zophy

I deer hunt more than I duck hunt, but I usually squeeze in a duck hunt a year. The question I have is I have a 12 guage I use to duck hunt. I was giving a Ducks Unlimited 20 guage shotgun for fathers day. Can you use a 20 guage to duck hunt????

johnch

YES

You will have to limmit your range a little
Like waiting for the ducks to get 30-35 yds out as a max

Also if you plan on hunting Gaint Canadin Geese
The bigist shot I could find for me and the kid was #2 steel
#2 will work in close ...............but
So unless they are close , we shoot Remington HD #4

For ducks we shoot 3" 7/8 oz of #3 at 1500 fps

John

johnch

Double post

John

GordonGekko

get some hevi shot number 6's and you can wear them out...number 6's give more pattern density and have plenty of penetration to shoot a duck at 40 yards.... with steel the pattern gets thinner with larger steel shot, but no 3's or 4's will do the job on ducks over the decoys....

Colorado Luckydog

The best shot I've ever hunted with, uses a 20 gauge only. You'll be fine with a 20. He also uses his 20 gauge on geese also, and he's still the best shot I've ever seen. I prefer a 12, but I wouldn't knock no one for using a 20.

A5Mag12

I shoot a 20 quite often. The best 20 gauge load I've ever shot are Hevi Shot 2 3/4" 1 oz. #7 1/2 shot. It will flat out stone any size duck out to 50 yards. The new 3" Fasteel loads do a good job as well as long as you remember you are shooting steel.

SwampCollie

Just so long as its the REAL hevi-shot!

They are selling this Hevi-shot "Duck" junk now that is little more than over priced hevi-steel.

If Remington is loading Wingmaster in 20 gauge loads... its worth the extra coin. If you can find any cheap Kent Tungsten Matrix, its as good as lead, just non-toxic and approved for use.

I shoot a 20 gauge in the timber for ducks... farthest shot I'll have is probably not 30 yards and I shoot them with the gear down. I shoot it very well, perhaps because I take my time more. My fiancee shoots a Beretta 390 20 gauge all the time, and she shot quite a few ducks and geese with it last year. She shoots some of the older Rem loaded Hevi-shot, backed up with Kent fast-steel #2s.

GordonGekko

Swampcollie, it sounds like you've got a little experience with the Hevi-shot. Have you measured the "duck" loads yourself? If so how did the density compare to Lead or Hevi-Steel? I only shoot the Hevi-Shot goose loads and found them to be the real deal, and I'm pretty sure they load 20ga "goose" loads.

Also, don't overlook hevi-steel, I'm pretty sure they load it in 20ga. While my experience wasn't that great it was due to a poor pattern from my gun, if it will pattern well for you then it is good stuff.

On a side note, we actually have a small guage only timber hunt every year. You can only hunt a double gun 20 guage or smaller on the hunt. I shoot a 28ga with Bismuth and it will shock folks how effective those loads are on a duck, you just don't have as much margin for error.

SwampCollie

Let me take a deep deep breath because this is going to get long.....

If I had the technology to accurately measure them I would have done it just to see for myself.

The reason the whole thing peaked my interest is because my family and I have been shooting hevi-shot since before Remington even started loading it in the late 1990s. If I recall, it got federal approval sometime around 1994-95, and Remington started with it around 1999. We used to use NOTHING but 2 3/4" 1 1/4 of #6s. We would load them as our first shell, and then back up with two steel loads (we thought it was ridiculous back then when it was $8-10/box ). I shot ducks close, ducks far, ducks ridiculously too far, geese near, geese far, and even over the years took two swans using #6 hevi out of a 2 3/4" shell. That said, when I bought two cases of Hevi-Duck in summer of 2006, (at dealer discount pricing thank God) I thought I was getting more of the same. Only thing is that in all those years of shooting over 50 and as many as 120 ducks and geese per season, I can seldom remember EVER having to shoot a cripple when we dropped a duck with the first shell. And keep in mind that those numbers were JUST MINE.... and my father, grandfather and our other two good hunting partners and thats a whole mess of ducks and maybe one out of every 30 or so needed a second dose just to be safe.

Back in those days, we didn't have a dog. And I remember one season when I broke 100 birds sitting down to dinner with everyone and toasting the fact that we had not lost a single bird that entire season NOT ONE! I gotDutch in early 2006... so his first season and hevi-ducks first season in my gun was the 06-07 duck season.

When I started shooting hevi-duck.... the results we were getting changed drastically. Not only were birds hitting the water with their heads up, I actually lost a couple birds that year (even with the dog, who is damn good to boot), and we had almost every other bird go down alive and we werehaving to sluce them. It reminded me of steel....because lets be honest here, no matter how great anyone thinks they can shoot, you are lying to yourself if you have really ever shot ducks with lead, real hevi-shot or any of the other high densitys, and then say that steel kills "just as good". Sure dead is dead... but thats like saying a dull knife cuts as good as a sharp one.... sure the end result is two pieces of steak instead of just one.... but when you slap ducks dead in the air at 40 yards for years on end, then have to start shooting almost every duck again at 30 yards... come 'on now!

So in wake of that I read a couple of independent studies and articles done on the types of non-tox on the market.... and after several phone calls and three or four emails.. I finally got Environmetal to honestly tell me that the per pellet density of Hevi-shot "duck" is not what the per pellet density of Hevi-shot was. They guarded it like a matter of national security... and if you ask me, its really a fine piece of marketing slight of hand that cost me about $450 dollars. I'm still sitting on about half a case of the crap.

When Remington stopped loading Hevi-shot, and Environmetal took back over, they changed the lines from just hevi-shot to hevi-shot duck and hevi-shot goose (Hevi-steel came out in 2004 I believe). I was working at a gun shop in Charleston, SC and we set up a direct account with them and I remember being on speakerphone with a lady in Oregon, and my boss and I and another duck hunter that worked there talked through some questions and then we placed an order for well over 100 cases of various loads in various lengths.

One of the things I asked them, was what the difference with duck and goose was. She started saying how they had marketed it for different types of hunters because duck hunters typically want faster lighter payloads..... I cut her off and said something along the lines of..."Just like Remington did, but putting a goose on the larger shot, heavier payload and a duck on the smaller shot lighter payload." Her response was "Yes, thats the same idea."

And oh if only that was the case.....

Here are the real numbers as best I remember them, and forgive me because I know I left a few out that I simply have no idea where they fall (such as NICE shot): Density is measured in grams/Cubic Centimeter (g/cc):


Bismuth: 7.6g/cc (that one I'm not sure about, but I know its right at/around the same density as steel.... only its soft like lead is).
Cheap Steel: varies depending onwho you believebut is generally around 7.6-7.8 g/cc
Steel (High Antimony "Premium" or "Supreme"):7.9g/cc
Hevi-Steel: 9.3g/cc
Hevi-shot "duck" (apparently the new "classic doubles" is around this number as well): 9.6g/cc
Lead: 10.8g/cc (Pure lead is 11g/cc, but there are always traces of other metals in the lead we use in shotgun shells to help it keep its form as best as possible)
Kent Tungsten Matrix: 11g/cc
Hevi-shot (original and now "Goose"):12g/cc (rem wingmaster and Win High Density are the same density)
Hevi-13: 13g/cc (hence the 13)
Federal Heavy Weight:15g/cc
Tungsten Super Shot: 18g/cc


Now, that said, Hevi-shot goose is the REAL DEAL. It is exactly the same as what we all used to know collectively as "Hevi-shot," its the same stuff Remington loaded for several years. It seems to me that the first 20 gauge loads (2006 and even some in 2007) that Environmetal loaded in 20 gauge were infact Hevi-shot goose.... and the packaging had both a duck and a goose on it...which is why if you shoot a 20 or shot one then, you may not notice a difference in performance compared to the old Rem loaded hevi-shot. Now, Wingmaster is a softer, rounder version of hevi-shot, only its loaded in a watertight, premium shell rather than the Cheddite "Rust-o-matic" hulls that Environmetal is using.

This has gone on too damn long and I appologise for carrying on like a money in a tree. Let me get down to the final point here.....

The reason I'm so adamant about folks NOT using hevi-shot duck is that I feel Environmetal has deceived the consumer. Looking at their boxes and reading everything, I don't think they have done anything criminal, but they are relying on the success and name of hevi-shot that Remington built up for them/with them, in order to hock a product that is NOT the same as it once was. When asked about it, they often send out a mass produced email that does not specifically say it is a different mix of metals, and therefore not as dense.

What REALLY gets me mad, is that they sell it for at least (and often more) $22/box (average, 3.5" are way more), while they sell the hevi-goose for often just a few dollars more at $24-25/box. Hevi-duck is really less than .5g/cc more dense than hevi-steel.... yet it sells for around $2.20/shell. Hevi-steel (which is better than steel and what I shoot out of my 12 bore guns primarily now...I think they are finally going to offer it in 20 gauge for 2008), sells for $30/box, but its a box of 25 rather than 10.... so it comes out to $1.20/shell. Thats a $3 difference everytime you empty the gun.... So I encourage people to either shoot hevi-steel or spend the extra dough for hevi-goose or wingmaster.

Truth be known, I'm still looking for something relatively affordable and comparable because I don't want to give anymore of my money to a company who I think has broken a better business practice.

Rant off.... again sorry it went on so long [:@]

SwampCollie

To expound on my already beaten to dead post, I surfed over to hevi-shot.com and did a little adding and subtracting to try and make sure I have remembered all the numbers right... here is what I found that I wasn't 100% on....

1) Hevi-steel is giong to offered in the 20 gauge now.

2) Based on the slight of hand marketing environmetal uses, and knowing what I do about Hevi-shot duck vs Hevi-shot goose..... they are offering "Hevi-shot Waterfowl 20" which I can only assume is real hevi-shot goose since they included a goose on the package and anything else could actually be constituted as illegal (at least from my understanding of things). However, they do list a 20 gauge offering under both the duck and goose sub-pages on their sight.... the goose sub page would not load... so I wasn't able to see if the product ID code is the same for both (meaning that its the same product in both places... which to me would mean it contains real/true 12g/cc hevi-shot).

3) They list "Classic Doubles" as 26% more dense than steel. If you give steel the benefit of the average and assume the steel they are comparing is 7.8g/cc.... multiply that by 1.26 and you get 9.8g/cc..... which is right around or slightly more dense than Hevi-shot Duck.

4) Hevi-steel is listed as 20% more dense than steel... using that same figure as above.....7.8 multiplied by 1.20 gives us 9.36 or 9.4g/cc. How they figure that it is "44% more lethal than steel" is beyond me when in the heading above they list it as 20% more dense?

Here is a quote directly from their FAQ section (which they have finally updated.. even up to last year they still listed Remington as their only loader....)

*Please note how the "Density" sub-topic is quickly skirted... and that they list only "Hevi-shot" and do not specify whether it is duck or goose... I am assuming that it is "goose" they are using, as this is what was known to all of us as "Hevi-shot":



They go on to say that perfectly round pellets do not have the ballistic or aerodynamic advantages that their pellets have... they compare them to rifle bullets and airplanes.... I'm not an aerospace engineer.... so I'll make no judgemetns.... but I can make comparisons and clearly see how I think they are spinning some of this information... why is it then, for so long.... that all these major ammunition makers have gone to painstaking lengths to ensure that their pellets are uniformly round? Why bother if there is not an advantage? Sure I'll buy that a jagged pellet will cause a larger wound channel.... but you can't tell me that a lopsided golf ball is going to fly like a Titleist Pro V1. I remember shooting rocks out of a slingshot as a kid and having a bitch of a time hitting anything because they curved like a pitch I only dreamed of ever throwing.... but taking some real slingshot ammo or glass marbles.... I could shoot bottles at 20 yards and hit 4 out of 5 times. I just don't buy it!

Here is that part of the FAQ:


Finally, they expound on the "real reason" for buffer.... while for years folks and ammo makers used it to help keep shot pellets round... they claim its another reason.... it also completely flips the rationale behind choke tubes and pattern density on its head. I always thought that the force of the oncoming wall of air was what caused a pattern to spread out... that combined with pellets that were not uniformly round.... who knew!

I just have all sorts of buzzers in my business ethics chamber of my brain going off here..... I'm not saying they are full of it or outright lying or even directly misleading folks... but it seems to me that they are picking and choosing exactly which facts to disclose.... I don't think a company should have to tell us their secrets to manufacture or even their metalurgical mixes.... its a competitive advantage that they have played to gain a foothold in the market... its the basic of economy and free commerce... but just like how many calories per serving on the back of the serial box (and even they list the ingredients) they really ought to make these folks disclose the differences in their products.... how else is anyone going to know what they are really buying?