Differences in North American and European grouse hunting
 

Hello everybody.

been thinking for a while the differences in the ways how we who live this side of the pond (more accurately Finland and other nordic countries) hunt the upland birds compared to our fellows in North America.

Most notable difference seems to be that North Americans don't seem to use rifles for grouse hunting. I explain: at autumn grouse congregates, and when weather gets colder they tend to rise up to the trees early in the morning for a rest after eating and get get some safety from the predators. normally you can see them on the edges of the openings. So what you do is you sneak somewhere where you have a good spot to shoot. Do you do this in North America and if not, why? Is the birds behavior so different in there? Just to clarify we mostly hunt black grouse and capercaillie this way.

And question 2: Do you hunt upland birds with a spitz? Spitz first drives the bird up to the tree and then marks and distracts the bird with its barking while hunter sneaks closer for a shot with a shotgun if the forest is dense or with a rifle if he/she has the view for it?

We up here seem to use much bigger caliber rifles for these too, I have for example .308 which I use for a upland birds. With a right bullet it works good for anything from black grouse to moose. Just need to be sure is nothing behind the bird for 3 kms. Which is not really a broblen in here because Finland is one big forest anyway.:)

I can't speak for anyone else here, however, I would never shoot a grouse on the roost unless I was starving and needed to eat. Grouse in my part of the world are pretty much considered the king of upland game birds and are generally hunted with pointing dogs although they can be and are walked up. I am speaking about ruffed grouse, we do have other kinds of grouse in the US but not in the eastern part of the US. Most of the excitement of grouse hunting for many of us is watching the dogs work. In Canada they drive around shooting grouse out of the windows of vehicles, they do it in Maine as well but it is not legal in Maine. Many times the way animals are hunted is contingent on the habitat they live in and what is considered acceptable and or legal. I am not knocking you for the way you unt, just answering your question. When in Rome, do as the Romans sounds apropriate here. Nice to see a Scandinavian here.

I understand your point, it might sound a bit unfair, but it is far from being easy. First of all black grouse is highly intelligent and cautious bird, they will see you from long distances so you rarely get very close to shoot. so at first you have to be a decent shooter. AND shooting at the wild is quite different business then shooting on the track. I get 1 inch holes at 150 meters in ideal conditions at track with my rifle on a good day so way under MOA but in the forest it is whole different business. Better not to shoot if you are not sure that you can hit.

Grouse, and even more the capercaillie are higly valued in here too but suppose they are more common or less hunters hunting them, so populations tend to get fairly large in many years if nesting and winter have been good. The hunting season is very short too, mainly because over-hunting in the southern finland where the populations are getting smaller. not that problem here in the east, but the season is only 8 weeks.

Hunting from any vehicle is against the law in here but sometimes hear people doing it. Though when other hunters hear about that it is informed to the law or dealed inside the community itself. That kind of behavior is nottolerated and brings a bad rep on all of us.

Pointers are used sometimes, I have one myself (he is a mongrel though, so bit too interested of hares too). Also one difference I have noticed to other european countries is that here scandinavia hunting is more of a solitary business atleast when hunting upland birds, whereas they hunt in parties in UK and middle-Europe. Might be wrong in this but that the picture I have. Hope somebody correct me if I am wrong.

Like Oldtmr said, shooting grouse out of the roost, or ground swatting are frowned upon here. Ruffed grouse are the most common near me as well. By October they are pretty smart and a blast to hunt. We call them pats.

I've been out west, and up north to hunt other types. Blue, Sharptailed, Spruce, and Ptarmigan. But Ruffs are my favorite. I use a pointing dog mostly, but will take my Lurcher out on occasion.

I've always admired Spitz, or Laika type dogs, and would love to hunt moose, or bear with one.

Welcome to the Forum!

That is interesting little difference, is there some particular reason why is it so? As I said in here it is complete normal and acceptable way of hunt.

Suppose that the sociological and historical reasons might be the biggest issue in this case. It is not that far ago when for many Finns Hunting was a necessity, not a sport or a hobby. The war took it's toll so still in the fifties and maybe even sixties in some remote areas the people were so poor that they had to take what nature gives. not to mention before the war! So we have very strong traditions with hunting for need, not for sport like many european countries where agriculture have been strong for thousands of years and hunting was for upper class of society. Of course U.S. had the same for centuries but there industrialization occurred in late 19th century if I am correct so long before us.

I used to live in California for a little while some years ago, shame i didn't do any hunting, only some fishing. especially the sierra nevada was the kind of place i would like to go back some day for some birds. Good trout rivers too.

We did some mountain hare hunting with my friends laika last autumn, great dogs for that! very resilient. won't come out from the woods without something to chase. can be quite nerve-wrecking though to wait for hours on end for your dog to come back if there is nothing. We mostly use the spitz and laikas for marking and stopping the bear or a moose, not for chase.

I've shot a lot of grouse with a .22 in my native CO. I often still hunt them in the same areas I hunt mulies and elk in. This gives me the opportunity to practice stalking, scout the area and also work on my shooting. The head or neck of a grouse is a pretty small target at 40 yards or so.

I took these birds last fall:

I know many people that shot grouse on the ground or in trees with rifles or shotguns. It doesn't matter to me. Had a cousin in the state of Washington that hunted blue grouse with a 410 tc contender handgun and shot most of them out of trees. Also see your avatar picture is of the tikka 512. I have two of the valmet 412 one 12/223 and one 12/12.

You're probably right about various influences. We had an early history of hunters shooting game for the market. While it kept people fed, it decimated our wild game populations. So, most of our laws are for regulating sport hunting as opposed to subsistence hunting. It's a crime here to sell game. But in rural areas where people are hard pressed a lot of poaching goes on as they work to put meat on their table.

I also once lived in Northern California. Like you I never hunted, just worked. A horrible existence.

I hope you share more of your hunting adventures.

I quite liked the northern California. Not a big city person but San Francisco was a decent city. Well I met my wife there so might be one reason why I have fond memories of the place.

How does the practical side of permits work in there? is there some state-owned land that you can buy a permit? In here that's the thing if you or your friends don't own a land or you are not in some hunting organization or just for a change. Would like to go back for a holiday some day soon and maybe include some outdoor activities.

Yeah can imagine hitting a bird in the head or neck with .22 must be hard, never seen it done or even tried. partly because .22s (lr) are forbidden in hunting in here. well it is not that simple actually so lets just say mostly forbidden. And local birds generally don't let you come that close either, or if they will, they are so well hidden that you wont be able to see them before they take off.

That shotgun is actually tikka m77 on top, m77k in the middle and I think m07 on the bottom. Not completely sure but they predates 512s which (at least later versions) are made in italy. I have the m77 for grouse and capercaillie, great shotgun! 12/70 is perfect for upland birds but sometimes wish that it would have interchangeable chokes, pattern tends to be quite tight even with the 1/2 in mine. I trust in Tikka quality, especially the older ones. I also have Tikka m65 sporter in .308 which predates beretta ownership AND sako ownership. At the time it was manufactured sako and tikka were direct competitors so quality had to be pretty high to fight sako. best rifle tikka ever made. The new tikka t3 is not a bad rifle and exellent price/quality ratio but it still is just a shade of what tikka rifles used to be.

I also bought remington 870 which is a good gun but not for grouse.

That brings a question to my head: What kind of shotguns do you use for grouse in north America? I suppose O/U is the most popular in there too? 12ga or 20ga? 12ga is definitely the one we prefer, rarely see any other but availability must be much better there.

Yes the tikka m77 predates the 512 but is basically the same as the valmet 412. My great uncle had a ithaca made by tikka that was a model 77 tikka with the ithaca name on it. It was in 12/222, yes wish they had srew in chokes but my valmet chokes are really tight the 12/12 has a modified and full that are more closely to a full and extra full and the 12/223 is a improved modified. All the grouse I have killed has been with my remington 870. As I don't have a dog I just walk and jump them up. Haven't killed a lot of them haven't seen a lot in the last couple of years. The one person that I know that do a lot of grouse and other upland hunting uses a valmet 412 in 12/12 and also he uses other Beretta over and unders mainly in 12 ga.

Yeah I heard they imported Tikkas as ithacas for a some time. Valmet is not a bad shotgun either, for some reason I just prefer Tikkas. Both are surprisingly expensive still at least in here. Mine has full and modified also, seem to be quite basic configuration but same here, more like full and extra full. m77 is a great gun though.

I have a friend who hunts everything from grouse to deer with his really worn out 870 and with much better success than me. at the end of the day it is not about the gun, it's the shooter anyway.

ArttuJ, public lands are open to hunting as well as other outdoor activities. Some states have a lottery often called a draw for certain tags. Others may be purchased "over the counter". In some areas you can get permission to hunt on somebody's land simply by asking. This often works for me. Others lease the land for the season, or for a week or two.

ATB

Although I live in Canada, our upland hunting sounds almost the same as my fellow hunters south of the border.
The only rifle we are allowed to use is a .22. Other than that shotgun and archery (in my province) is allowed, using all gauges and types of actions. We hunt over pointers and flushers most of the time while some do not use dogs at all. Most birds are shot on the wing while some are shot from trees or on the ground but this too is frowned upon.
We hunt both private and public land with 90% of our province being public with mostly open country while the top half is Boreal forest.
I usually hunt with four others as we make a full day of it and we enjoy the comradery .
Welcome to the forums.

Ron

The older guy who taught me to hunt here in Central Germany took me Dove hunting. We go to set up next to a stand of old pine trees in the middle of farm lands. I check the wind and find me a spot near the forest edge facing outwards looking over the fields. He walks up to me and asked what I'm doing and said I'm waiting for a Dove to fly into the roost or leave to feed.

He laughed and said follow me, we light footed it through the trees, hiding and skulking until we spotted a bird in a tree. Those birds knew what the game was, hide and seek and were generally better at it than we were. I really think I would have bagged more birds doing it my way.

We usually take Pheasant or Grouse in a mass hunt, along with Rabbits, Hares, Fox and occasional Boar. Either a kettle hunt or a line hunt. Maybe 30 hunters, 20 dogs and twenty beaters. If it is organized well and everybody knows what they are doing it is a fun hunt. We may hunt one area once every three years this way. The hunt is controlled with a hunters horn, with certain signals blown. It can be dangerous with 50 people and twenty dogs in a relatively small area, shooting at moving targets. You really have to know what you are doing.

Sometimes we line hunt with fewer hunters and dogs, mostly for Pheasant.

We do something roughly like your line hunt in Northern Michigan (UP). Shooting grouse, woodcock, and Snowshoe hare's. For Dove in Texas, we used to sit out in sunflower fields or water holes at dusk. That was a lot of fun.

ATB

I really enjoy Dove hunting. I own a piece of undeveloped property in So. Cal. between where the Dove feed, an aqueduct and where they roost. They cross my property 3-4 times in their daily routine. There is a saddle between two small hills and a couple of trees at the bottom of the slope for shade. Depending on how the wind is blowing they come through that saddle like a rocket. Dove are tasty.

Things have gone downhill lately. Everybody and there brother has a dirt bike or an ATV, the area used to be scrub desert, now anything that tries to grow gets flattened. A major city/county nearby incorporated what used to be a small farming town into the County and the County has a shooting and hunting ban on the books. Now I just pick up the trash and think about the old days. I'm technically in the County now.

Maybe they ought to have a season on dirt bikers. :)

The trouble with hunting them around here (in my area of Germany) is there are no defined flyways, food is in every direction and water is abundant. Setting up near a roost in the late afternoon is the only way to wing shoot.

Back in So. Cal I also really enjoy Jack Rabbit hunting with dogs. Scrub desert with plots of irrigated cattle feed and veggies. Hunt next to the Alfalfa fields and you see a lot of Rabbits. These aren't your typical scrawny Jack Rabbits, these Rabbits eat well and are plump. We walk through in a line abreast kicking the scattered brush piles, while the dogs worry the brush piles to our left and right. Works best when it is just getting hot before noon, when the Hares are looking to bunker down in the shade for the day. Few things on the planet can bob and weave quit like a Jack Rabbit does, you have to be quick. You have to have good dogs you can keep close and under control.