Pitbulls for Upland Birds?
05-08-2012, 05:12 AM
#21
Typical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 860
Pits come in many shapes and sizes from nearly boxer size (little more stout) to monstrous dogs (easily 150lbs and 36" at the shoulder). I can envision a small pit being able to outrun and out endure a traditional gun dog breed - if the owner of the gun dog don't exercise the dog enough. But that is dependent on the individual dog. Like people, athleticism is dependent upon exercise.
I would question the desire. Take a random pit and a random (traditional) bird dog breed. Both never exposed to birds. Let both be trained by two equally professional dog trainers (like Smith brothers, Duffy's, etc.) - one on one with no other influence from other dogs. For the gun dog, how much time would it take from complete novice to finished gun dog vs. the same for the pit? Then take into account how long each trainer spends upon which aspect of training.
Now, consider the failure rate for each if both trainers trained a hundred random dogs (gun dog vs pit).
A simple Gedanken experiment (thought experiment) would be less failures for the gun dog breed but it shows how much is bred into the breed.
My setter is a wuss; She doesn't like dogs who are the same size or larger to sniff or approach her. Especially larger dogs. She immediately comes to me for protection. During hunting season, everything changes. She complete ignores strange dogs and other hunters. I've seen her bowl over another dog because it was in her way. This is the level I would personally expect for any hunting dog, pit or otherwise. Anything less and I would not commit my limited resources and time (a huge portion of my money is going into saving for extending the upcoming season which I would not commit to if I didn't have my setter - normal season is two months which I would be happy with.)
I would question the desire. Take a random pit and a random (traditional) bird dog breed. Both never exposed to birds. Let both be trained by two equally professional dog trainers (like Smith brothers, Duffy's, etc.) - one on one with no other influence from other dogs. For the gun dog, how much time would it take from complete novice to finished gun dog vs. the same for the pit? Then take into account how long each trainer spends upon which aspect of training.
Now, consider the failure rate for each if both trainers trained a hundred random dogs (gun dog vs pit).
A simple Gedanken experiment (thought experiment) would be less failures for the gun dog breed but it shows how much is bred into the breed.
My setter is a wuss; She doesn't like dogs who are the same size or larger to sniff or approach her. Especially larger dogs. She immediately comes to me for protection. During hunting season, everything changes. She complete ignores strange dogs and other hunters. I've seen her bowl over another dog because it was in her way. This is the level I would personally expect for any hunting dog, pit or otherwise. Anything less and I would not commit my limited resources and time (a huge portion of my money is going into saving for extending the upcoming season which I would not commit to if I didn't have my setter - normal season is two months which I would be happy with.)
08-28-2012, 06:28 AM
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rifle, Colorado
Posts: 2,012
I don't know much about Pits, but I can tell you from my own experience that other breds can be "adequate" for bird hunting. My german shepard went most places with me. I took him pheasant hunting with me here in Colorado while my buddies gave me a hard time about it. He was a really well behave dog, and would do just about anything I asked of him. The first few times he was just a extra body to walk the field, My buddy would call him and he would walk to him, then I would call him back and he would zig zag his way through a field between us. That in itself was a help.
After the first few times of him going with us I bought some pheasant scent and would put it on his toys when we would play. The second year we took him he got what was going on. He would flush a pheasant, hunt down wounded birds, and run up do dead birds. He would not pick up birds, he would just sit by them and bark till someone picked it up. He would take off chasing rabbits sometimes, but all I had to do was call him and he would stop and come back.
I"m not saying my German Shepard was a awesome birder by any means. We hunted over the years with a GSP and a few labs of friends and their dogs did a much better job. Our dogs always got along well, there were never any issues. My dog would hunt all day, he had no quit in him.
After the first few times of him going with us I bought some pheasant scent and would put it on his toys when we would play. The second year we took him he got what was going on. He would flush a pheasant, hunt down wounded birds, and run up do dead birds. He would not pick up birds, he would just sit by them and bark till someone picked it up. He would take off chasing rabbits sometimes, but all I had to do was call him and he would stop and come back.
I"m not saying my German Shepard was a awesome birder by any means. We hunted over the years with a GSP and a few labs of friends and their dogs did a much better job. Our dogs always got along well, there were never any issues. My dog would hunt all day, he had no quit in him.
08-30-2012, 07:11 AM
#24
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
It was said a pit can't run like a bird dog. Mine sure can we hike the mountains everyday, and he never gets tired from running.
If I was a bird hunter i'm sure I could train him to do it. He's very smart, and really wants to please me. He also has no interest in fighting other dogs unless they start it. He loves all people.
He's my 5th pit, and the best of the bunch.
If I was a bird hunter i'm sure I could train him to do it. He's very smart, and really wants to please me. He also has no interest in fighting other dogs unless they start it. He loves all people.
He's my 5th pit, and the best of the bunch.
09-07-2012, 03:48 AM
#25
Spike
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1
You would save yourself a lot of headaches and your daughters dog a lot of scolding if you just let the dog be what it is and purchase a Bird dog for yourself. Bird dogs are bred, not made. Were the Pit's parents and grandparents bird dogs? If not then throw a stick for the dog in the backyard and enjoy the retrieve and companionship.
11-14-2017, 07:02 AM
#26
Spike
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1
far from expert
Recently lost my springer of 15 years. though we hunted more casually in her later years, Trixie was incredible partner and many more established bird hunters envied her close hunting, patience & near telepathic communications with me. regardless - woods, thicket, fields preserves, back bays, ocean, ponds - duck, grouse, woodcock or pheasant she was always ready, and a better hunter than I was a shot. I did not make a trixie a great hunter, she wanted to please. I swore I would never get another dog after losing her. Did not plan on a new dog until time healed the wounds of trix.
along came Cooper a pointer pit mix that was very sick coming from a shelter in GA. This six month old had pneumonia via untreated kennel cough near death., and my friends cousins runs a rescue and was collecting $ for his medical care. I donated & drove him to Animal Hospital, 2 months later with slightly better but weighed half what he should have. I fostered then adopted him. I took on the cooper with no plan of him being a bird dog. Now at 11 months he has a prey drive & a great nose. While he is very timid with people but non aggressive, he is great with every dog even those aggressive towards him. He is obedient and has tagged along on hunts. He was not disruptive and is gradually getting it. So as always patience & luck of the draw has a lot to do with it. So get if you have an obedient non aggressive dog - get some dummies & scent - a friend or two with well trained dogs willing to be patient and have at it. keep your expectations low, but strive for fun. I find dogs learn best from working with better dogs, if their owners are OK with it.- Trixie's best trainer was our neighbors black lab Cole ( one of the most versatile pointing labs I have ever had the pleasure to hunt over)
aside from Cooper losing focus chasing a rabbit or squirrel on occasion - he is finding well hidden scented dummies and bringing them to hand, his mouth is surprisingly gently- so will be a world class gun dog. no. will we get out in the woods or field and have fun. yep - fortunately there is a great Spedie BBQ near my weekend camp & we do not have rely on our hunting skills to eat just yet.
along came Cooper a pointer pit mix that was very sick coming from a shelter in GA. This six month old had pneumonia via untreated kennel cough near death., and my friends cousins runs a rescue and was collecting $ for his medical care. I donated & drove him to Animal Hospital, 2 months later with slightly better but weighed half what he should have. I fostered then adopted him. I took on the cooper with no plan of him being a bird dog. Now at 11 months he has a prey drive & a great nose. While he is very timid with people but non aggressive, he is great with every dog even those aggressive towards him. He is obedient and has tagged along on hunts. He was not disruptive and is gradually getting it. So as always patience & luck of the draw has a lot to do with it. So get if you have an obedient non aggressive dog - get some dummies & scent - a friend or two with well trained dogs willing to be patient and have at it. keep your expectations low, but strive for fun. I find dogs learn best from working with better dogs, if their owners are OK with it.- Trixie's best trainer was our neighbors black lab Cole ( one of the most versatile pointing labs I have ever had the pleasure to hunt over)
aside from Cooper losing focus chasing a rabbit or squirrel on occasion - he is finding well hidden scented dummies and bringing them to hand, his mouth is surprisingly gently- so will be a world class gun dog. no. will we get out in the woods or field and have fun. yep - fortunately there is a great Spedie BBQ near my weekend camp & we do not have rely on our hunting skills to eat just yet.
Last edited by Perfpsi; 11-14-2017 at 07:14 AM. Reason: typo
11-14-2017, 07:17 AM
#27
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: south eastern PA
Posts: 15,429
I wouldn't try it. I would be too concerned that if you run into other hunters with dogs and the dogs get close the Pit will attack them. There is a reason their hunting breeds of dogs with generations of breeding to to refine the bird hunting instinct. The instincts bred into pit bulls is not to hunt birds. I would also like to know how much experience red yote has hunting over bird dogs & training birds dogs for hunting.
Last edited by Oldtimr; 11-14-2017 at 07:21 AM.
11-14-2017, 08:07 AM
#28
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Germany/Calif.
Posts: 2,664
Been my experience most of the conflict starts with the retrievers. Most of the fights I've seen is a retriever trying to take game away from the first Dog on the kill. I'm not a Dog snob, if the dog will do the job I put them to work.
The trick is to spot their natural inclinations, foster those and even to modify (adapt) your hunt to your Dogs strong points. Basically, instead of trying for a cookie cutter Dog, you adapt.
Pure breeds make the job a lot easier, my last pointer/gun Dog did his pointing duties naturally and needed no real training at all.
I Hunt the heck out of Pheasant with my two Terriers. We have a lot of hedge rows between cultivated fields. My Terriers do an outstanding job of flushing Pheasant out of those hedge rows. They get into spots the pointers and retrievers can't. They've flushed many birds the other dogs have bypassed or gave up on.
But if your Dog is naturally aggressive, good luck. Very few ways to cure that completely and reliably. My Plummer Terrier takes no guff at all from other Dogs, he is less likely to go off on another dog on a hunt away from home, but when he does it is a mess. He latches on a refuses to let go, I keep a strong stick in my pocket to pry his jaws open.
The trick is to spot their natural inclinations, foster those and even to modify (adapt) your hunt to your Dogs strong points. Basically, instead of trying for a cookie cutter Dog, you adapt.
Pure breeds make the job a lot easier, my last pointer/gun Dog did his pointing duties naturally and needed no real training at all.
I Hunt the heck out of Pheasant with my two Terriers. We have a lot of hedge rows between cultivated fields. My Terriers do an outstanding job of flushing Pheasant out of those hedge rows. They get into spots the pointers and retrievers can't. They've flushed many birds the other dogs have bypassed or gave up on.
But if your Dog is naturally aggressive, good luck. Very few ways to cure that completely and reliably. My Plummer Terrier takes no guff at all from other Dogs, he is less likely to go off on another dog on a hunt away from home, but when he does it is a mess. He latches on a refuses to let go, I keep a strong stick in my pocket to pry his jaws open.
Last edited by MudderChuck; 11-14-2017 at 08:51 AM.
09-24-2018, 11:29 AM
#30
Spike
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 1
Reggie
Go for it! Don't expect them to make a good retriever (very hard mouth), but their prey drive is great! I've been hunting mine for four years now and often out hunts my GWP. They make great hip dogs and do a damn good job tracking both wing and fur. For anyone thinking about hunting them in the snow, dog boots are a must! I use the same boots that sled dogs use to protect his feet and make sure they have a jacket for when the weather drops below freezing (darn short hair dogs)
Last edited by kerrsed1; 09-24-2018 at 11:40 AM.