To stop a deer in its tracks
05-18-2008, 12:09 PM
#31
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: H.R., Virginia
Posts: 1,044
RE: To stop a deer in its tracks
ORIGINAL: Ridge Runner
ok, its a myth that I've saw at least 50 times, why is it that in autopsies performed on DRT deer they discovered the capilaries in the brain ruptured on deer hit in the shoulder? what caused it? thinking too hard?
RR
ok, its a myth that I've saw at least 50 times, why is it that in autopsies performed on DRT deer they discovered the capilaries in the brain ruptured on deer hit in the shoulder? what caused it? thinking too hard?
RR
Please explain how countless veterans are walking around with bullets still in them. They should be dead according to what you believe, correct?
05-18-2008, 06:27 PM
#32
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: H.R., Virginia
Posts: 1,044
RE: To stop a deer in its tracks
Well, heres some documentation debunking it....from an expert. http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html
05-18-2008, 10:00 PM
#33
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location:
Posts: 398
RE: To stop a deer in its tracks
I started using Remington BuckHammer slugs this past year and I dropped my buck where he stood with a good old double lung shot from about 20 yards. He moved a total of about 20 feet from the initial shot.
05-19-2008, 10:29 AM
#34
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,462
RE: To stop a deer in its tracks
ORIGINAL: Mojotex
My $.02 on shot placement. With a high power, center fire cartridge, 243 Win. (6mm Rem.) or heavier hitter, any shot that will pass through the lung/heart area is the shot that I will take. For obvious reasons, a perfectly broadside shot is preferred. If I get that chance, I aim for just behind the shoulder about 1/2 up "height" of the deer's body. In my opinion that gives me the optimum chance of a clean kill and some room for 3" to 4" and maybe even6" error. A "heart shot" or "double lunged" deer will not go for and may just drop on the spot.It is not unusual for a clean, double lunged or heart shot deer to cover 50-200 uyards before going down. If they can stay on their feet even 10 full seconds, as fast as a paniced deer can run can be quiet a distance. That does not mean that the shot was poorly placed.It is rather a testament to the quicknees of a white tail.
My $.02 on shot placement. With a high power, center fire cartridge, 243 Win. (6mm Rem.) or heavier hitter, any shot that will pass through the lung/heart area is the shot that I will take. For obvious reasons, a perfectly broadside shot is preferred. If I get that chance, I aim for just behind the shoulder about 1/2 up "height" of the deer's body. In my opinion that gives me the optimum chance of a clean kill and some room for 3" to 4" and maybe even6" error. A "heart shot" or "double lunged" deer will not go for and may just drop on the spot.It is not unusual for a clean, double lunged or heart shot deer to cover 50-200 uyards before going down. If they can stay on their feet even 10 full seconds, as fast as a paniced deer can run can be quiet a distance. That does not mean that the shot was poorly placed.It is rather a testament to the quicknees of a white tail.
05-19-2008, 02:46 PM
#35
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: To stop a deer in its tracks
Hydrostatic shock does not exist, the effect might happen, but it's not "hydrostatic shock". The term simply doesn't exist in science, its an oxymoron. It can't be hydrostatic and shock at the same time. Maybe Hydrodynamic shock would be a better explanation. It's actually hydrodynamic pressure that creates cavitation. This is what causes the secondary wound channel.
Here is a quote from a paper written on wound ballistics:
"I don't know where this term originated, but it is pseudoscience babble. In the first place, these are dynamic - not static - events. Moreover, "hydrostatic shock" is an oxymoron. Shock, in the technical sense, indicates a mechanical wave traveling in excess of the inherent sound speed of the material; it can't be static. This may be a flow related wave like a bow shock on the nose of a bullet in air or it may be a supersonic acoustic wave traveling through a solid after impact. In terms of bullets striking tissue, shock is never encountered. The sound speed of water (which is very close to that of soft tissue) is about 4900 fps. Even varmint bullets do not have an impact velocity this high, let alone a penetration velocity exceeding 4900 fps. Some people use "shock" in the colloquial sense to describe a violent impact, but it is confusing, especially in connection with the term "hydrostatic" and lends undeserved quasi-scientific merit to the slang. It also tends to get confused with the medical expression attending trauma. We are not describing any medical shock."
Further more it has never been proven exactly what happens when this occurs, many studies have been done on it. Stunned and dead are not the same thing. There have been many instances where the deer has been shocked, fell to the ground and gotten back up minute later and ran away.
The paper goes on to say this:
"Before I become too dogmatic and overstate the situation, let me concede that there may be some merit to the idea that hydrodynamic (not hydrostatic) impulse created by bullets which have a high kinetic energy and generally exhibit violent cavitation, can cause some secondary effects due to pressure on the nervous system or heart. It is possible to kill manually by nerve "strangulation". In this case actual damage to the central nervous system is not caused, but the signals governing the heart or diaphragm are shut off, resulting in instantaneous unconsciousness or even death. Certain rare sports fatalities have been definitely attributed to a swift blow which interrupts the cardiac rhythm. Acoustic pressure on the spine can also cause temporary paralysis. These phenomena may account for the rapid effectiveness of some high-velocity hollow-point pistol bullets, especially in cases in which the victim is not mortally wounded and recovers consciousness within a few minutes. Several special handgun loads have been designed with no regard whatsoever to penetration (e.g., the THV bullet) in order to achieve this result. Unfortunately, this is an unreliable mechanism of incapacitation, generally obtained at the expense of effective penetration. No bullet yet designed will produce this effect even 10% of the time. Many of the bullets designed to utilize this effect can be defeated by common barriers, such as glass, sheetrock, and even clothing. Doing this deliberately by hand, even with a profound understanding of the mechanism and vital points, is extremely uncertain; using the passage of a pressure wave from a bullet to accomplish this falls into the freak event category. Such is never an acceptable mechanism for the hunter."
An animal is not dead until enough brain damage has occurred for it to not function anymore. And this is caused by starvation of blood/oxygen and takes time.
Paul
Here is a quote from a paper written on wound ballistics:
"I don't know where this term originated, but it is pseudoscience babble. In the first place, these are dynamic - not static - events. Moreover, "hydrostatic shock" is an oxymoron. Shock, in the technical sense, indicates a mechanical wave traveling in excess of the inherent sound speed of the material; it can't be static. This may be a flow related wave like a bow shock on the nose of a bullet in air or it may be a supersonic acoustic wave traveling through a solid after impact. In terms of bullets striking tissue, shock is never encountered. The sound speed of water (which is very close to that of soft tissue) is about 4900 fps. Even varmint bullets do not have an impact velocity this high, let alone a penetration velocity exceeding 4900 fps. Some people use "shock" in the colloquial sense to describe a violent impact, but it is confusing, especially in connection with the term "hydrostatic" and lends undeserved quasi-scientific merit to the slang. It also tends to get confused with the medical expression attending trauma. We are not describing any medical shock."
Further more it has never been proven exactly what happens when this occurs, many studies have been done on it. Stunned and dead are not the same thing. There have been many instances where the deer has been shocked, fell to the ground and gotten back up minute later and ran away.
The paper goes on to say this:
"Before I become too dogmatic and overstate the situation, let me concede that there may be some merit to the idea that hydrodynamic (not hydrostatic) impulse created by bullets which have a high kinetic energy and generally exhibit violent cavitation, can cause some secondary effects due to pressure on the nervous system or heart. It is possible to kill manually by nerve "strangulation". In this case actual damage to the central nervous system is not caused, but the signals governing the heart or diaphragm are shut off, resulting in instantaneous unconsciousness or even death. Certain rare sports fatalities have been definitely attributed to a swift blow which interrupts the cardiac rhythm. Acoustic pressure on the spine can also cause temporary paralysis. These phenomena may account for the rapid effectiveness of some high-velocity hollow-point pistol bullets, especially in cases in which the victim is not mortally wounded and recovers consciousness within a few minutes. Several special handgun loads have been designed with no regard whatsoever to penetration (e.g., the THV bullet) in order to achieve this result. Unfortunately, this is an unreliable mechanism of incapacitation, generally obtained at the expense of effective penetration. No bullet yet designed will produce this effect even 10% of the time. Many of the bullets designed to utilize this effect can be defeated by common barriers, such as glass, sheetrock, and even clothing. Doing this deliberately by hand, even with a profound understanding of the mechanism and vital points, is extremely uncertain; using the passage of a pressure wave from a bullet to accomplish this falls into the freak event category. Such is never an acceptable mechanism for the hunter."
An animal is not dead until enough brain damage has occurred for it to not function anymore. And this is caused by starvation of blood/oxygen and takes time.
Paul
05-20-2008, 02:34 PM
#36
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: To stop a deer in its tracks
Why can't you believe it? It's a medical fact. When you shoot a deer, or person for that matter and it drops to the ground and twitches or jerks it doesn't mean it's dead. It means you stunned it and it is mortally wounded and will perish before it recovers. This is exactly why people have shot deer, had them fall to the ground, then get up and run away minutes later. They stunned the deer but didn't mortally wound it. Clinically dead is when brain function ceases to exist, and then you can still be revived with modern technology.
Can you drop a deer on the spot and incapacitate it, sure you can, and it's very effective if done right. However it's not technically dead yet. I have killed enough animals close up to know they don't die instantaneously. It's a nice fairly tale to believe in, but it is not very realistic. The truth is death is never easy and rarely painless and it always sucks.
And no, I don't believe a bullet creates enough of a shock wave to make the blood flow backwards in the circulatory system.
The response a deer has is no different than hitting a person in the neck with a bat or a baton then cutting the jugular or puncturing a lung while they are stunned and helpless. It wasn't the shock that killed them, it was the trauma that ceased to carry blood or oxygen to the brain.
Paul
Can you drop a deer on the spot and incapacitate it, sure you can, and it's very effective if done right. However it's not technically dead yet. I have killed enough animals close up to know they don't die instantaneously. It's a nice fairly tale to believe in, but it is not very realistic. The truth is death is never easy and rarely painless and it always sucks.
And no, I don't believe a bullet creates enough of a shock wave to make the blood flow backwards in the circulatory system.
The response a deer has is no different than hitting a person in the neck with a bat or a baton then cutting the jugular or puncturing a lung while they are stunned and helpless. It wasn't the shock that killed them, it was the trauma that ceased to carry blood or oxygen to the brain.
Paul
05-21-2008, 03:02 PM
#37
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: To stop a deer in its tracks
I'm not telling you that you can't drop them Ridge, just that they are not clinically dead. I have actually never had a deer do it, they all run a ways when I shoot them, but I aim for the lungs and can't use a high powered rifle. I have however killed many animals living on a farm, some at point blank range. Short of putting something in the brain cavity they don't die instantaneously. Even a head shot doesn't put them out in a blink of an eye. Like I said before, death is never pretty or pleasant. All I'm saying is on the ground doesn't always equal dead, when your close enough to look them in the eyes you can see something is still going on in there.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. It's not going to ruin my day or my opinion of you if you don't see things the same way I do. Your just looking at it from a practical view and I'm looking at it from a scientific view is all. For all intense purposes the deer is dead when it drops, especially if you have to walk 7 to 8 hundred yards to retrieve it
. But scientifically it takes a bit more time for the deer to actually expire, there is no way around it. That is why you have instances of people shooting a deer then it gets up and runs away minutes later, I have actually seen that happen before. Deer are built basically like we are, we share the same basic anatomy. Humans often can be dead for minutes and either come back or be brought back, sometimes after 10 or 20 minutes! Normally there is some brain damage though after that amount of time.
Paul
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. It's not going to ruin my day or my opinion of you if you don't see things the same way I do. Your just looking at it from a practical view and I'm looking at it from a scientific view is all. For all intense purposes the deer is dead when it drops, especially if you have to walk 7 to 8 hundred yards to retrieve it
. But scientifically it takes a bit more time for the deer to actually expire, there is no way around it. That is why you have instances of people shooting a deer then it gets up and runs away minutes later, I have actually seen that happen before. Deer are built basically like we are, we share the same basic anatomy. Humans often can be dead for minutes and either come back or be brought back, sometimes after 10 or 20 minutes! Normally there is some brain damage though after that amount of time.Paul
05-26-2008, 12:27 PM
#38
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Monroe, Louisiana
Posts: 109
RE: To stop a deer in its tracks
ORIGINAL: Remnard
4" below the back line, dead even with the front legs. When struck there, you will break both shoulders and the spine and neck all come together there. Every Deer I have shot this way has dropped as if some reached in from behind and pulled every bone out of its body! They literally drop right there.
4" below the back line, dead even with the front legs. When struck there, you will break both shoulders and the spine and neck all come together there. Every Deer I have shot this way has dropped as if some reached in from behind and pulled every bone out of its body! They literally drop right there.
05-26-2008, 01:15 PM
#39
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chatham, Ohio
Posts: 8,834
RE: To stop a deer in its tracks
I once shot a doe and it dropped to the ground and died instantly. I promise you it did, we walked up to it (we were only 20 yards away), and the three of us stood around and talked for 20 minutes or so and it was definitely dead. My shot hit one lung and the heart.
