Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

I can't decide. I hunt Deer and Spike-only Elk and I'm on the fence between the two. My rifle is a 7mm Rem. Mag (150g Bal. tip or 160g Part.) and wife's is a .270 Win. (140g either).

We've used Balistic Tips for a few deer and one cow Elk and they worked fine. I switched to Partitions last season but neither of got an animal last year with them.

I know the Bal. tips will expend all their energy on the animal and the partition will stay in one piece and likely go through the animal. We deer hunt in thicker woods so I would like the deer to stop within about 50 yards of the shot. Where we hunt Elk there are a lot of other hunters so if we shoot a Spike Elk (only legal animal) I want it to drop on the spot.

What would be the best bullet to really anchor these animals and make sure they don't get away. I'm not too worried about a ton of meat damage as we usually shoot for the heart or both lungs. Will the partition through both lungs drop either animal on the spot or should we expect some tracking? Would the Balistic tip into both lungs be the quickest kill? I know they work just fine for the deer we shoot and since a spike bull isn't much bigger it should work about as well right?

Power
http://www.powerandfury.net/hunt.html

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

BT will work fine. On elk I would maybe look to a bullet with less expansion...they maybe spikes, but they have a lot tougher hide and bone structure than wt's. Especially the wife's 270, I would suggest going with a part, failsafe, etc. in that gun. The 7 has more umf, but still when elk is on the menu, I would probably lean againist the BT's.

As far as dropping them on the spot, I am not sure that can be clearly indicated. Except if you take out the spine. They all seem to react differently and go varing length...that being said with 130 gr BT out of my 270 most bucks have dropped within 75 yards..provided the the boiler room was messed up. Elk I have never dropped one on the spot, but never had them go more than 300.

I say shoot what is best in the gun and gives you confidence in the 7mm. The 270 for elk, I would stay away from BT's.

Good luck to you both!

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

The only thing I have ever used rifle-wise on deer is cor-loks, it knocks them flat, pinky hole in, fist size hole out. I shoot 150 grain cor-loks, the last buck I double lunged was knocked flat, he didn't even kick. Both of his lungs were mush! I am not knocking other rounds, just sharing my experience.

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Thanks Skeeter. You seem to be here a lot with good info. It's appreciated.

I hear what you're saying about Elk being a tougher critter. I think you're right about the wifes' gun. Problem is she doesn't shoot that much so I need a bullet she can have success with even if bullet placement isn't the best. Last deer she shot was a rear-single lung and liver shot (too far back). The Bal. tip blew up pretty good and that deer went about 100 yards after the shot. With a Partition I think it would have got away. I know she needs to shoot more but you tell her that ;) She loved hunting with me, bless her soul, but I wish she would practice more and work toward being a better shot.

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Power I am no expert, but thanks!

I think your right on the last deer shot, due to expansion bone or bullet frags can find home to the vitals causing a more lethal blow on a poorer shot. Howvever had this shot been forward I think a part. would have had a better results. So really 1/2 dozen of one. For deer BT's are the stuff, IMHO. Elk, I have no real experience, I have always went with a solider, less expanding type bullet..so I can't say yes or no. You have the experience, so go with it. The key with any bullet is try to put it home! My experience also has lead me to believe the BT type bullet will put the spins on an animal quicker than a part out of 270...I think it is due to the shock is higher with a large gapping hole in the exit side...big hole lots of trauma and lots of blood.

As I suggested, shoot what will make you and her confident. Limit the range and wait for the better shot window if required. I now guys who use Seirra's for everything and think they are the cats....personally I would say the BT will out perform a Seirra any day of the week...but far from me to tell them that!

If the head is thinking won't...chances are good you'll have a bad result. Mind over matter sort of speak. You seem to know the situation and been around the block a few times, trust yourself.

Does your wife's gun not like certain bullets? Will she care that is different from your's or what she used prior?

I am assuming you do the testing and decide on the bullet...she shoots a few to refresh and hunts. Correct? I do the same for a couple buddies, the only time they ask questions, &quot;is why 30 bucks a box, it use to be 20&quot;....prices increase nature of the biz. (none the wiser<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>)

I ain't going to tell your wife anything, I get enough of my own<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Good luck, I am sure whatever you choose will be fine.



Edited by - Skeeter 7mm on 09/25/2002 15:02:39

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Does your wife's gun not like certain bullets? Will she care that is different from your's or what she used prior?

I ain't going to tell your wife anything, I get enough of my own<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

LOL! Ya, I do all the work and she just basically shows up and shoots the deer out from under me <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Her deer in 2000 was only about 50 yards away but she got buck fever and had to make the shot off hand.

http://www.powerandfury.net/images/n00deer2.jpg

She did a good job and made an adequate shot to harvest the deer so I can't complain too much but I do believe it would be better to have her practice more. I'll see if I can convince her. She doesn't know or care about guns/bullets any more than she needs to. I tried to explain the difference in bullets last night while reloading and her eyes got all glazed over.. Guess we'll just do what we have to. She's been pretty lucky up to this point but someday she might make a poor shot and lose the animal and that will be tragic for all involved. Her rifle doesn't care what I stuff through it, it shoots 1&quot; groups at 100 no matter what (with a 4x scope none-the-less).

I want to shoot the Partition since I think it would be a better bullet in the long haul but I want the quickest death for the animal too.

Hey Tazman, I like the Cor-Lok bullets too but I'm not sure you can buy the bullets for handloading. Have you heard anything about the new Cor-Lok Ultras? Can you buy just the bullets anywhere? Thanks for the input BTW.

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Power,

You can buy SPCL bullets for reloading. Cabela's sell them & probably local shops as well. Not sure about the new ultra's?

If her gun shoots it all, what about Failsafe's? That's what I used out of my 270 for Elk, 2 years ago...a nice bull went down in 100 yards. Biggest knock on them is can't get them to group. If you can a 140GR failsafe will do the trick on both deer and elk!

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

I agree with most of what has been said above, and I'll add my $.02. I've shot 8 elk with a .270, 7 fell to the 150 gr. partition, and one to the 140 gr. fail safe. All fell with in 100 yrds., only one needed another round. The fail safe was the only bullet that completely passed through, including going through the far shoulder on a 1/4ing away shot. I recovered all of the partitions, and they do retain weight very well. I beleive the fail safe may lack in expansion rate, meaning I think they are almost too hard of a bullet, and just don't expand enough, hence the complete pass through. I don't think ya can go wrong with the partitions, and try to keep from shooting over about 200 yrds. with the .270 and it will do the job, or at least it has done several jobs for me. Good Luck!

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Power, I've used Ballistic Silvertips (Winchester's slightly different version of the Ballistic Tip) and Fail Safes on deer. The Fail Safe deer ran about 35 to 40 yards in rather thick cover after being hit. Upon field dressing, I saw that the bullet had taken out both pulmonary veins going back into the heart, as well as the left atrium. Not bad. Exit wound wasn't anything large--around .55 caliber.

The Ballistic Silvertip deer . . . well, one dropped on the spot--I broke that deer's neck--and the other one had an exit wound that was about an inch wide, and three to four inches long. That one actually ran about 25 yards or so. I destroyed both lungs of that one, and I could see blood pouring out of it as it ran away. I figure that the BST hitting it was akin to firing a grenade into the deer.

I'm staying with the BSTs, and at least two members of my camp use BTs that are handloaded for them. BTs tend to leave a better blood trail.

For elk . . . you got me swinging at that pitch. Never hunted them.

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

power
if your concerned with how far an elk is going to go place the bullet a little farther forward in the front shoulder. you damage a pound of meat but the animal drops in its tracks. i have shot 10 elk to date three with a bow(in the lungs not the shoulder) 1 with a 7mm(did not like the gun sold it) 6 with my 270(150 grain nosler part.)
i found the shoulder to be the best place. i shot one in the lungs 3by rag horn (i hit high in the lungs) and the animal went about 200 yards if it wasnt for my hunting partener i wouldnt even know i hit the thing there was no flinch and when we went to the point where he was shot there was no blood it wasnt until 50 or so yards that we found the blood trail.
so after that experience i shoot them in the shoulder no chase no question no long tracking.

i would go with PARTS for elk the 85% bullet retention result in alot more knock down power
just my 2cents

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Thanks for all the replies.

After talking with the wife last night and reading your experiences I think I'll keep shooting the partitions, at least for the wife's .270. For my 7mm....well, I went to the range last night and the balistic tips shoot much better than the partitions (.75&quot; vs 1 3/8&quot; groups). However, the idea of shooting an elk in the shoulder with a partition might be the best medicine like JJT mentioned. I guess I should have included that in this message about shot placement. I'm still trying to decide what's the best place for that too.

Sounds like I'll get enough expansion with the partition to just use those for deer and elk. Don't want to mess around shooting 2 different loads so I think I'll work toward just shooting partitions. As far as shot placement I'll just have to play that by ear and take each shot as it's presented. Wife and I argued a little last night about her shooting (or lack thereof) but we settled with her stating that she usually won't shoot over 200 yards anyway and as long as she only takes shots she is certain about then I think that is where we'll have to stand on that one.

Power
http://www.powerandfury.net/hunt.html

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RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

My experience with the Ballistic Tips have been good until last year. I had been shooting a .300 Win Mag all my hunting life and had excellent results with them. I used to reload them about 10 years ago (or maybe longer) before they were available in premium commercial loads. Last year I bought a .260 Remington because the .300 was way too much gun for these small whitetails we have here. If you don't know anything about the ballistics of a .260 it is just slightly less velocity and energy than a .270, so it is plenty of gun for whitetail. Anyway, I shot 3 deer with it last year.....I only recovered 2. I was not getting an exit would at all. the bullet was fragmenting inside the deer. justrecently I read an article by Craig Boddington on the BT's, and it confirmed my findings. Basically it said that the smaller caliber (less than .30 caliber) BT's are great for varmints since they have a thin jacket designed for rapid, violent expansion. .30 cal and above has a thicker jacket to aid in penetration, but by no means is to be put into the same class as the Partition as a penetrating round.

For the Elk, I think I'd have to go Partition minimum and seriously consider the Fail Safe, especially in the .270. You are correct though, on the range the BT's will shoot consistently better groups than the other 2. But since you really have to make the 1st shot count, I wouldn't let that be a huge concern.

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Thanks guys. I see what you're saying. I think I have some reloading to do and some bench time coming up. I guess I better start developing a load that is accurate with either a Partition or Failsafe.

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

I have taken several deer and elk with both ballistic tips and partitions.On deer I have used the 100gr ballistic tip and 100gr partition in my 257wby and the 140 gr ballistic tip and 140 gr partition in my 7mmstw; and on deer,bighorn and pronghorn the ballistic tip is by far the quickest killer.Not one animal has made it fifty yards after being shot with a ballistic tip and most drop on the spot.They often run 50 to 100 yards or more when a partition is used.On elk and moose I have used the 100gr partition out of the 257wby the 140 gr partition out of the 7mmstw,the 200gr partition out of the 8mm rem mag and the 180gr ballistic tip out of my 300 ultramag.All have worked well but only the ballistic tip has repeatedly dropped elk and moose on the spot.I have not however used ballistic tips out of the 257wby or stw on elk or moose as ballistic tips are not as tough in the smaller calibers and I am not sure they would deliver adequate penetration on the larger animals.

Edited by - stubblejumper on 09/26/2002 19:11:40

Edited by - stubblejumper on 09/26/2002 19:12:16

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RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Cool. Good information you two. Greg, sounds like you and I are about the same, I bought my 7mm in '95 too but I've only harvested 3 animals with it, all deer in totally different conditions (actually first was with wife's .270) so I am glad to get your experiences. I think you're right in I've heard and read that the sub-30 cal. balistic tips are thinner skinned and blow up more. I did harvest one of my deer with one and the heart was totally destroyed and the deer fell so fast I lost it behind a small pine it was standing by. I had to run to the spot expecting the deer to bolt but it was already dead by the time I got to it.

Do you lose much meat shooting through the shoulder? I've always though that would be the best place to anchor an animal but would hesitate unless it was necessary.

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Power -there is no need to shoot a deer through the shoulders.I use only lung shots and the deer I kill drop quicker than those shot by most other people because of the bullets I use and the velocities they are travelling.I would not worry about the 7mm ballistic tips blowing up on deer at close range as I have taken several 300lb plus deer with this bullet with a muzzle velocity of 3500 fps.If they do not blow up on deer this large at this velocity it is very unlikely they will fail on any deer at 7mm mag velocities.

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Thanks Stubblejumper. You think a partition would work just as well with a double-lung shot?

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

power-My own experiences is that deer often run up to 50 or 100 yards or more when lung shot with partitions.The seldom run at all when lung shot with ballistic tips especially when bullet velocities are very high.

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RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Here's a thought power, I am sure you tried this but maybe not!

SJ or others, for S&G's tried some Hornady 154Gr SST, with the same nylon tip as BT. They group identical as my 150 Gr Noslers but 2&quot; higher at 100. (a little suprised??????) My gunsmith who reloads for me says they are much the same as Noslers, except they are bonded and thus don't come unglued as quickly as BT's. I have used BT's with good results, one poor...but I also like to plink and tink...so I thought what the heck.

Anyway to my questions. What are your thoughts on this bullet type? Should I stick with BT's? 7MM Mag is the gun and quarry is Whitetails. My groups like I said don't favor either, tightest they ever been. Why would you think the 154GR SST would be 2&quot; higher and bang on vs. a 150GR BT (bang on but 2&quot; lower)? So it's not a matter of picking the most accurate load anymore, like the BT's were always the ones that grouped best. I want the best performance at the game end now and call on your guys experience?

Many thanks.

Power, let us know how you and your wife make out!

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

The sst's were supposed to be a tougher version of the ballistic tip but recent bullet tests have shown that this is all hype from hornady.In reality they have shown to behave almost identically to ballistic tips and in the shooting times bullet test they actually retained less weight than the ballistic tip.

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Whatever you decide to use I would take a good look at the 140 or 130gr Partition before i would use the Ballistic Tips.

Why work when you can hunt???? Heck why work at all!!

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Friends and myself have had some poor performance with the ballistic tips. I doubt you could find one in our camp this year.

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Explain what poor experience or why no BT's, please? What type of gun? Range? Where do you aim? What do you use now? Etc.

Personally we have taken loads of game with BT's and never had a problem that could be traced back to the bullet failing. Shooter, yes (myself included).

I just would like some details thats it!

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RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Greg, I would not expect them to preform like a Part.

When they hit heavy bone, where do most guys aim? From many discussions and reading post here..it is the H/L region.

Where does heavy bone come into play if this is your POI?

If your aiming at the shoulder, well then you are setting yourself up for bullet failure! It is not the prefered shot on any game, you want to put in the boiler room...mess it up and you got a quick, clean...dead animal!

BT's work to a T for this if the shot is placed in boiler room and yes they blow up...but that is what they are suppose to do (so not a failure). Energy transfer, shock and massive trauma that deer is going down...but quick.

If you want a pinky in and a thumb out hole...don't shoot BT's and such. But if you want a bullet tpo put the spins on a deer sized animal, with a H/L shot..BT type bullets will deliver. I guess what I am saying is bullets are made to do certain things, blow up, retain, etc. Pick the bullet that will give you the result you want...a poor shot is never bullet failure...it is shooter failure!

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RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

I guess that's the big question then, where to hit them. I know deer fall pretty easy if you take out their lungs/heart area, no question. I wonder how Elk react to a good hit in that same area. I've read and heard they will tend to run further than you'd think even when hit in their kill zone.

2 weeks until I'm deer hunting, WHOOHOO! I'll let you know what happens if we are blessed with opportunity.

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

I just found some Sciroccos at a local store for around $50/100, which is comparrable to the price I pay for partitions. I think I'm going to get them and try them this season. Anyone have a link to a recipe for reloading for them please?

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RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Bill, first off welcome.

I do however have to point a few things I do not agree with in your post. First off Deflection will occur with any bullet! In fact it is documented the large flat based bullets in fact are worse at this then the BT type bullets. Not saying a partition is lumped into this as it is flat based but very sleak in profile...yet still will deflect. In other worlds their is &quot;NO SUCH THING AS BUSH BEATERS&quot;. As far a wind drift, a BT will drift a lot less than a part. that is one of the reason for this style bullet, long range shots.

Yes a short range shot will yeild much damage out of the 7MM but none the less it will perform as intended and drop the deer but quick. I wouldn't reccomend this type bullet for anything bigger than deer, unless you are absolutely possitive you can hit the lungs and it is a least a 7mm.

I personally love this style bullet for Deer and would never load it for a ELK or Moose hunt. I also personally think a part. is over kill for deer, but it will perform and especially if you take shoulder shots.

I think it really boils down to your personal experiences, situation and maybe even who you hunt with or even talk to in your respective areas. I have seen all bullets do some wierd thing, I have also seen them all do their job remarkably. The often stated rule, is put the bullet where it has to be and you'll get the result you desire. For me I am the most confident on deer where my shots can range from 50 - 300 with a boatail bullet type. Why? B/C I know they will get there and I can shot the can out of them...so why put an extra element into an already complex situation.

My last 2 cents!!

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

I'm hoping the Scirocco can be a &quot;Do-both&quot; bullet for me. If I only hunted deer I would use the Bal. tip as it does just what I want. However, since Elk are part of the picture I want a bullet that has a little more strength.

Anyone have first-hand experience with the Scirocco?

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Well, shooting the Scirocco yesterday wasn't as gleeful as I'd hoped. My rifle is acting up again and my 100 yard groups are 2+&quot;. The good news is all the different loads I shot yesterday grouped 2-3&quot; at 200 yards.

Pretty windy today so I might not hit the range today. This week sometime though. I'm going to try some shots at 300 and hope they stay under 4&quot;.

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RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Bill, sorry...fair enough!!!

Power, don't feel bad was at the range last and had a new load go haywire at 200...it happens. Hope she straightens out for you!

Good Luck:)

RE: Bal. tip or Patition for Deer
 

Well, got to try the Scirocco for my deer this year;

http://www.powerandfury.net/j02deer.html

There is a link at the bottom that goes to pictures of the effect of the bullet on the deer. Somewhat gory so don't look if you don't want to see it.

I now think the Scirocco is too much bullet for deer. I'm starting to think the Partition might be the best all-around bullet for deer and elk. I'm going to get some 175g and see how they shoot.