anyone cared enough to share this with you? 2
06-25-2007, 01:28 PM
#1
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,137
anyone cared enough to share this with you? 2
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/15/23544/992[/align][/align]Life is a gift to all of us. And yet, when one is an atheist, they are sometimes bothered by perhaps well meaning but nevertheless annoying theists, who accuse them of not caring about the life of anyone or anything. It's an odd reaction, because for the atheist, this life is it. In our view, we humans get a few decades on average, a tiny arc of consciousness across the infinite ocean of space-time, a blink of the cosmic eye, in which the universe can be uniquely aware of itself through each of us. And accepting that there is likely nothing afterward, nothing but the comforting non-existence that preceded conception, makes this time far more precious to the atheist, than many theists seem willing to contemplate.
[/align][*]DarkSyde's diary :: ::[*][/ul]
Once again, a fair warning to all, this might be offensive as hell to some. Just try and understand that even though I think religion may be crazy or irrational, that doesn't mean I universally dislike religious people or that I think everything they do outside of religion is worthless. Point of Fact: This two-part series came about last evening during a friendly e-mail exchange with a Kossack friend who is definitely a believer and s/he happens to be someone whose integrity, character, and compassion, I greatly admire.
Now a foreword and a suggested code of conduct since the post got so distended: Take some time to decide if something is really worth your time to respond to, there will be trolls on both sides looking to agitate you anyway they can.
Your religion may be inspiring to you. It may have stories that are inspiring to me. It may have mnemonic value; critically important value at that. It may be rich in tradition and culture, it may encapsulate important events in human history. It may offer hope to people who have no hope left. It may serve as a useful insight into human nature. Humans may indeed have a preexisting facility to acquire belief systems similar to the one for language. It may provide a valuable ethical and behavioral framework. It may spread like a virus and mutate like bird flu. I don't necessarily think you are weak minded for buying it, I think enculturation and peer pressure is some powerful gumbo. But this diary isn't about any of that.
This is about why I am an atheist, not why you should be one. And by atheist I mean that I strongly suspect that the core, underlying, supernatural claims of religion are nonsense. If you want me to not be an atheist and share your particular flavor of supernatural belief, you need to be able to perform the magic or produce the supernatural being you claim exists and subject that creature to a battery of tests under controlled conditions.
That's it folks. That's the criteria if you want me to believe that your underlying supernatural being or beings are for real. Spare me/us word games, meaning try and avoid twisting words into unrecognizable states of vague meaningless mush. EG: The assumption that Cap'n Crunch exists and the assumption that dogs exist are not on the same rung in the ladder of 'faith'. One requires extraordinary faith and the mind of a child or a 'tard, the other only requires a trip to my backyard. Same for redefining atheism as a religion. You can call atheism anything you want, but you may just confuse people if you do so. Because if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby and baldness is a hair color.
And please, try and limit any long-winded philosophical explanations of why your particular deity or supernatural claim is untestable or perfectly resembles one that does not exist; if it cannot be tested and happens to perfectly imitate one that does not exist, skeptics are not going to buy it. Same for excuses that the magic doesn't work when a skeptic is present with a camcorder. It doesn't matter, even if it's written in a book that it worked once upon a time. Same for demanding I prove your magic wizard/dragon/powers/sea monster/pantheon doesn't exist or 'you win'. This is for your own good: You don't win anything outside of exposing yourself as logically clueless.
Speaking of which here's an exhaustive list of Logical Fallacies many of which were known to even the ancients and most of which are required topics for a degree in philosophy. If you regale us in comments with your philosophical prowess or try to snow anyone in that regard, and go onto commit even one of them, you will probably be laughed at and ridiculed by people who have real training in philosophy or formal debate.
Why am I an Atheist?
In my Santa Claus analogy I mentioned near the end to imagine why it is you don't literally believe in Santa and his North Pole factory. I bet for most of you, it's not because you hate Santa, I mean who would? It's probably not because you hate Christmas or despise giving or receiving gifts. I doubt it's because you detest having days off or eating kickass food with your family and friends. You probably can't prove there is no Santa and even if you try, I assure you from long experience in dealing with creationists* I can offer a counter argument.
No, none of that is the reason: Your disbelief in a literal Santa Claus, flying reindeer, nocturnal visits, toy factories, elves, etc., likely centers on three concrete objections:
[ol]"It" makes no sense
There is no evidence for "it"
We're adults who can get by fine at Christmas time and enjoy ourselves without "it" having to be true
[/ol]Evidence by far is the key. Something might not make sense, like Quantum Mechanics, but we accept it because of the evidence. OTOH something might make sense, like the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe, but we don't accept it as valid, yet, because we have no evidence. The reason for this [/align]
[/align][*]DarkSyde's diary :: ::[*][/ul]
Once again, a fair warning to all, this might be offensive as hell to some. Just try and understand that even though I think religion may be crazy or irrational, that doesn't mean I universally dislike religious people or that I think everything they do outside of religion is worthless. Point of Fact: This two-part series came about last evening during a friendly e-mail exchange with a Kossack friend who is definitely a believer and s/he happens to be someone whose integrity, character, and compassion, I greatly admire.
Now a foreword and a suggested code of conduct since the post got so distended: Take some time to decide if something is really worth your time to respond to, there will be trolls on both sides looking to agitate you anyway they can.
Your religion may be inspiring to you. It may have stories that are inspiring to me. It may have mnemonic value; critically important value at that. It may be rich in tradition and culture, it may encapsulate important events in human history. It may offer hope to people who have no hope left. It may serve as a useful insight into human nature. Humans may indeed have a preexisting facility to acquire belief systems similar to the one for language. It may provide a valuable ethical and behavioral framework. It may spread like a virus and mutate like bird flu. I don't necessarily think you are weak minded for buying it, I think enculturation and peer pressure is some powerful gumbo. But this diary isn't about any of that.
This is about why I am an atheist, not why you should be one. And by atheist I mean that I strongly suspect that the core, underlying, supernatural claims of religion are nonsense. If you want me to not be an atheist and share your particular flavor of supernatural belief, you need to be able to perform the magic or produce the supernatural being you claim exists and subject that creature to a battery of tests under controlled conditions.
That's it folks. That's the criteria if you want me to believe that your underlying supernatural being or beings are for real. Spare me/us word games, meaning try and avoid twisting words into unrecognizable states of vague meaningless mush. EG: The assumption that Cap'n Crunch exists and the assumption that dogs exist are not on the same rung in the ladder of 'faith'. One requires extraordinary faith and the mind of a child or a 'tard, the other only requires a trip to my backyard. Same for redefining atheism as a religion. You can call atheism anything you want, but you may just confuse people if you do so. Because if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby and baldness is a hair color.
And please, try and limit any long-winded philosophical explanations of why your particular deity or supernatural claim is untestable or perfectly resembles one that does not exist; if it cannot be tested and happens to perfectly imitate one that does not exist, skeptics are not going to buy it. Same for excuses that the magic doesn't work when a skeptic is present with a camcorder. It doesn't matter, even if it's written in a book that it worked once upon a time. Same for demanding I prove your magic wizard/dragon/powers/sea monster/pantheon doesn't exist or 'you win'. This is for your own good: You don't win anything outside of exposing yourself as logically clueless.
Speaking of which here's an exhaustive list of Logical Fallacies many of which were known to even the ancients and most of which are required topics for a degree in philosophy. If you regale us in comments with your philosophical prowess or try to snow anyone in that regard, and go onto commit even one of them, you will probably be laughed at and ridiculed by people who have real training in philosophy or formal debate.
Why am I an Atheist?
In my Santa Claus analogy I mentioned near the end to imagine why it is you don't literally believe in Santa and his North Pole factory. I bet for most of you, it's not because you hate Santa, I mean who would? It's probably not because you hate Christmas or despise giving or receiving gifts. I doubt it's because you detest having days off or eating kickass food with your family and friends. You probably can't prove there is no Santa and even if you try, I assure you from long experience in dealing with creationists* I can offer a counter argument.
No, none of that is the reason: Your disbelief in a literal Santa Claus, flying reindeer, nocturnal visits, toy factories, elves, etc., likely centers on three concrete objections:
[ol]"It" makes no sense
There is no evidence for "it"
We're adults who can get by fine at Christmas time and enjoy ourselves without "it" having to be true
[/ol]Evidence by far is the key. Something might not make sense, like Quantum Mechanics, but we accept it because of the evidence. OTOH something might make sense, like the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe, but we don't accept it as valid, yet, because we have no evidence. The reason for this [/align]
06-25-2007, 02:25 PM
#4
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Findlay, Ohio
Posts: 3,286
RE: anyone cared enough to share this with you? 2
Try not to be long winded but I have seen proof of "it" and Felt and heard "it"
I seen a blind man healed!!
When I was about nineteen my dad was in a bad accident. He works on High pressures boilers and was mixing some chemicals when the guy he was working with started to fill the mixing drum with hot water instead of cold. When my dad approached the container to put in the chemicals as soon as he dumped it there was a violent explosion of a acid bath on my dad. He had bad acid burns on the left side of his face and his left eye was damaged. Buy the time he was rushed to the hospital he was in intense pain and could not see at all. His right eye somehow was OK and he regained sight quickly in the emergency room. His left eye was damaged badly. Cant remember the terms but his cornea, lens, and retina and all the other stuff on the front and inside his eye was gone! They put a patch on him and cleaned out this "hole" in his eye and said he would have to go to a specialist and they would determine if his eye would heal enough to leave it in or be removed, vision was not possible at this point since he had a visible hole in his eye and his internal eye was gone! This happened on a Wednesday. When we left the ER it was 7:00PM, dad said "hurry I don't like be late for church" I thought he was joking but he was not. He walked right in as the pastor was making announcements to the church about upcoming events and walked right up to the podium and talked to the pastor. The pastor then made an announcement to the congregation and called on all believers to come to the front of the church for a special time or prayer. They anointed my father and laid hands on him, typical for us Pentecostal Assembly of God people and we all prayed and had a great service. The next day my dad went to a specialist and he removed my dads bandage and my dad could see light! The specialist said he must have gotten the wrong pics of my dads eye from the day before because the pics show a eye with missing parts and my dad's eye was fully intact! But my dad explained to him what had taken place and he to was a believer and him and my dad both knew to who the glory was due! My dad before the accident almost had the classic "coke" bottle glasses. With in two weeks he could see and in one month he had 20/20 vision out of the damaged eye!
That is my "IT" that I seen and experienced first hand, know one can ever deny what happened to my dad and the miracle Christ laid on him that night!
Also when one stops just warming up the seats at church and is baptized in the holly spirit and God touches them and they hear the voice of God one knows with out a doubt that Christ is alive and in there hearts!
I do not direct this at you and hope this is not the case but God is our father in heaven. This is a important part to understandwhen trying to understand most, and I say most, hopefully not you. Most atheist have never had relationships with therefather and this has beenfound out in a many studies done by different leading churchgroups when trying to understand atheist. Most people that can not have a relation ship with there mortal parents often have a harder time trying to have a relationship with the FatherGod. Since they can not believe in there own father they can not fathom in believing inthe heavenly father. That statement may upset some people but it isthe truth. Most non believers come from split family broken homes.
Sorry so long but that is my "IT"
I seen a blind man healed!!
When I was about nineteen my dad was in a bad accident. He works on High pressures boilers and was mixing some chemicals when the guy he was working with started to fill the mixing drum with hot water instead of cold. When my dad approached the container to put in the chemicals as soon as he dumped it there was a violent explosion of a acid bath on my dad. He had bad acid burns on the left side of his face and his left eye was damaged. Buy the time he was rushed to the hospital he was in intense pain and could not see at all. His right eye somehow was OK and he regained sight quickly in the emergency room. His left eye was damaged badly. Cant remember the terms but his cornea, lens, and retina and all the other stuff on the front and inside his eye was gone! They put a patch on him and cleaned out this "hole" in his eye and said he would have to go to a specialist and they would determine if his eye would heal enough to leave it in or be removed, vision was not possible at this point since he had a visible hole in his eye and his internal eye was gone! This happened on a Wednesday. When we left the ER it was 7:00PM, dad said "hurry I don't like be late for church" I thought he was joking but he was not. He walked right in as the pastor was making announcements to the church about upcoming events and walked right up to the podium and talked to the pastor. The pastor then made an announcement to the congregation and called on all believers to come to the front of the church for a special time or prayer. They anointed my father and laid hands on him, typical for us Pentecostal Assembly of God people and we all prayed and had a great service. The next day my dad went to a specialist and he removed my dads bandage and my dad could see light! The specialist said he must have gotten the wrong pics of my dads eye from the day before because the pics show a eye with missing parts and my dad's eye was fully intact! But my dad explained to him what had taken place and he to was a believer and him and my dad both knew to who the glory was due! My dad before the accident almost had the classic "coke" bottle glasses. With in two weeks he could see and in one month he had 20/20 vision out of the damaged eye!
That is my "IT" that I seen and experienced first hand, know one can ever deny what happened to my dad and the miracle Christ laid on him that night!
Also when one stops just warming up the seats at church and is baptized in the holly spirit and God touches them and they hear the voice of God one knows with out a doubt that Christ is alive and in there hearts!
I do not direct this at you and hope this is not the case but God is our father in heaven. This is a important part to understandwhen trying to understand most, and I say most, hopefully not you. Most atheist have never had relationships with therefather and this has beenfound out in a many studies done by different leading churchgroups when trying to understand atheist. Most people that can not have a relation ship with there mortal parents often have a harder time trying to have a relationship with the FatherGod. Since they can not believe in there own father they can not fathom in believing inthe heavenly father. That statement may upset some people but it isthe truth. Most non believers come from split family broken homes.
Sorry so long but that is my "IT"
06-25-2007, 02:47 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Huntin' In Colorado
Posts: 2,910
RE: anyone cared enough to share this with you? 2
Great story hotburn!!! It gave me goose bumps reading it. I'm not going to tell stories but I too have seen miracles within my own family that could be nothing less than the hand of God himself! I'm sure glad these post were started, I haven't been as close to God as I should have been lately, and thanks to an atheist words I just had a great talk with God. God does work in mysterious ways! Thanks Charlie P !!!!!!
06-26-2007, 08:13 AM
#8
Join Date: May 2005
Location: georgia
Posts: 3,297
RE: anyone cared enough to share this with you? 2
A quick qusetion CP. I would like to clarify first that I don't 'dislike ' atheists or anyone else because of their beliefs or lack thereof! I certainly don't dislike you and hope that you can tell that frommy various responses to you over time.There is an illogical aspect of this post that you copy and posted. It reminds me of a conversation with an older gent a few years back. He went into a long tirade as to what and why he thought of 'religion',( btw, religion and a relationship with God have no commonalities at all)and the whole concept of God. I listened politely and respectfully, and then asked him a very simple question. If, as he said, there is nothing to this, and this life is all there is, then why has he spent so much time developing a defense against a 'fairy tale'? I don't get into arguments or discussions with people who are pedalling things that are so clearly invalid. I do have a tendency, when I am on the wrong end of an argument and not willing to admit it, to come up with a multitude of reasons as to why I don't need to concur, and can eventually even convince myself as to the validity of my argument that I started out as knowing deep down, that I was wrong. This takes some major league maneuvering and thought. It is called rationalization, and all of us are guilty of it, to some degree. To inject into this argument from your source that theists don't use their minds is an absurdlyoverly generalized and false statement. We all use our minds. Some to put the pieces together and others to scramble them so as to hide what the pieces eventually come out to represent.There is a reality that has to be faced. We are here. There is order, and a systematized purpose to life, and the premise that it all happened by accident, randomly and without any significance is much more illogical, given the complexity and beauty to all that there is in life, than to assign life's origin to an absolute and creative personality that placed us here with significance , purpose, and everything we need to be able to understand and recognize His involvement.
