16 GAUGE WHO LOVES IT?
03-05-2002, 10:24 AM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 33
RE: 16 GAUGE WHO LOVES IT?
Mr. 16 gauge.
I want you to tell me exactly what is balony about what I posted.
There are many 12's on the market less than 7LB. As a matter of fact, Beretta makes one that is less than 6lb. In the book "Shotgunning An Art and a Science" written by one of the greatest shots of all time, Bob Brister, he states the 12 2 3/4 1 1/4 ounce load is the most efficient best patterening load there is. Is he full of balony too???
I want you to tell me exactly what is balony about what I posted.
There are many 12's on the market less than 7LB. As a matter of fact, Beretta makes one that is less than 6lb. In the book "Shotgunning An Art and a Science" written by one of the greatest shots of all time, Bob Brister, he states the 12 2 3/4 1 1/4 ounce load is the most efficient best patterening load there is. Is he full of balony too???
03-05-2002, 11:25 AM
#23
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Troy MI
Posts: 44
RE: 16 GAUGE WHO LOVES IT?
Nate;
In a word, what Brister has written (if indeed he wrote that) is crap, IMHO. It you beleive everything that is written down, I have a few bridges I would like to sell you, and I even have proof that they are mine; I have the deeds written down, in my own handwriting!
If you follow shotgunning at all, you will see a lot of reference to the "square load", i.e. a load that is basically as high as it is in diameter. These are suppose to be the most "efficient". These are (per gauge) 1 1/8 oz-12 gauge; 1 oz 16 gauge, and 7/8 oz-20 guage. Anything else (heavier), and you get longer shot strings, which won't necessarily show up on a patterning board. Patterning is important, but it is not the whole story, the length of the shot string also comes into play. This is why people who say a 3" 20 gauge shooting 1 1/4 oz of shot is the same as a 12 gauge shooting 1 1/4 oz of shot are mistaken; the shot string is longer with the 20, so most of the shot is wasted on a moving target. Also, all shotguns are different: some wont pattern larger shot, some won't pattern small, some do better with brand X ammunition, ect. To say that a certain load, in ANY gauge, patterns better than any other, is akin to saying "the .30-06 is the most accurate rifle". It may very well be A very accruate rifle, but to say it is the end all being of accuracy will get a few folks who shoot the .308, .243, ect up in arms.
For efficiency, the 1oz load out of a 16 gauge is difficult to beat when coupled with the light weight of the guns themselves. Shooting heavy shot charges out of a light 12 bore is akin to shooting a .458 out of light sporter...it's going to hurt like hell, you'll increase your flinch, and you chances of hitting targets greatly decreases and becomes less fun. I offer a challenge to you: take your favorite shotgun, what ever gauge, and fire 10 test patterns with it and see what you get. Use a variety of loads and when you are done, have 3-4 of your friends fire the same load(s) out of thier shotguns, and see if the get the same thing....it can be a real eye opener, esp. when the term choke is used; you would be surprised at how many guns stamp "modified choke" are throwing IC or more open patterns!
My original comment was meant in a teasing manner; I apologize if you took it as an affront. But the original question was: "what is wrong with the 16?". And the answer is...nothing; it works great in a gun designed for the gauge. To then come in and claim that the 12 2 3/4" patterns better (which is a shell length, not a load) was a lttle brash & cocky, IMO. Pick up a good 16 gauge and try it, you might be pleasantly surprised.
In a word, what Brister has written (if indeed he wrote that) is crap, IMHO. It you beleive everything that is written down, I have a few bridges I would like to sell you, and I even have proof that they are mine; I have the deeds written down, in my own handwriting!
If you follow shotgunning at all, you will see a lot of reference to the "square load", i.e. a load that is basically as high as it is in diameter. These are suppose to be the most "efficient". These are (per gauge) 1 1/8 oz-12 gauge; 1 oz 16 gauge, and 7/8 oz-20 guage. Anything else (heavier), and you get longer shot strings, which won't necessarily show up on a patterning board. Patterning is important, but it is not the whole story, the length of the shot string also comes into play. This is why people who say a 3" 20 gauge shooting 1 1/4 oz of shot is the same as a 12 gauge shooting 1 1/4 oz of shot are mistaken; the shot string is longer with the 20, so most of the shot is wasted on a moving target. Also, all shotguns are different: some wont pattern larger shot, some won't pattern small, some do better with brand X ammunition, ect. To say that a certain load, in ANY gauge, patterns better than any other, is akin to saying "the .30-06 is the most accurate rifle". It may very well be A very accruate rifle, but to say it is the end all being of accuracy will get a few folks who shoot the .308, .243, ect up in arms.
For efficiency, the 1oz load out of a 16 gauge is difficult to beat when coupled with the light weight of the guns themselves. Shooting heavy shot charges out of a light 12 bore is akin to shooting a .458 out of light sporter...it's going to hurt like hell, you'll increase your flinch, and you chances of hitting targets greatly decreases and becomes less fun. I offer a challenge to you: take your favorite shotgun, what ever gauge, and fire 10 test patterns with it and see what you get. Use a variety of loads and when you are done, have 3-4 of your friends fire the same load(s) out of thier shotguns, and see if the get the same thing....it can be a real eye opener, esp. when the term choke is used; you would be surprised at how many guns stamp "modified choke" are throwing IC or more open patterns!
My original comment was meant in a teasing manner; I apologize if you took it as an affront. But the original question was: "what is wrong with the 16?". And the answer is...nothing; it works great in a gun designed for the gauge. To then come in and claim that the 12 2 3/4" patterns better (which is a shell length, not a load) was a lttle brash & cocky, IMO. Pick up a good 16 gauge and try it, you might be pleasantly surprised.
03-07-2002, 07:14 AM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 33
RE: 16 GAUGE WHO LOVES IT?
Mr. 16
If you want to call hours upon hours of meticulas testing of almost all gauge and load combinations "crap" you are entitled to your opinion. Of course I disagree. The tests were conducted on stationary and moving targets to take shot string into account. Results of the test- 12,s dominate. Why? It goes back to efficiency and good patterning. The 12 1/8 or 1/4 either is a very balanced combo. True the 16 1oz may be balanced as well but you ar throwing more pellets with the 1/8 or 1/4. More pellets = better chance you are hitting what you aim at. Your comment about heavier loads having more shot string does not apply to the 12 1/8 1/4 because the combination is balanced in terms of legnth and with of shot column relative to bore diameter. The pellet deformation percentage is as low or lower than other gauge load combination (especially the smaller gauges). Although the 28 is very close.
I currently shoot with a 12 that weighs 6#7oz and it does not "kick like hell" with the 1/8 or 1/4 loads. The felt recoil is more of course, but the increased pattern density more than makes up for it.
I'm sure you are an A-1 shot with your 16, and there are many fine hunters who also enjoy the smaller gauges. Nothing wrong with that. But when money is on the line in tournament or other forms of compitition the smaller gauges collect dust and the 12's are used. What better time to point this out when someone asks "what's wrong with the 16"?
If you want to call hours upon hours of meticulas testing of almost all gauge and load combinations "crap" you are entitled to your opinion. Of course I disagree. The tests were conducted on stationary and moving targets to take shot string into account. Results of the test- 12,s dominate. Why? It goes back to efficiency and good patterning. The 12 1/8 or 1/4 either is a very balanced combo. True the 16 1oz may be balanced as well but you ar throwing more pellets with the 1/8 or 1/4. More pellets = better chance you are hitting what you aim at. Your comment about heavier loads having more shot string does not apply to the 12 1/8 1/4 because the combination is balanced in terms of legnth and with of shot column relative to bore diameter. The pellet deformation percentage is as low or lower than other gauge load combination (especially the smaller gauges). Although the 28 is very close.
I currently shoot with a 12 that weighs 6#7oz and it does not "kick like hell" with the 1/8 or 1/4 loads. The felt recoil is more of course, but the increased pattern density more than makes up for it.
I'm sure you are an A-1 shot with your 16, and there are many fine hunters who also enjoy the smaller gauges. Nothing wrong with that. But when money is on the line in tournament or other forms of compitition the smaller gauges collect dust and the 12's are used. What better time to point this out when someone asks "what's wrong with the 16"?
03-07-2002, 05:30 PM
#25
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Troy MI
Posts: 44
RE: 16 GAUGE WHO LOVES IT?
Nate;
first off, I don't "shoot for money", and never will...same as most folk here. Secondly, I hit my targets just fine, thank you, and I don't like the taste of lead shot, steel shot, bismuth shot, or any other shot for that matter. If you want to talk pattern density and nothing more, then the 10 gauge triumphs over the 12 hands down....ask any turkey hunter. As for "hours and hours" of meticulous testing; I can show you years and years of meticulous medical testing that has turned out to be crap.
In closing, if you already had a closed mind, why did you bother wasting my time if you don't even want to consider my answer. You didn't even consider anything I said in my post...just "pattern density" and nothing more. My 16's pattern just fine. Have a good day.
first off, I don't "shoot for money", and never will...same as most folk here. Secondly, I hit my targets just fine, thank you, and I don't like the taste of lead shot, steel shot, bismuth shot, or any other shot for that matter. If you want to talk pattern density and nothing more, then the 10 gauge triumphs over the 12 hands down....ask any turkey hunter. As for "hours and hours" of meticulous testing; I can show you years and years of meticulous medical testing that has turned out to be crap.
In closing, if you already had a closed mind, why did you bother wasting my time if you don't even want to consider my answer. You didn't even consider anything I said in my post...just "pattern density" and nothing more. My 16's pattern just fine. Have a good day.
03-09-2002, 10:39 PM
#26
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cropsey IL USA
Posts: 365
RE: 16 GAUGE WHO LOVES IT?
as mr. 16 ga. said my years of testing show the 16 kills what i shoot at just as dead as a 12 they are a joy to carry and no matter the load gun combo they don't seem to hurt you as much as a 12.
The 16 for years has been judged by many people who are supposed to know what they are talking about as the most perfict upland gun in the field the key is upland the wide variety of birds considered upland game birds usually hunted with dog the 16 is perfict but it boils down to personal preferance it's not the fault of those of us that appreciate the qualities of the 16 that some choose to try and belittle it because they don't know any better or have never tried it they go on what others have told them to those people i say try it before you knock it i think your attitude would change if not it's your loss
The 16 for years has been judged by many people who are supposed to know what they are talking about as the most perfict upland gun in the field the key is upland the wide variety of birds considered upland game birds usually hunted with dog the 16 is perfict but it boils down to personal preferance it's not the fault of those of us that appreciate the qualities of the 16 that some choose to try and belittle it because they don't know any better or have never tried it they go on what others have told them to those people i say try it before you knock it i think your attitude would change if not it's your loss
03-12-2002, 10:20 AM
#27
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 33
RE: 16 GAUGE WHO LOVES IT?
Hoss,
Again, when someone asks "what's wrong with the 16" it is not "belittleing" to comment that through many hours of pattern testing it was determined that the 12 is easier to hit with. Ya know what else is wrong with the 16? They are overpriced.
Again, when someone asks "what's wrong with the 16" it is not "belittleing" to comment that through many hours of pattern testing it was determined that the 12 is easier to hit with. Ya know what else is wrong with the 16? They are overpriced.
