New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

New here, not sure if this has been discussed yet or not, but would like to get opinions on the topic...

If you are not aware, the Texas Parks and Wildlife had used 13 counties in experimenting with a new law that would not allow hunters to take a non-spike buck unless he had an inside spread of over 13 inches... You could take one spike (or one buck with one unbranched beam) and one buck with a 13 or over inside spread...

You're supposed to judge this by the spread compared to the deer's ears in the alert position, which should be around 13 inches...

The experiment satisfied the TPW and they went ahead and added more counties in that general area to the list of counties that would have to follow these guidelines...

Now, I honestly believe that this is a good thing overall... But what about those bucks you wanna cull? I know people in the area who still cull a buck to whipe out the genes instead of taking their spike and minus the law breakage, I can't really blame them...

So, what do you non-fair-chasers who do not have the luxery of hunting 10k acre public-land and are involved in game-management think about this...

Just sturring up some convo...

nice forum by the way...

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Are the Game Wardens going to cut any slack to the people who are a bit off in estimating the spread before dropping their deer? I can see this as a real issue considering the Fish-n-Game folks are already doing a good job of using the Constitution as bum fodder.

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I not a gene scientist or anything, but think about it. Most spikes you see are what a 1 1/2 yrs old. There has to be a lot of spikes that don't get shot each yr. So they must lose the spikes and grow branched horns. Granted they might not be booners. Just a thought.

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I'm pretty sure if it's close enough the warden will let you off, that would only be right...

As for the other reply, I'm guessing you are saying that if you can't take a 13-under, why take a spike?

Good question, but I guess I have a good answer... meat and the young ones...

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

My area has been in need of change for some time. As a one buck county,hunters were leftwith the option of either taking a trophy or taking a management deer. With the deer population skyrocketing, the regulations had become a little outdated. Annual harvests don't even appear to make a dent in the overall population. With that population increase, I have noticed more and more spikes. I seldom saw a spike in the 80's, and still infrequently until the late 90's. This year, I have seen more spikes than any year previous. To me, that indicates a problem with herd management, and the need for change to correct the problem. Most hunters are interested in herd management, but the one-buck regulationsalmost punishhunters for management.

Texas Parks and Wildlife does a very good job managing our wildlife and fisheries resource, and we are fortunate to live in a state that recognizes the true value of those resources. I'm glad to see they are always looking for ways to improve and better manage our resources.

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Yes, it was all one-buck down here as well until this year...

No names, no places, but in reference to people culling, there was a 7-point with aless than 10-inch spread taken in one of the counties... Big bodied deer, used two systems for aging and they were both around the 3 1/2 year old mark... the rack may have had 7 points, but it was really short and really small...

Interesting rack though, had a kicker coming out of the back (not a lot of kickers around this area for some reason or another)and a weird flattened out look on the tip of one of the main beams... I've seen 'em flat, but not like this...

What's interesting is that a deer taken not 5 miles from this place last year had 3 main beams, one without any branches wrapping around the outside of the other... the other two beams presented a perfect looking 10 scoring around a 135-140... still waiting to see the pictures...

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I don't like to see states get into the trophy management business. If a club or individual has acerage that they want to voluntarily manage for trophy animals, then great for them. No problem. The problem I have is the young or novice hunter that goes out on private or public land and they are restricted to a management idea. Lots of areas have too many deer anyway.

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Well I guess it is a step in the right direction.

But they should also open up the anterless tags and season.

Some of the country I have hunted both private and public the buck to doe ratio is way out of whack.
In most cases you can only take a doe during archery season or on Thanksgiving weekend for the rifle boys.

If they really wanted to make an impression on the herds then we should be allowed to take out more doe'sso the better bucks will be the ones doing the breeding and not inferior bucks.

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I am not looking at the numbers currently but did read up on this a couple of months ago. Now that the restrictions have been in place for a few years the harvest numbers for buck are about the same The only difference is that folks are now shooting 3 1/2 year old bucks instead of 1 1/2 year old bucks. The restrictions protected most 1 1/2 and most 2 1/2 year old deer but almost all of the 3 1/2 year old bucks qualified. I may change my mind later but right now I think it is a good thing.

-john

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

In our local newspaper's outdoor section last week, there was an article about asix year study, of three Louisiana parishes. (3 years average harvest, compared to 3 years priorof statistics)
Without getting into the specific numbers, yearling buck harvest was cut more than half.
2 1/2 yr. old harvest was also down.
3 1/2 yr. old harvest was almost unchanged.
And, 4 1/2 yr.old harvest more than doubled.
For the three years of the study, over-all buck harvest was down about 20%, and no doe numbers were mentioned. The study's conclusion was that the average body, and antler sizes did NOT significantly increase, and recommended that taking more does would be the best option for managing bigger deer!
I have to agree with them 100%!
I Think that some of Texas' experimental antler restrictions are good, and I hope that they get over to our East Texas counties one day!
But, we also need some changes in the buck/doe harvest! Currently, most East Tex counties have a two buck, two doe limit. With most counties having a much shorter doe season, than buck seasons! The problem is that many land owners, and lease managers, still have the "cattle ranch philosophy," when it comes to deer management! (one bull, and two dozen cows!) I would hate to give up a buck tag, but something will have to give people an incentive to take less bucks, and more does!
The best management plan might include antler restrictions, but will have to include taking more does!

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I agree with the doe/buck harvest deal, that would help as well...

In the area/region I hunt (DeWitt, Goliad, Victoria and Jackson County) there are a butt load of does...

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I hunt in one of the counties that will be affected next season. My lease is 5K acres. Have had a restriction in place for years that bucks must be 14" or better. In nine years, I've only seen four bucks that size and killed one. Maybe I ain't a great hunter, but judging by the sign out book, I ain't alone in my woes for a big buck.
Not sure how this law will affect the size but I bet it will cut the buck harvest down a lot.

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Yah, that would have to be a huge con in the deal, not seeing bucks over the spread minimum...

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Until the buck/doe ratio gets closer, your just probably not going to see better bucks! Probably not even MORE bucks than you are seeing now!
It is hard for some people to believe but, (generally speaking)the LESS does you have, the more DEER you will see!
Since there are generally more does than bucks in nature, its not rocket science to figure out that if you kill one buck, and one doe, or NO does at all, the buck population is going to be getting thinner! Thinner buck population, = younger bucks, and less reason for the bucks to keep on the move!
Take them does when they let you!

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Here is a link to the study. It is a good thing if you want to shot a bigger buck. If you only want meat why not just shot a doe?



http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/antler_restrictions/


Looks like prior to the change the percentage of bucks 3.5 or older was about 20%....After the change had a chance to take root...65% It all looks good from here.

-john

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I guess I'm different than most. Not only do I not have
a lease (and so must hunt public land) I have only a few
days during the season I can hunt. I also have no desire
to hang a dead animal on the wall of my house (I have no ill
feeling or problem with those that do, I just don't want it
myself).
My real headache is all this "just shoot a doe" talk. I'd LOVE
to shoot a doe, I'd love to shoot 3 does, heck I'd shoot nothing
BUT does. Problem is, the counties within reasonable driving
distance with public hunting are buck ONLY!! ONE BUCK ONLY!!.
AH, this season TPWD did add 4 doe days to the county but
this was for private/leased property. Add to that it was during
Thanksgiving weekend which might work for some but did'nt for
me. This in a county where MLD permits are passed out in
numbers high enough for at least 1 ranch directly adjacent
to the public land advertises day hunts, $50.00 to hunt, $150.00
to shoot a doe. I don't always think things thru real well but to
me this just does not make sense.
I've said it before, I'll say it again, TPWD managing the deer
based on antler sizeis nothing more than TROPHY mangagement.
All I hear any time and anywhere QDM or deer herd managment is
talked about is antler size, width, points and mass. These
restrictions will not ever give me or those like me a better chance
to put venison in the freezer. And until that happens IMHO this
is going in the WRONG direction.

If you made it this far, thanks for listening.
You may now return to your QDM.

PK

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Well all I know to tell you to do is to either save up a little money and get a lease or make friends with folks that own some land......

Now go back and read the study again and you will find that the harvest numbers only went down the first year. After that they either met or exceeded the long term harvest average. This plan does not decrease your chance of a buck. Also with the new proposed changes it will now increase your chance at a buck because the one buck counties will now turn into a 2 buck county (1 over the restrictions and one spike). I am still having problems seeing any negative from the prgram.

-john

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

not if they handle it like they do the fishing, i have measured and remeasured fish to be sure they kept for tournament weigh-ins only, all are released, once on a famous texas lake gw comes up and wants to check my fish, i give him one he hands it back, i give him the second and he turns and puts it in the water, i get very very irate, he ask if i would have rather had a citation, the fish was 21" measured in accordance to tp&w standards, not even a 1/32 short but this j/a took it upon himself to be judge and jury( he never fanned the tail or anything)[:@],like i said i wouldn't count on tp&w cuttin me any slack, i still ended up in 7th in the tournament, but that legal fish cost me about 400 in winnings, up till that day i had the utmost respect for the gw's, but know i realize some of em go to school to become real "professionels" not all but a few;)


BTW the spread law soundsbad to me

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Oh, OK. I'll just go out and spend a couple grand (min)
for the opportunity to hunt a few days a season. Thanks
for the advice, I never thought of that.
("Let them eat cake" comes to mind for some reason.)

I've read, and on your advice re-read the studyand still
see nothing that convinces me this is anything, not a thing
more than antler (trophy) management.
Where does it show how this will increase anyones
chance to put meat in the freezer?
Who benefitsother than trophyhunters wanting to force ALL hunters
to huntin waystobenefit their goals? Show me
how this is going to help the entire deer herd population
when the ONLY stipulation is based on ANTLER SIZE/SPREAD?

As I've said, I'm different than most here. But I'm not
convinced I'mwrong or alone in my thinking, maby just
on an internet huntingforum.

Thanks for the input.
PK

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

How does it sound bad? The havest is the same, the deer are just bigger. I repeat how is that bad?

-john

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I would bet everything Ihave that the "slack" any
TPWDgame warden shows will be very few and very
far between. I have no problem with theGW, they have
a hard job and I respect them. This is just anotherreason
I'm against this whole idea on a state wide basis. GW's
have enough to dowithout policing atrophy management
system. They will haveNO reasonto cut anyone any
slackfor a few tenthsof and inch andwould be negligent
if they did.That in itself is enough reason to leave them
out of antler management.
I still don't know why only land owners who are granted
MLD permits can shootdoes in so many counties and then
they canshoot SCORES of them. This is enough of a
head scratcher to show meTPWD is going in the wrong
direction.

Thanks for the outlet.
PK

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

TX_Hoghunter,
I apologize for hi-jacking this post and really appreciate
the dialogue. My question is, are the deer really going to
be bigger? Or are the racks going to be bigger? I don't
believe antler management will create bigger deer.

Thanks again,
PK

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

He prolly meant bigger racks, and with the same number of deer being taken in these counties is there really a problem with it (Honest question, not being a smart A)????

Also, to the other dude,you can hold your fish while you measure its length... I'd really enjoy seeing you hold the deer to measure its length before you kill it :)

Game Warden on measuring fish that you were supposed to measureis the apple, Game Warden on measuring deer antlers that you tried to judge the length onis the orange... don't compare apples to oranges...

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

First I hunt a $600 a year lease that is full of hogs, deer, ducks, and fish....I know lots of people that drop more money and I might in one day but not now. It is 1100 acres and there are 8 of us on it. Only 3 of us hunt hard. I have included a pic of the type of deer you can shot if you let them grow up a little.

The purpose of the restrictions is to increase the age of the deer harvested. An older deer is a bigger deer. The larger antlers go with the age. The stated purpose is to correct the current age structure of the herd. The harvest only went down the first year after that it met or exceeded the long term average. The increase oppurtunity will come when they also allow you to take a spike, That will turn the one buck counties into 2 buck counties.

-john

P.S. And no there are no opening on the lease.....LOL.

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Thanks GobblerTX, I'm pretty sure that's what he meant
and I'm even more sure that's what this program is designed
for, which makes it a trophy management program at the
expense of ALL hunters.
Again, I would not be near as outspoken on this if it
was'nt so clearly set up to appease or benefit the hunter
whose main reason for hunting is to mount a bigger rack than
he did last season. I can not support the continued direction
deer hunting is taking inTX of "to the highest bidder", and
don't even try to tell me this is'nthappening. The numbers
I've seen advertised in TX is 99% of the land is private and
yet we still manage to get over a million acres for public
hunting, and now that 1% could be put under QUALITY ANTLER
MANAGEMENT!! If you want to groom the deer on your land
I say more power to you. But I still don't think TPWD should
be forcing this on all hunters or all land owners.

PK

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

TX Hoghunter,
That's a great looking deer, and you did answer my
next question about available spots.[X(]

Again, an individual deciding to manage the
deer which happen across their private property
is COMPLETELY different than the state wildlife
department restricting what size antlered (is that a word)
deer another property owner can harvest. Or
what type antlered deer is legal for, let's just take
me for example, can take from public land when it's
already been decreed I can't shoot a doe.

Congrat's on fine deer.
PK

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Yah, I have to change my opinion on what I believe the man said, he said it for me... I posted the message at work, locked up, got in my car, picked up some brew and it hit me...

Older deer are the ones with the +13 inch racks, older deer are also your bigger deer...

So there will be a larger number of bigger deer roaming rather than smaller ones, the only big ones roaming around now are the ones who didn't get killed when they were smaller... When it catches on in these counties, the smaller deer will survive, giving them time to grow bigger in size meaning that there will be a larger number of bigger deer...

Though it does not 'make' them bigger, the law lets them 'Get bigger' by living longer...

That makes sense...

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

An older deer certainly has a chance to be a bigger deer.
I will always have a problem with the TPWD using its
resources to manage this. And my biggest problem is
still being restricted from shooting even 1 doe when the
MLD property next door is making money charging the
general public to take does.
I will cede this to the majority. I will be on the look out
for an affordable private place to hunt though I fear I will
always be out-bid.
I am sincere in saying I'm happy for those whose hunting
goals are being met because of the time you put in and
restraint you show.

God bless & good hunting
PK

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

The numbers aren't gunna lie about the size/age... that's proven, these guys shooting these little4's and 6's(I have nothing against it when it comes to making sausage etc..., plus it's legal, I took a 4-point last year as my first deer) are taking young deer around the 2 1/2 year mark... in another year that deer is bigger and may and in a lot of cases will pass the 13 inch mark...

Screw that 'cede' remark though, stand by your views...

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

With antler restrictions, more than likely there will be an extended season for doe and spike bucks.

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I agree completely .
I don't need the state to tell me that I have to trophy hunt , I can choose or reject that all by myself .

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I have argued with people until we're both blue in the face that proper deer ratios and proper cattle ratios are two different deals entirely. I wouldn't mind ifTPWD would double the number of doe tags. Right now, a lot of people take bucks, but not that many take does. So maybe they should let the people that do want does take more.

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

My whole point in the Louisiana deer study, is while antler restrictions help, taking more does will benefit deer quality even more! As I said, many leases don't even take the number of does allowed, so the buck/doe ratio stays bad!
To a point, I can see PK's frustration with public land! There are virtually no doe permits for public land. There should be some type of lottery system for public land doe permits! There may even be one already, but the general public doesn't see many public land doe permits!
As far as private land goes, its a supply, and demand situation! Unfortunately, many of us will be out bid for better lands! If I were a land owner, I'd want to be paid accordingly too!
However, I've been on many cheaper hunting clubs, that have plenty of deer. So the opportunity is there! Just many of the managers, think they are helping the deer by protecting the does, and they won't even let you have the minimum allowed by the state! Which again, in many places the legal doe limit is STILL TOO LOW!
Bottom line, take them does IF you can!

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I like the idea of a lottery for does tags on public land...

For the folks that don't like the state telling you what you can shoot (managing the herd as it were....) what if I wanted to shoot spotted fawns in March? I mean they taste better then anything else and if I am just a meat hunter then why not? I really have no problem with the restrictions because IT DOES NOT REDUCE THE HARVEST. It just helps to correct the age structure of the population.

-john

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

I don'tthink anyone has insinuated there should be no
game laws and so if you shot any deer in March that
would make you a poacher.Shooting a fawn while in
season would be considered an antlerless, which would
also be illegal ina large number of counties (poaching)
but in those that are allowed antlerless I'm sure it happens.
I would not do it unless Iknew the population was out
of handandI (in my dreams) had already filled but one
last anterless tag and it was the lasthours of my hunt.

Sorry, I know I said I'd back off butTPWDplays a large
part of what I enjoy, much more than just deer hunting.
This isin no way the best way to mangage the deer
population. Sorry to be a broken record (skipping CD for
you young guys) but the intent of this is to me blatantly
aboutforcinganyone who wants to hunt deer, even on
thier own property, into TROPHY ANTLER GROWTH REQUIRED
whether you like it, want it or care about it or not.
Adding another "undesireable" buck to the bag limit will
no doubt give us common "meat hunters" some hope to
hang on too but don't think this is some great gift from the
generous folks above to the great unwashed. This is the
only way to eliminate those dern "culls" from the herd. Just
imagine, someday maby we won't have to worry about
them contaminating the gene pool at all.

OK, now I'm just ranting, I'll really try to stop this time.
I mean it.
I hope.

God bless and happy horn hunting,
PK

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Now I am not just a hunter of horns....I have probably shoot more does/spikes then most. If the changes decreased the harvest then I could agree with you, but the facts are the havest is only affected for one year and then it bounces back. Even on public land you wuld have the same oppurtunity to harvest deer they would just be older and would be coming from a herd that is overall healthier.

-john

P.S. I am sure most folks are tired of this thread by now so I will try to stay out of it.......LOL

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Frank,
I think you are absolutely right about the does. It is a common thing on many of the leases around here to have old guys who have a big say-so in the 'Lease Rules' and limit the number of does that can be shot. They make their own rules outside of even the states rules, and deep down some of these old guys lived through the years where I think they really thought it was a sin to shoot a doe. What is funny about those old guys is that I don't ever see them kill many of thedeer they are talking about producing.

I don't think that the problem here is a lack of big (antlered)bucks.

Frank, you know this country in East Texas. I have always said that the big older bucks are here, it is just easier for them to hide because of the thick piney thickets we have.When you do finally catch up to one of them theyremind me of dark antlered ghost. They are like the'old men of the forest.'What better way to get these big guys out of the thickets and on the move than to reduce the number of estrous does inhisarea.

C. Davis

RE: New Texas 'Spread' laws...
 

Our lease only allows one doe per lease. Some members have two leases so get two does.
I've seen about 4 does to every buck this season. That's pretty typical. Most bucks I've seen are spikes or very small 4 or six pointers. 1 1/2 year old deer.

I'm not really against the new regulations but having lived under stricter ones for nineyears nowI haven't seen where it helps the harvest.
I think my lease should open up and control more by killing does but we're on the LAMPS program and can only kill what they give us, one permit per membership.
I put my doe in the freezer this past weekend. Shoulda done it sooner I suppose but I like to hold out till after the second rut in Dec.