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-   -   Hunt with silencer/suppressor (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/whitetail-deer-hunting/230970-hunt-silencer-suppressor.html)

Paul L Mohr 02-08-2008 07:20 AM

RE: Hunt with silencer/suppressor
 
Years ago they were perfectly legal, and were used for target shooting and varmint hunting. Obviously to control the noise. Then the wrong people started using them for the wrong reasons (Mob, crime) and they ended up being outlawed pretty much. At least that is how it was explained to me.

And they are not illegal except in a few states, you just have to get a permit to use them. And in most states they are not legal to hunt big with. You can own them, the hunting regs just don't allow them is all. Same thing with using laser sights, they are not illegal you just can't hunt with them in most states is all.

I am going to admit something I shouldn't on a public forum but since there is no way to prove it anymore I don't feel too worried about it. I have messed with them, done a lot of research on them and even owned and made a few illegally. You can make a very effective one for pretty cheap if you don't care what it looks like or if you don't want it to last a long time. Some of the more expensive ones work better and last a lot longer though. And some that are made for specific applications actually reduce the velocity on their own so you don't need to switch to subsonic ammo.

Depending on how well made it is and how well it is fitted to your gun it could degrade accuracy as well. I don't believe for what you are looking at that will be an issue though unless the install is very poor.

I would love to use one for varmint hunting, but I don't think I would bother with it for deer hunting. Just me though. Ear protectors work just fine for me and I can get the foam ones at work for free.

And while they won't make a high powered cartridge completely quiet they will quiet it down quite a bit. Plus help with muzzle jump and flash. And like I said before while they still make noise it is very non directional.

My only concern with using one on a single shot pistol would be the weight and over all balance will be all messed up. It will have to be a fairly large one to be effective on that type of weapon. I assume you are using a scope anyway, because that will be a must as well. You may even have to mount it higher, I doubt it though.

If you can find some forums with more members from over seas, like remington girl said they use them quite a bit over there. I think rimfire central has a few members that use them as well.

Maybe some sniper forums wouldn't be a bad idea either.

If you get one let us know. And pics are a must;).

Paul

GRIZZLYMAN 02-08-2008 11:48 AM

RE: Hunt with silencer/suppressor
 
I have shot an M-16 with one of the old SIONICS (Mitch Werbell) suppressors. While it did away with muzzle blast, you could still hear the crack of the bullet going over 1300 fps. Doing away with muzzle blast/flash, and minimizing recoil (not an issue w/ M-16) are the only two advantages that I can see to using one on a high powered rifle.

remington_girl 02-08-2008 04:01 PM

RE: Hunt with silencer/suppressor
 

ORIGINAL: Paul L Mohr

Years ago they were perfectly legal, and were used for target shooting and varmint hunting. Obviously to control the noise. Then the wrong people started using them for the wrong reasons (Mob, crime) and they ended up being outlawed pretty much. At least that is how it was explained to me.

And they are not illegal except in a few states, you just have to get a permit to use them. And in most states they are not legal to hunt big with. You can own them, the hunting regs just don't allow them is all. Same thing with using laser sights, they are not illegal you just can't hunt with them in most states is all.

I am going to admit something I shouldn't on a public forum but since there is no way to prove it anymore I don't feel too worried about it. I have messed with them, done a lot of research on them and even owned and made a few illegally. You can make a very effective one for pretty cheap if you don't care what it looks like or if you don't want it to last a long time. Some of the more expensive ones work better and last a lot longer though. And some that are made for specific applications actually reduce the velocity on their own so you don't need to switch to subsonic ammo.

Depending on how well made it is and how well it is fitted to your gun it could degrade accuracy as well. I don't believe for what you are looking at that will be an issue though unless the install is very poor.

I would love to use one for varmint hunting, but I don't think I would bother with it for deer hunting. Just me though. Ear protectors work just fine for me and I can get the foam ones at work for free.

And while they won't make a high powered cartridge completely quiet they will quiet it down quite a bit. Plus help with muzzle jump and flash. And like I said before while they still make noise it is very non directional.

My only concern with using one on a single shot pistol would be the weight and over all balance will be all messed up. It will have to be a fairly large one to be effective on that type of weapon. I assume you are using a scope anyway, because that will be a must as well. You may even have to mount it higher, I doubt it though.

If you can find some forums with more members from over seas, like remington girl said they use them quite a bit over there. I think rimfire central has a few members that use them as well.

Maybe some sniper forums wouldn't be a bad idea either.

If you get one let us know. And pics are a must;).

Paul
Its just funny because in the US you can own practically any type of gun which can do alot of damage and your not allowed a silencer in most stateslol.

And all over Scotland its legal I couldn't bare to hunt without one, i want to keep my hearing intact for a very long time.

Jack Ryan 02-11-2008 10:37 PM

RE: Hunt with silencer/suppressor
 

ORIGINAL: johnshiredman

I thought there would be one or two pessimist to chime in and ask why, but I was hoping for more factual replies. But perhaps I am wrong, maybe you just are curious because it is not the norm and people always have a tendency to question anything out of the norm.

For those who ask why? Here is a list of reasons that all add up to make the cost worth it to me…if the reasons indeed are true and suppressors are legal to hunt with.
1) No, a silencer does not take away 100% of the sound, but it does reduce the sound. A lot of individuals do not take the necessary precautions (i.e. earplugs/muffs) to protect their ears while hunting. A suppressor, which reduces the sound, may help prevent hearing loss (of course depending upon the gun, caliber and ammo choice). How much is your ability to hear, worth to you? Can you really put a price on it??? I own a $100 pair of electronic ear muffs to hunt with that don’t work very well because you get what you pay for. Now if I spent $300 to $400 I would have something better, but for that price why not just suppress the gun? (if the noise is reduced to a safe level)
2) People pay to put muzzle breaks on their weapons to tame recoil, which in many cases aids in better accuracy. I am no expert, but a suppressor acts in much the same way so accuracy can be a benefit; while most muzzle breaks increase sound.
3) I hunt with pistols, so the end of the barrel is closer to my ears and some would argue thus the potential for hearing loss is greater.
4) Simply practicing with the gun would be more enjoyable with a suppressor if there is less noise and increased accuracy (except of course for those of you who are shooting big guns just for the feel and sound), however, many guns will have a different point of impact when the silencer/suppressor is removed, and so it could be argued that hunting with the gun set up in the exact manor it is practiced with is crucial to success.
5) When I introduce my children to shooting, less recoil and less noise will provide a more enjoyable experience (maybe I could even get my wife to hunt with me!!!), of course I will start them practicing with a .22, but even if they cannot hunt with the suppressor, practice will be more enjoyable. (Yes, this statement does contradict with number 4, but I feel both statements are valid benefits of suppressors.
6) I shoot and handload for a 7mm-08 Encore pistol (among others). When my children are old enough to take hunters safety and hunt whitetails (12 in WI), I plan on starting them with an Encore rifle (compact barrel and stock) with reduced handloads. The brand of suppressor I am looking at screws on and off from attachments that remain on the barrel of each gun. So with the initial investment in one suppressor I would be able to utilize it on various guns.

Additional thought: I have heard that European countries utilize the use of suppressors simply to reduce noise pollution (perhaps due to smaller countries having smaller parcels of land to hunt on which are closer to populated areas).

Do I know for fact that I will gain the advantages of the above reasons? No, because I don’t have experience with the use of silencers/suppressors, but that is why I was inquiring. I was looking for more information to see what others who have and use silencers/suppressors would say, so that I could make a better informed decision as to whether I would benefit from the investment. Some people don’t hesitate to pay as much (or more) for a scope, than they did for their gun as an enhancement for their eyes and to increase potential accuracy. Is it really that different to pay as much for a piece of equipment that will help protect your ears and potentially increase accuracy?

I plan on passing my guns down to my son and daughter when I reach my final days; if it does not cost my son or daughter additional money to inherit, then look at it as a long term investment that pays off for anyone shooting with it.

Please note: My intentions in this post are not to argue for the use of silencers/suppressors, but merely to gather more information. I think it was valid for the previous posters to question why I was searching for information, but if after reading this post you have a pessimistic view and feel the need to reply or simply want to chime in that you don’t see the point, please consider starting a different thread, it is a free country and you can write what you want; but my hope is that this thread will provide factual information. That’s not to say that I don’t want to hear negative feedback, if you do have a factual experience with the use of suppressors in a caliber similar to 7mm-08, .260, .308, etc… please let me know.
Good plan. You are 100% correct in your every assumption.

I suggest you get out your check book and start writing at the earliest opportunity. When you quit writing checks come back and let us know how wrong every one on this thread is and how wonderfully it all worked out for you.

I can't wait to hear it.

HEAD0001 02-12-2008 04:37 AM

RE: Hunt with silencer/suppressor
 
IMO you can associate all the negativity to HollyWood.

The $200 fee is an "application fee", collected by the Federal government for your permit.

Once you get your permit just take it to a retailer and order your suppressor.

Suppressor's are legal in WV to hunt with. Big game, and Varmints.

They are a lot of fun in the deer woods. You can hunt other game while deer hunting at the same time. they are also a hoot for shooting ground hog's wih.

The key to a good deer load is bullet size. To get the full benefit from a suppressor you must go sub sonic. If you go sub sonic the noise reduction is drastic. The problem is you have a sub sonic projectile.

The key is to get as large of a projectile as you can, and to get a bullet that will expand at sub sonic velocities. That is the real catch.

The 300 Whisper is a good cartridge to shoot sub sonic, the problem is you can not get a 200-220 grain 30 caliber bullet to expand at 1100 fps. A great cartridge to work with is a 45 Long Colt. Cast a lead 300 grain bullet, and you are good to 100 yards with a very quiet rig that will expand on deer.

A lot of people knock other people's ideas. Why??? I do not know. Do not pay any attention to them. It is your cash. If you want a suppressor, then get one. Just ignore the negatives, and accentuate the positives.

I am putting together an Encore barrel right now to be suppressed for ground hog hunting. I hunt a lot of barn yards, and around a lot of farm houses. A suppressed, sub sonic load will be a real asset around the farmer's, and live stock. Especially horses. I have not made a final decision yet on the cartridge. It will probably be either a 223 Remington, or a 308 Winchester. I also want to be able to use it out to 300 yards. I will have two loads for the rifle. I want to be able to shoot cast bullets, but normally you can not mix cast and jacketed out of the same barrel. But I am going to give it a try.

A lot of people do not realize this, but it is not the recoil that scares children. It is the noise that scares them. Just watch the kid's who are not holding the gun. You will notice they flinch from the noise when their friend is shooting the gun. Take away the noise and kid's can handle a little recoil. I have seen it first hand. Tom.

7mm08 02-13-2008 11:52 PM

RE: Hunt with silencer/suppressor
 

ORIGINAL: A11en

During the paperwork process described earlier, you also sign a waiver giving law enforcement agencies the ability to search your person/ property without a warrant.
This is 100% false. The only paperwork you sign is an ATF Form 4, an ATF Form 5330.20, standard fingerprint cards, and once all of the paperwork is approved by the ATF you fill out a standard Form 4473(as you would for a pistol/rifle) before taking the suppressors home. On none of the forms do you EVER sign over any kind of permission for ANYONE to randomly search your home without reason/warrant. You never give up any of your rights.

Also, there are no "permits," or "licenses." You pay a transfer tax. It will varry from dealer to dealer, but at mine it went like the following(my dealer does a lot of the work for the buyer as to cut out the time and BS):

1. Find Class III dealer.
2. Pick suppressor you want.
3. Pay for it.
4. Dealer fills out Form 4 & 5330.20 with your info, and suppressor's info(serial #, manufacturer, caliber, size, etc.)
5. Fill out fingerprint card with info, sign, and take prints
6. Take two passport sized photos
7. Sign form 4 & 5330.20
8. Pay dealer $200 for the transfer tax(they make out a check in your name), or write a check yourself
9. Have CLEO(Chief Law Enforcement Officer) sign off your Form 4
10. Submit to ATF and wait for approval(if you can buy a handgun, and your CLEO signed off... you'll get approved)
11. Wait for ATF to send approved Form 4 back to dealer with the $200Tax Stampaffixed, and pick up your new toy after you've filled out the standard 4473 form.
12. Enjoy



Buying/using suppressors is a very easy process. The way I listed it makes it look long and painful, but it's VERY simple. THe hardest part is waiting for itto get approved. I'm 22, and I've already had 2 suppressor's approved, and a SBR.Not much harder than purchasing a handgun, or rifle. A few more "hoops" to jump through, but at the end of the day when you're shooting suppressed it's more than worth it. Right now I only have suppressed .22's, and .223/5.56. The 5.56 is still pretty loud(about like your average unsuppressed .22lr rifle) due to the sonic crack, but the suppressed .22lr's are extremely quiet. Scary quiet especially on a bolt action .22.

If you have any specific questions please feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] I'd be more than happy to talk to you about anything/everything concerning suppressors. Advantages, disadvantages(besides their addictiveness, there are NONE), costs, dealers, brands, companies that make/thread barrels, how to "pass them down to your children," paperwork processes, etc. I can also try and find you some folks local to you to let you demo their suppressors - we love letting people new to them try them out!

Here's two pics of my SBR AR-15 w/Tac-16 suppressor:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/JoshSC/025-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v128/JoshSC/024-3.jpg

IowaBoy01 02-14-2008 03:34 AM

RE: Hunt with silencer/suppressor
 

ORIGINAL: remington_girl

We use silencers on all of our rifles and its perfectly legal in Scotland. I was shocked that you cant own one in the US why? I dont wanna go deaf.
I think all it has to do is that the lawmakers have seen too many gangster\hitman movies where the guys carrys around cases full of silenced pistols or something. It has no logic to it.

matyoka 11-12-2008 04:53 PM

RE: Hunt with silencer/suppressor
 

ORIGINAL: HEAD0001

IMO you can associate all the negativity to HollyWood.

The $200 fee is an "application fee", collected by the Federal government for your permit.

Once you get your permit just take it to a retailer and order your suppressor.

Hello there,

My first posting as I am a new Hunter but have had silencers for a while now. The postingquoted above, and I am not trying to be a smart ass, is very much indeed erroneous and misleading. The $200 fee is nothing else but the TRANSFER TAX fee collected by the ATF's NFA bureau. It has been $200 since 1934 and was primarily instituted to make it harder for the average Joe to own a suppressor. In 1934 $200 was equivalent to 5 month's salary and it has not changed since (it's predicted by many that under Obama's regime it will go to $2500).
Thanks to Hollywood, the device that Hiram Maxim invented and commercialized in 1902, became an image of the modern Mobsters, Yacuza and Ex-KGB operatives. In real life, the sound doesn't evencome close to that portrayed in modern James Bond movies... unless you shoot a Walter P22 or an integrally silenced rifle with Subsonic rounds.
Many people on this forum know a lot about silencers, however obtaining one is not as hard as it looks. I legally own 3 silencers, a .22, a .45 and a .223 for my M4; and I have not been photographer, fingerprinted orexposed to the sarcasmof aChief Law Enforcement figure. Anyone(without a criminal record)can own a silencer as a Grantor/Trustee of it's own Revocable Living Trust or a Corporation. Both are entities, however they cannot be photographednor fingerprinted.
The procurement/purchase of a silencer is simple:
1.make sure your state is listed under silencer ownership(NJ,NY,CA... NOT)
2.find a Class 3 firearms dealer
3.chose the silencer you want(the smaller the caliber the better suppression and price. Eg. .22 silencer costs $300-450, .45 is about $750)
4.have a notarized Revocable Living Trust set up with you as Trustee
5.dealer will fillout2 ATF form 4s, attach a $200 check made out to NFA and mail it
6.wait for 1-2 months for approval (NFA will affix a nice $200green stamp on your original ATFform 4)
7.dealer will call you to pick up the item :)

Hunting with silencers is a common practice among owners, however on a personal note, I would not do it because:
1.I consider itcheating
2.other hunters might be near you and will not hear you and possibly shoot your direction
3.if the game warden catches you with a silencer he will notify the Police, SWAT, Border Patrol, CIA, NSA and god knows who else because they(wardens) have no clue that it is LEGAL TO POSSESS!!!!! By the way many Law Enforcement officers have no clue that is legal to own a silencer...

With that said, I hope I didn't offend anyone, and by the way there are hundreds of videos on youtube featuring weapons shot with silencers. It's fun to watch them, and hey,they might even make you get one :)

matyoka 11-12-2008 05:19 PM

RE: Hunt with silencer/suppressor
 
By the way 7mm08 (Joshua) described the process of ownership perfectly (via CLEO, fingerprints, mugshots).The suppressor I use on my .223/5.6 Noveske Light Recce is an AAC M4-2000 with 130 decibel end noise. A bit quieterthan the TAC-16 as I tried both before the purchase. On a final note, go to a Class 3 dealer that has silencers in stock and ask for a testdrive. Don't buyanything based on internet footage or recommendations... you will be dissapointed. Try it out FIRST !!!!

instinct 11-13-2008 11:26 AM

RE: Hunt with silencer/suppressor
 
silencers are illegal to own in wisconsin but flash suppressors can be used for hunting these are two totally different items suppressor yes silencer illegal


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