated Slugger vs. ML
 

Thanks everybody for the input. This goes to show that you don't have to make 50 posts in a day to have a good topic.:D

I went out with a friend of mine and his 3 yr. old son yesterday(see earlier post) with the plan of doing some fishing and some muzzleloader testing after that. Long story short, the muzzleloader never got fired, we kind of forgot about it after we had to pull off a 'baywatch' style rescue of the little guy when he fell off a boat dock. All 3 of us were within a few feet of each other at the time it happened, so it wasn't THAT big of a deal. It's just amazingthat in weedy/mossy/dirty water and while not wearing 'waterwings', kids sink like a brick.He wasn't under for 10 seconds and everybody is fine, thankfully.