No Blood No Deer?
12-12-2006, 03:19 PM
#61
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,394
RE: No Blood No Deer?
Ol eagle eyes,
I’m going to respond to your post since I think your last paragraph was directed towards me, and even more so, my claims to have never have missed a deer with a firearm.
If you go look at my posts it won’t take long for you to see that I don’t make huge claims of success, tell tall tales or proclaim to be a marksman. My statement is in fact true, but if you were to dig deeper you’d find that it isn’t such a rare feat, and it isn’t by mistake. Here is my background and the extent of my experience;
My father is BIG on education. In fact I’d say he is obsessed with it. He has four degrees, retired from the Secret Service and still attends college. He holds two real estate licenses and has never sold a piece of property that didn’t belong to him. If you were to ask why, he would say because he was interested in it.
Well, he was also very interested in hunting and shooting. So were his two boys, and now, we know how to shoot. And when I say that, I’m not suggesting that I can do anything special. But before you went shooting with my father there was a test! While you were shooting with my father there were tests, and after you went shooting with my father there were tests. Preshooting tests normally consisted of being able to recite definitions for words related to shooting, and knowing all the associated data for whatever caliber/cartridge/range we were going to be focusing on that day, blah, blah, blah, I know. Tests during shooting would consist of a wide variety of games like the flinch game, where we would load the guns for each other. Sometimes they were loaded, and sometimes they weren’t? You never knew, until after you’d pulled the trigger. It’s pretty obvious when you flinch on a dry fire... Being able to tell how far away the target is, and not by counting steps, that would be too easy, and what range finder? You shoot the target. “All of the data for figuring out how far away it was, is on the paper”. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that. Sometimes the games were more fun, but we didn’t play those games until we were ready, of course. These games were the normal clay pigeon, plinking for candy, shooting the wheel that was rolling down the hill. Post shooting tests were more a question and answers, free speaking type of forum.
So here is my point. I’ve shot a ton. We never shot a rifle on a bench unless it had not been sighted in. We would sit in a chair, sit on the ground, lay on the ground, Shoot behind you, stand free hand, stand using the sling, stand while shooting a moving target and so on. I know you’re probably thinking that my Dad was a drill sergeant, but he wasn’t, and for the most part he kept it fun. But, of all the things I was taught, here is what I know;
1. Most people can’t shoot, and you’d better believe that they think they can, and they will strongly defend their abilities.
2. Hollywood is bull****.
3. Hitting a moving target is a lot harder than most people think.
4. There is a science to shooting.
5. Practice makes things interesting.
6. Which side of the equator you’re on is effected by barrel twist, even though not by much.
7. Shooting up and down hills effects the projectile more that one would normally think.
8. Shooting in steady wind is pretty easy and fun.
Now, I have shot at a ten-ply truck tire with ply wood carriage bolted in it, with targets stapled inside. I’ve shot, and I’m not exaggerating, thousands of rounds that way while the tire was rolling down a hill.. Keeping in mind that you do get better with practice, it isn’t easy. And more often than not, you miss. Most people think they could be good at this, but they incorrectly compare this exercise with shooting skeet. Skeet don’t bounce up and down (like running deer) and get limbs and trees in the way. I got pretty good at this game with a shotgun (and I was shooting slugs), but not with a rifle and even less skilled with a scoped rifle. You see when you shoot at something like this, you should shoot while the target is in the air, because it is “committed” meaning it can’t stop, change speed or direction. And since you only have a few “in the air” chances, you need to be fast, lead and pull the trigger knowing when the gun is going off, which will result in a flinch, no matter how tough you think you are. We’ll save “getting to know your flinch” for another day.
I don’t shoot at a running deer. I never have, and I don’t think I’m out of line in saying that I’m probably better or at least as qualified as most people in this forum in regards to shooting at a moving target. But, given the fact that I don’t need this animal, making a clean kill is unlikely, I consider poorly placed shots unethical, I don’t shoot at them while they’re running. I would only shoot at a moving deer if it were close, had no obstructions, and were moving slowly. Further, I stated earlier that I don’t “need” the meat. And I do let the young ones go. I like hunting mature bucks. In my area, there aren’t a whole lot of them. The ones I do hunt with a firearm, I usually stalk them, which you probably already know that this is a very difficult task. That said, I don’t get a bunch of shots! So, I really don’t have a lot of opportunities to miss. Further, I did recognize earlier in the thread, that if I were in a position to need to take more shots, I would probably miss on occasion. So in summary, when you have knowledge, practice and most importantly discipline, I don’t find it all that hard to believe that I haven’t missed. And I’ll say again, I don’t intend to.
Ontelk,
You are 100% correct. Missing the deer with the bow was my fault. I made a mistake. I sat in my stand looked at my normal (firearm)shooting lanes, and started hunting, well, sitting and waiting. When the mama doe (which was one of the deer I was waiting on) came through, I stood up and took the shot. The arrow was deflected big time, and at first I didn’t understand why. I know now. I stood up, which I wouldn’t normally do while gun hunting, and bow hunting was new to me. It was a mistake, but not one that I knew I was making and decided to go ahead with. Because I think we’d probably agree that if you know…. Then it probably isn’t a mistake, right? I would have to call it poor ethics.
Kshafer,
I will rip you, but not on your hunting. You already know how I feel, and I already know what kind of a hunter you are. How about your writing? You say you don’t “no” the difference between dumb and stupid. You also don’t know the difference between “no” and “know”!
I’m going to respond to your post since I think your last paragraph was directed towards me, and even more so, my claims to have never have missed a deer with a firearm.
If you go look at my posts it won’t take long for you to see that I don’t make huge claims of success, tell tall tales or proclaim to be a marksman. My statement is in fact true, but if you were to dig deeper you’d find that it isn’t such a rare feat, and it isn’t by mistake. Here is my background and the extent of my experience;
My father is BIG on education. In fact I’d say he is obsessed with it. He has four degrees, retired from the Secret Service and still attends college. He holds two real estate licenses and has never sold a piece of property that didn’t belong to him. If you were to ask why, he would say because he was interested in it.
Well, he was also very interested in hunting and shooting. So were his two boys, and now, we know how to shoot. And when I say that, I’m not suggesting that I can do anything special. But before you went shooting with my father there was a test! While you were shooting with my father there were tests, and after you went shooting with my father there were tests. Preshooting tests normally consisted of being able to recite definitions for words related to shooting, and knowing all the associated data for whatever caliber/cartridge/range we were going to be focusing on that day, blah, blah, blah, I know. Tests during shooting would consist of a wide variety of games like the flinch game, where we would load the guns for each other. Sometimes they were loaded, and sometimes they weren’t? You never knew, until after you’d pulled the trigger. It’s pretty obvious when you flinch on a dry fire... Being able to tell how far away the target is, and not by counting steps, that would be too easy, and what range finder? You shoot the target. “All of the data for figuring out how far away it was, is on the paper”. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that. Sometimes the games were more fun, but we didn’t play those games until we were ready, of course. These games were the normal clay pigeon, plinking for candy, shooting the wheel that was rolling down the hill. Post shooting tests were more a question and answers, free speaking type of forum.
So here is my point. I’ve shot a ton. We never shot a rifle on a bench unless it had not been sighted in. We would sit in a chair, sit on the ground, lay on the ground, Shoot behind you, stand free hand, stand using the sling, stand while shooting a moving target and so on. I know you’re probably thinking that my Dad was a drill sergeant, but he wasn’t, and for the most part he kept it fun. But, of all the things I was taught, here is what I know;
1. Most people can’t shoot, and you’d better believe that they think they can, and they will strongly defend their abilities.
2. Hollywood is bull****.
3. Hitting a moving target is a lot harder than most people think.
4. There is a science to shooting.
5. Practice makes things interesting.
6. Which side of the equator you’re on is effected by barrel twist, even though not by much.
7. Shooting up and down hills effects the projectile more that one would normally think.
8. Shooting in steady wind is pretty easy and fun.
Now, I have shot at a ten-ply truck tire with ply wood carriage bolted in it, with targets stapled inside. I’ve shot, and I’m not exaggerating, thousands of rounds that way while the tire was rolling down a hill.. Keeping in mind that you do get better with practice, it isn’t easy. And more often than not, you miss. Most people think they could be good at this, but they incorrectly compare this exercise with shooting skeet. Skeet don’t bounce up and down (like running deer) and get limbs and trees in the way. I got pretty good at this game with a shotgun (and I was shooting slugs), but not with a rifle and even less skilled with a scoped rifle. You see when you shoot at something like this, you should shoot while the target is in the air, because it is “committed” meaning it can’t stop, change speed or direction. And since you only have a few “in the air” chances, you need to be fast, lead and pull the trigger knowing when the gun is going off, which will result in a flinch, no matter how tough you think you are. We’ll save “getting to know your flinch” for another day.
I don’t shoot at a running deer. I never have, and I don’t think I’m out of line in saying that I’m probably better or at least as qualified as most people in this forum in regards to shooting at a moving target. But, given the fact that I don’t need this animal, making a clean kill is unlikely, I consider poorly placed shots unethical, I don’t shoot at them while they’re running. I would only shoot at a moving deer if it were close, had no obstructions, and were moving slowly. Further, I stated earlier that I don’t “need” the meat. And I do let the young ones go. I like hunting mature bucks. In my area, there aren’t a whole lot of them. The ones I do hunt with a firearm, I usually stalk them, which you probably already know that this is a very difficult task. That said, I don’t get a bunch of shots! So, I really don’t have a lot of opportunities to miss. Further, I did recognize earlier in the thread, that if I were in a position to need to take more shots, I would probably miss on occasion. So in summary, when you have knowledge, practice and most importantly discipline, I don’t find it all that hard to believe that I haven’t missed. And I’ll say again, I don’t intend to.
Ontelk,
You are 100% correct. Missing the deer with the bow was my fault. I made a mistake. I sat in my stand looked at my normal (firearm)shooting lanes, and started hunting, well, sitting and waiting. When the mama doe (which was one of the deer I was waiting on) came through, I stood up and took the shot. The arrow was deflected big time, and at first I didn’t understand why. I know now. I stood up, which I wouldn’t normally do while gun hunting, and bow hunting was new to me. It was a mistake, but not one that I knew I was making and decided to go ahead with. Because I think we’d probably agree that if you know…. Then it probably isn’t a mistake, right? I would have to call it poor ethics.
Kshafer,
I will rip you, but not on your hunting. You already know how I feel, and I already know what kind of a hunter you are. How about your writing? You say you don’t “no” the difference between dumb and stupid. You also don’t know the difference between “no” and “know”!
12-12-2006, 03:49 PM
#62
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 257
RE: No Blood No Deer?
killer.......oh good lord do you have any idea what abbriviations are???? and no you dont have any idea what kind of a hunter i am because you dontKNOW me, thearea that i live in, and having to use slug guns. it just ticks me off that you go around going "ya i have never missed a deer with a gun" try having to get the deer into bow range to even shoot at them with a gun! you really needto get to know what kind of situations people are hunting in before yougo and say youKNOW what kind of a hunter they are. you also need to learn that somepeople are likeme and are 15 year old kids working allthe time for a littleover minimum wagejust to be able to hunt and buy hunting supplies. so we dont have all the high tech guns and all thatcrap we just havethe stuff that we can provide for ourselves. and believe me we are prouder than hell when weget a deer. even if its a small doelike my first and onlysofar wasweKNOW thatit is meat that we have provided forour families that they donthave to go buy somewhere. so i think that you need to learn that some people dont have the kind of dad thatyou have and realize thatthere are people that have to work for their stuff. i think its kind of ***STUPID***(not dumb!!!!) that you comment on peoples grammaron a computer.
12-12-2006, 04:08 PM
#64
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,394
RE: No Blood No Deer?
Okay, You're 15. Here is a lesson for you, and I'm not trying to be smart about it. If you're smart for your age you'll read what I have to say and then read it again before you comment.
I have shot deer with a bow. And in fact, I know you'll find this hard to believe, but, I tend to get into trouble in the bow forum too...
You see those guys think that only bow hunters have skill. They make comments like "hunting with a gun is just too easy anymore", and "with a gun, it's just killing" "It's not a challenge". Here is the problem with that statement. All the people saying that are "passive" hunters. Passive hunting, is like the black widow spider. She builds her web and sits her butt down and waits. What is so hard about that. If you go read some of my posts from over there you'll see where one guy even said, "I have to get to my stand quietly", like that is soooooooooo hard. Try walking all day!
I admit, that if you simply take any form of hunting, remove the firearm and replace it with a bow, you've made it more difficult, but, but, but....
It is my opinion (and by the way, I'm right) that "active" hunting with that slug gun of yours is way harder, more challenging, you name it. Getting on the ground, making noise, moving and all the other stuff, is more of a disadvantagethan the advantage you gain by carrying the gun. But you're really hunting now. You don't sit and wait - you go get them!
They don't see it.
By the way, my stands are permanent, and they are in thick funnels. When a deer comes in, it is in bow range, and I know what you mean about getting in that close while you have a gun, because guns stink, like hoppies #9!
I look forward to speaking with you in the future young man. But for now, I have to go home to my wife and four children. You make claims that your life is hard! Ha! Try being the sole provider for six little buddy - but hey, I'm loving it!
Here is the secret. Of all the negative stuff in this thread, you can learn from it. It does have some useful info. If you'd like more, you know where to find me!
Good luck and happy hunting!
I have shot deer with a bow. And in fact, I know you'll find this hard to believe, but, I tend to get into trouble in the bow forum too...
You see those guys think that only bow hunters have skill. They make comments like "hunting with a gun is just too easy anymore", and "with a gun, it's just killing" "It's not a challenge". Here is the problem with that statement. All the people saying that are "passive" hunters. Passive hunting, is like the black widow spider. She builds her web and sits her butt down and waits. What is so hard about that. If you go read some of my posts from over there you'll see where one guy even said, "I have to get to my stand quietly", like that is soooooooooo hard. Try walking all day!
I admit, that if you simply take any form of hunting, remove the firearm and replace it with a bow, you've made it more difficult, but, but, but....
It is my opinion (and by the way, I'm right) that "active" hunting with that slug gun of yours is way harder, more challenging, you name it. Getting on the ground, making noise, moving and all the other stuff, is more of a disadvantagethan the advantage you gain by carrying the gun. But you're really hunting now. You don't sit and wait - you go get them!
They don't see it.
By the way, my stands are permanent, and they are in thick funnels. When a deer comes in, it is in bow range, and I know what you mean about getting in that close while you have a gun, because guns stink, like hoppies #9!
I look forward to speaking with you in the future young man. But for now, I have to go home to my wife and four children. You make claims that your life is hard! Ha! Try being the sole provider for six little buddy - but hey, I'm loving it!
Here is the secret. Of all the negative stuff in this thread, you can learn from it. It does have some useful info. If you'd like more, you know where to find me!
Good luck and happy hunting!
12-12-2006, 04:19 PM
#65
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 257
RE: No Blood No Deer?
alright everybody i think that i owe all of you and especially killer primate a hugeapology here. i had no right to come in here and single him out like that. so killer, i hope that you accept this apology. i didnt think that anybody had any idea what it is like to hunt with guns that will shoot about 50 yards if youre lucky. (by the way it sucks)
thats usually why i stick my butt in a stand and then if i see a deer is heading away from me or they are a ways out and i am running out of light then i will go try to get em. ya i hate it how they (bow forum) think that gun hunters have no skill cause some of us have to get just as close to the deer to shoot them with a gun! well i hope you accept this apology killer i am truly sorry about all this.
thats usually why i stick my butt in a stand and then if i see a deer is heading away from me or they are a ways out and i am running out of light then i will go try to get em. ya i hate it how they (bow forum) think that gun hunters have no skill cause some of us have to get just as close to the deer to shoot them with a gun! well i hope you accept this apology killer i am truly sorry about all this.
12-12-2006, 09:16 PM
#67
Fork Horn
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: galesville, wisconsin
Posts: 229
RE: No Blood No Deer
Killer Primate, i think you better calm down a bit. telling somebody you'll send them condoms so you'll protect the next generation is crossing the line. Maybe you ought to send himyouraddress so he can come and kick your ass. and to say you've never missed a deer with a gun??? do all of the deer you shoot walk right up to you or what?!? everybody has missed before. if you say you haven't missed a deer with a gun you're obviously lying and can't admit to not being perfect yourself..i'm not saying Merlin11274 was all the way in the right. he should have had her shoot it, but damn...lay off a bit..I know if i was him i be pissed too...
12-12-2006, 10:21 PM
#68
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 37
RE: No Blood No Deer?
This thread is unbelievable! Everyone, (except killer I guess) will miss a deer sometime. I did it this last saturday. Missed a great broadside shot at a buck. I was just nervous and jerked the trigger. I've gone over it in my head a hundred times since then. But I just plain missed and there is nothing immoral about that. Now, maybe I missed because I don't have access to a range to practice at. I sight in every year and I use a 30-06, which leaves no mistake about hitting the deer or not. But I dont' take long shots that I'm not comfortable with.
According to Killer, there would be very few of us who are qualified to be in the wood aiming at anything. Just because I don't meet his standard, won't keep me from hunting. I'll just be one of those immoral hunters out there.
I didn't have anyone to teach me to hunt. No tests from my obsessivefather. I"m 44 and I just started threeyears ago. I think all that obsession may havedone some psychological damage to theguy. What a righteous SOB!!
According to Killer, there would be very few of us who are qualified to be in the wood aiming at anything. Just because I don't meet his standard, won't keep me from hunting. I'll just be one of those immoral hunters out there.
I didn't have anyone to teach me to hunt. No tests from my obsessivefather. I"m 44 and I just started threeyears ago. I think all that obsession may havedone some psychological damage to theguy. What a righteous SOB!!
12-12-2006, 11:35 PM
#69
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kountze, Texas
Posts: 5,390
RE: No Blood No Deer?
After reading this whole thread with much amusement, this is what I have gathered. It all goes back to "point blank range"
A simple definition of point blank range is basically being able hit the vitals of a given animal without having to raise your point of aim. That distance could be directly on top of the animal, or several hundred yards depending on the size of the animal's vitals, and how flat your gun shoots.
That is the key to never missing a shot....but is it?
After taking into account the affect the moon and the tidal force has on your bullet, and masking the scent of hoppes #9 with the smell of rust for the lack of cleaning your gun, I think"Stalking" is the key to being an ethical (One who never misses) hunter. If you can stalk up to the deer and slip the barrel of your rifle in its ear and pull the trigger...well, you would never miss...Of course you would never get a shot either....which you could say "I have never missed."
Sorry, just illustrating absurdity by being absurd.
C. Davis
A simple definition of point blank range is basically being able hit the vitals of a given animal without having to raise your point of aim. That distance could be directly on top of the animal, or several hundred yards depending on the size of the animal's vitals, and how flat your gun shoots.
That is the key to never missing a shot....but is it?
After taking into account the affect the moon and the tidal force has on your bullet, and masking the scent of hoppes #9 with the smell of rust for the lack of cleaning your gun, I think"Stalking" is the key to being an ethical (One who never misses) hunter. If you can stalk up to the deer and slip the barrel of your rifle in its ear and pull the trigger...well, you would never miss...Of course you would never get a shot either....which you could say "I have never missed."
Sorry, just illustrating absurdity by being absurd.
C. Davis