RE: 243 and deer
 

These are deer camp wives' tales. By definition the higher caliber guns have more kinetic energy and even MORE at close range.

Blowing through the deer is a myth, too. The more power, the more hydrostatic shock and the more bullet expansion. The only way to "blow through the deer" would be with a slower moving solid.

RE: 243 and deer
 

thats the deer my son shot last year, 190+ yd shot.
Heres the same deer out in the field. I dont always get exit wounds like that, sometimes its just a small hole, but a lot of bruising and internals are mush. This deer did require a follow up shot, I walked up to him and shot him in the neck.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Never seen a deer killed with a .243 have you big???

RE: 243 and deer
 

You obviously don't know what you are talking about, the higher velocity cartridges, like the .300 Win Mag, with the right bullet, will usually do severe damage to the internal oragans of a deer, without even exiting, so to say the higher caliber guns have less kinetic energy at close range, is incorrect, it depends on the bullet used, as to the effect on game.

RE: 243 and deer
 

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that a 243 probably delivers as much energy on target on deer/antelope size game as much more powerful cartridges do, like the 300 win mag. Yes the 300 has a much more power, but once it passes through the deer, it's not of any use any more. This is just a guess though, as I've never read any credible sources that proved this argument.

That said, I do not believe energy means much when it comes to killing power. For example, a 45 LC pistol only has about 300lbs ME but will cleanly kill any deer out to 50 yds with a 300 gr cast bullet. I believe shot placement and wound diameter are most important.

I've never seen a 243 used on deer, but have seen a 257 Roberts, and it is pretty much the same thing. It works just as well as my 7 Mag, 30-06, 308, and 45-70 inside of 200 yds, and better than my 44 Mag and 30-30.

RE: 243 and deer
 

My dad uses a 30 06

RE: 243 and deer
 

That is truly the worst theoryI have ever heard, look at the ballistics, the .300 Win Mag has a lot more energy, it just depends on what bullet you use, as far as pass throughs go, so, no, the .243 doesn't have anymore contact power then the .300 Win mag, it's impossible. And, energy does mean quite a bit in killing power, bullet diameter doesn't, I used to have the mind set, that the 45-70 was superior to the 416 Rigby, and similar calibers, because it had a larger bullet, that is not true, the 45-70 just cannot match the .416 Rigby, when it comes to power, I'm not gonna argue with you, as it would be a waste of time, if you think those big bullets, with their rainbow trajectory, kill game better, then that is your problem.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Wrong. Energy means nothing, but velocity does, so does expanded bullet diameters. The reason and only reason a .300 mag would be better than a 30-06 is out at long distances the 300 will still have the needed velocity for adequate expansion, Velocity=expansion=big hole. Bigger holes mean faster death.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Ok, zrex, tell me, would you rather use, a .338 Win Mag, or a 7mm Mag, on a grizzly bear? Or do you even own a magnum caliber? If what you are saying is true, then, the faster 7mm mag, would surely blow a bigger hole in that bear right? Because it expands more due to higher velocity.

RE: 243 and deer
 

No thats not what I am saying, you have to compare expanded bullet diameters. A 338 is already starting off bigger in diameter than the 7mm. Fire both into an animal and recover bullets and measure expanded diameters, the .338 is going to leave a bigger hole and penetrate more with the heavier bullets. Compare a 7 mag to say a 7-08 at 500 yds, the mag will have the needed velocity for expansion, see what I am trying to say ?

RE: 243 and deer
 

Actually, for once, I do. And now that you mention that, I feel like an idiot for even owning a magnum.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Magnums offer no more killing power per say at close ranges than its little brother and actually can cause problems at close ranges, the high velocities can cause bullets to blow up at close range, and lack penetration, so then you go to harder bullets and then you start blowing tiny holes in deer. A 30-06 can be better than a 300 mag at close range but vice versa at long range.
Magnums are intended for long range. But I doubt any deer will stop a 300 mag at close range, but get into bigger game and I bet you will see what I am talking about.
We took 2 huge hogs with my friends 300 at close range, the mag did not go through them, but I bet if we would have shot them at 150-200 yds it would have gone through.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Zrex, I actually, for once, see that you are making a valid claim, and I actually see how dumb I am now for owning a few magnums, when a standard caliber would do just fine, with less recoil. I think the way I hunt game has just changed, I have seen the er of my ways, and I regret it, what good does that extra power do you? None at all, only bragging rights is about it, and really, that doesn't even matter. Zrex, thank you for pointing all this out to me, now, I have some soul searching to do.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Bulletsexpansion is determined by its velocity. Here is a swift scirroco bonded, it maximum expansion is at 2700fps, what happens in a mag at say 3100fps at say 50 yds.


2700fps 2245fps 1730fps 1440fps

RE: 243 and deer
 

The bullet explodes, when it makes contact, moving at 3100 fps.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Most soft point bullets are designed to expand at or around 2700fps. That just seems to be a magic number.No matter the calibur it just is the right muzzel velocity. ie ---30-06 180 gr 2700fps / 250 savage 100 gr 2700fps

RE: 243 and deer
 

Please understand, I'm not doubting you, but where ever did you find that data?

Ex. .30/06 180 gr., MUZZLE velocity 2700fps. Are we required to place the muzzle against the deer, or can we stand back a little?

RE: 243 and deer
 

The pics I posted above were from a scirrocco bonded bullet, so I would say a soft point would be a bit less. But if you also notice it has good expansion at 2200fps as well, so this particulat bullet would be best between 22 and 2700 fps.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Chantecler111, I do not know that you necessarily have some soul searching to do, but more-over perhaps some new rifle ( s ) searching to do....LOL...

Good luck in your quest.

And what zrexpilot was saying is exactly what I came to understand years ago by studying ballistics tables and bullet expansion charts. My first rifle was a used 30-30.My first new rifle, about 16 years ago,was a .270. Then a 7mm-08 followed, then a .243, then a .308, then a 30-06, then a .243 ( yesterday ) . I just got my Ruger M77 Compact .243 Stainless / Laminate, and it is sooooo great.

I currently have all of these rifles, and I believe I can do anything I need or want to do with them. Magnums have never been a part of my vocabulary.

God bless

Oh - BTW - and if I ever feel the need to boost any of these rounds, I will shoot some Hornady light mag ammo. It will Add around 200 ft / lb of energy to your round.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Michael, when I say that zrex's post, had a profound affect on me, I'm not kidding, I finally see that magnums, really arn't all that great, they are hard to shoot good, as well, I have been considering trading a .300 Win Mag for a .280, that seems like a good idea all the time, and Michael, you know as good as I, that a .338 Win Mag just isn't necessary in Arkansas, I own one, BTW, and I'm going to trade it in as well, I definently have some rifle searching to do,LOL.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Chantecler111

Yep, I know what you mean. Zrex' did a great job on this post, and there are not many situations in our Happy state where a magnum would be the required medicine. But, at my lease, they logged 80 acres this past summer. I now have the possibility for a 500 yard shot. BUT, I do not feel good about a 500 yard shot. 400 MAX YARDS, MAYBE. So with that said, I can take my .308 and it will handle anything I would shoot at. 300 - 400 yards max, I can take the 7mm-08. 250 to 300 yards max I can take the .243. So I honestly believe that I have a short action caliber that will handle any shooting situation I might have. ( I love short action calibers , if you couldn't notice...LOL ). If I am not sure about my hunting situation that day, or I go somewhere else to hunt deer or a larger animal, I have the .270 or the 30-06, which will take up any slack.

And , BTW, there is nothing wrong with a .280. It can just about do it all.

But I do like short action guns, because they are versitle. I can use this Ruger Compact in a tower stand, ladder, or climbing, with equal ease. It is only 35 1/2 " OAL. and is just under 6 lbs. without the scope. It is light , handy, and will come to point very quickly and easily.

My other small gun is a Rem. Model 7 in 7mm-08. The .308 is a full size Ruger M77 Mark II Stainless / Synth. It is a tack driver.

Good Gun huntin'.. And if you need any help, holler at me, I love shopping for new guns.LOL.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Thank you, Michael, LOL.

RE: 243 and deer
 

You can actually be overgunned, people say thats not true but it is. The .338 is designed for big game, its bullet is designed for bone crushing penetration,the heavy bullet can punch through a little 'ol whitetail without breaking a sweat and getting no expansion, so the size of the hole can be .338 in diameter, a .243's expanded diameter reaches .5 of an inch, a .30 calibercan be .65. A 45-70 would probably not expand well on a whitetail either but thats a big hole, .45 of an inch.
Target resistance plays into expansion. Deer just dont really offer any resistance so to speak of.Generally one would want total penetration with exit, with total expansion. The more tissue damage the faster the kills, so tecnically hollow points and bullet fragmentation only ads to the killing power, but not if it does it before reaching both lungs.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Even so, I don't see Bambi going too far after being hit in the lungs with a .338, or the shoulders for that matter.

RE: 243 and deer
 

no doubt

RE: 243 and deer
 

Zrex, I have to admit, though, you have enlightened my thinking in the world of killing power.

RE: 243 and deer
 

The 300 grain HP bullets expand well in the 45-70. The Heavier round nose like the 350 Grain Hornady Interlock need top 45-70 velocities to expand in Game like bears. Reloadig is what gives a hunter a wide range of versitility as most all calibers have bullets available which perform well on thin skinned and also heavier game. Also at a wide range of velocities. Sectional density also has a huge effect on bullet expansion low SD bullets will expand in small game and varmits but will probably blow up on heavier game. High Density bullets may well punch small holes through lighter game and have no or very little expansion. Sd of 200-250 is about right for deer while 260-300 is suited for elk and 300 on up for very heavy beasts with thick hides. This changes a bit with heavy pistol bullet with less density but wide flat noses.

RE: 243 and deer
 

WOW, i learned alot about the 300 mag, I love the 243, and the magnums are overrated. If i could only own one gun it would probably be the 300 mag, but who only owns one gun. I'm talking about hunting deer. Some of us should learn to hunt, so shots over 300 yeards don't happen.

RE: 243 and deer
 

Its not that the magnums are overrated, its just, the average hunter, doesn't need them, 99.9% of hunters hunt in conditions, in which, the longest shot doesn't exceed 100 yards, magnums, were designed for long range shooting, 400+ yard shots, and quite frankly, all of the magnums I have ever owned, peform superbly at long range, and will drop a deer in his tracks, at ranges under 100 yards. Magnums, are very deadly, as a long range weapon, in the right hands. But, some people just don't enjoy the thunder, or the recoil that they generate.

RE: 243 and deer
 

what aboutthe 243 wssm

Whoa!
 

I think a great deal of these discussions are primarily based on the
"oh yeah! theres no doubt my rifles better than yours... mentality"
the problem is rarely the rifle or cartridge used,
its finding the game, and getting a decent shot.
Ive seen enough elk and mule deer killed with everything from a 44-mag hand gun to a 458 winchester
to realize its the hunters ability to precisely place a shot in the vitals,
his knowledge of the games anatomy and experience too select and use a projectile,
with enough mass and structural integrity to penetrate adequately, that are the keys
almost all the center fire rifles will get the job done, at reasonable ranges and conditions.
most people can,t see the advantages of using a magnum,
simply because they hunt deer or similar game, at ranges under 300 yards,
which are rather easily killed, and few hunters can consistently hit accurately ,much further.
personally Ive yet to feel my 340 wby or 375 H&H put me at any disadvantage.
Ive also used a 257 roberts, and 358 win,and 450 marlin BLR and 44 mag marlin carbine
Ive used a 6mm rem, browning 78 single shot, and a ruger #1 in 257 wby....they all worked.
carry what your comfortable with and practice until you can hit a coke can at 100 yards off hand and youll do fine!

I use 243 and I think the .243 is a great caliber for deer

I love the 243 and the magnums are overrated ...

while I fully agree a 243 win in the hands of a decent shot,
when properly used with the correct ammo is very lethal and effective on deer are reasonable ranges
(300 yards or so) I don,t think the better magnums are "over rated"
use a tool matching the intended job. magnums do have a valid place.
theres a very noticeable difference in my experience, in
the games initial reaction and in many cases, distance traveled once hit.
if your dealing with deer size game I prefer the 25/06-270 win class of cartridges.
yes a knowledge of the games anatomy and shot placement are as always critical,
yes hundreds of people kill elk every year with a 243 win, that does not make it ideal
each of us has different experiences, and I have decades of field time that make me more comfortable using a 340 wby or 375 H&H
on larger game like elk, especially if the potential range may exceed 300 yards,and shot angles tend to be less than ideal.
yes recoil is an issue some people don,t handle well, but personally its a non-issue at that level, and I've seen,
a noticeable and demonstrable advantage, in reach and penetration,
yes Ive used the same rifle calibers on mule deer, I've yet to see a deer shrug off a well placed hit from either rifle

one old geezer that taught me to hunt , back in the early 1970s,,
used a 257 Roberts in a pre 1964 Winchester, for decades,
he used to constantly joke about my 340 wby,
and how I used to have to carry several extra pounds of rifle ,
when his Winchester was all that was needed.
he killed more than his share of deer and occasionally an elk.
I helped him drag or pack out several, over several decades.
on one occasion we were sitting on the edge of a clear-cut,
that had started to re-grow and there were lots of 3-5 foot tree-lings,
over several acres, a legal elk slowly entered the area we watched over,
the old geezer only had a deer licence that year,
so I was sitting with my bi-pod on a large fallen log,
with the cross hairs on the area high but just over the the heart,
behind his shoulder, when it became obvious he was the only legal bull ,
I estimated the range at about 170 yards
I fired, the elk dropped like a demolition on an older building.
the older guy looked at me and said...
..damn , that was impressive
..I've never seen any elk convinced so fast that he was dead before.
most elk I shoot want to consider the matter ,
think it over ...... maybe cover 40-50 yards.!
then conclude I was right!
kid that was impressive!
" that made my day "

Well if you're looking to trade it in the .270 and the .30-30 are proven deer killers. But all I ever had during my teens and through college was a left hand Savage 110 in .243. Using 100 gr Hornady bullets pushed by 40.5 gr of IMR4350 I killed a lot of deer with it (all but one was DRT) and quite a few groundhogs. To this day even though there are better cartridges out there I wouldn't hesitate to use the .243 on deer. As far as factory ammo goes I probably use a 100 gr load by Federal. I think it just better ammo than Rem or Win.

Fabulous account, hardcast, Thanks!
I dig the 6mm's but have all the respect for the magnums.

Y'all realize this thread is 12 years old, right?

Add me to the list of people who prefer the 25-06/270 type cartridges for deer hunting. Unless its with a handgun, in which case I admit I suffer from Magnumitis.

hunter safety course in Ohio
 

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