SwampCollie

When I emailed them I asked them directly and I got a cookie cutter and paste general email with information that is basically the same as was on their website.

If they weren't trying to keep it a secret... they'd post the density on their website.

Alsatian

A5Mag12: Just for the record, then, what was the specification of shot density used in manufacturing Hevi-Shot Duck that Environ-Metal's email recited in their email to you? And is there some other publically available source of the information that is validated by Environ-Metal? I ask this later from point of view of providing this information to some mouthpieces that may have gotten the information wrong -- like American Hunter magazine and the Cabela's web site.

Colorado Luckydog

Works better for geese than any steel that I've shot before. A lot of other hunters feel the same. For the money it's worth it all day. I didn't use it a lot on ducks to say for sure, but on geese it's the best I've ever used, besides Bismuth.

Alsatian

Black cloud is "just steel" in terms of its material. Black cloud is different, however, in some other significant aspects of the total shotshell. First, some of the pellets (40%) are a special shape that is said to aide in penetrating and/or causing more severe wounds to game. Second, a special shot cup keeps the shot packet together longer after exiting the barrel, adding an additional 15 yards of range. One report I read said that the pattern was very tight. How effective this shotshell is, I cannot say. But while it is "just steel" it claims some design innovations that may provide performance advantages over other steel shotshells.

I think it is very interesting how the federal ban on lead shot has been such a disruptive event and has, in some cases, led to substantially improved shotshell technology. For example, HEAVIER than lead pellets. Different pellet shapes that may pattern better than lead pellets. Special shotcups. Mixing different pellets -- 60% spherical pellets, 40% special "cutter" pellets -- in a shot charge. High velocity shotshells, I think, may be said to have been stimulated by efforts to try to overcome some of the limitations of steel.

"Booooooo" on Environ-metal, however, for not being forthright about the cheapening of the Hevi-Shot tungsten recipe for the Hevi-shot Duck shotshells. Why not just maintain the standard and price it accordingly?Makes me reluctant to pay a premium for a superior material which might not be so superior as I have been conditioned to expect.

SwampCollie

The flitestopper pellets do infact leave larger wound channels. I have seen that first hand. I did a write up in my field journal on it back in September. Ironically it was on early geese too. All I got was #4s... worked great up close. Steel #4s are no goose load. Later in the season, I found it to be murder on tight decoying ducks, and total havoc on teal.

Click on the link in my sig if you want to read the article. We shot a pile of honkers.

A5Mag12

The email talked about the new duck load that would be lighter than the original Hevi-Shot that was still going to be available as the goose load. That this was a move to keep cost down but still have a shell that would be closer to lead than steel in performance. The duck load runs 9.7gm/cc and plated lead right at 10.5 gm/cc.

SwampCollie

Boy they dropped the ball on that one... the price difference is like $2/box. Thats the direct wholesale price!

Colorado Luckydog

Alsatian, and Swampcollie, we sure appreciate your post and responses to post! Keep 'em coming, your info helps a lot of new hunters, and some of us ol' hunters!

Alsatian

MZloader98:

To respond to your original reply, now better informed with more information, no, I don't think Hevi-Shot Duck loads are worth it. I have recently paid $20.69/box of 10 for 2 3/4" #6 and $22.49/box of 10 for 3" #4 Hevi-Shot Duck shotgun shells. Based on what I've heard about the density of these shot pellets I would be better off going with Hevi-Steel at a significant cost savings. Additionally, given the duplicitousness of Environ-metal in this matter, I might be inclined to just stay away from their products entirely, look around at some other products such as the "BlackCloud" product discussed briefly above or maybe take a look at the Winchester and Remington high density tungsten matrix offerings. I would be interested in seeing how the Winchester and Remington high density loads pattern. I have often read that Hevi-Shot patterns very well, though to date I have not patterned these loads in my shotgun.

I've looked at the Hevi-Shot goose loads, and I don't remember what the low end is on the shot size. I think where I hunt I can use high density #6 shot to advantage in early season, over decoys. It may be that as the season goes on and ducks are more reluctant to come in close I may be better served by stepping up to high density #4, and maybe Hevi-Shot goose is available in 3" #4 loads, I'll have to investigate that prospect.

mustad

No. I don't think they are worth the extra money. Weight and density alone will not improve kill shots. You're still dealing with the same problem you do with steel, that is very hard metal traveling very fast. If you want to improve your odds of providing a kill shot, you need a softer metal that will cause more damage. Bismuth is a great material for this, but they did not gain market acceptance.

Hevi-shot does the same thing as steel except at further distance. Practice shooting more is the only way to increase kill shots.