CHUKARBUSTER

WELL BL, WEVE HAD THIS TOPIC BEFORE, AND YOU ARE SO RIGHT YOU CAN HUNT CHUKARS WITH ANY OL LAB, HELL SHOT OVER 350 ON THE OREGON SLOPE LAST YEAR, I THINK I KNOW THE GUY WITH THE YELLOW SUPER LAB, I SEE HIM AND HIS DOG, HE IS THE ONE WITH THE DOG WALK BEHIND HIM, BUT ONE HELL OF A RETRIEVER. SO BL YOUR GOING TO STATE FOR FACT YOU LET YOUR LAB RUN FOR 3 HOURS AT 50 PLUS YARDS,(IN FRONT), AND FLUSH BIRDS????
THERE WILL BE 12 OF US IN YOUR NECK OF THE WOODS, TO DO SOME SERIOUS DAMAGE TO YOUR MT QUAIL, AND RUFFS.

seattlesetters

I' ve seen one of my setters hold point on a covey of chukars pinned against the rimrock for 45 minutes. We were 800 yards away and across canyon when he went on, so I' m glad he held long enough for us to bag a couple.

LKing

Somehwere the logic on this thread has completely gone astray. Seattle, that' s fantastic that your setter can hold a point that long, but where in this thread was it stated that a lab WOULD or WAS SUPPOSED to hold a point that long? I highly doubt that the original author of this topic wished for it to become a hurling of insults, threats, or a " my dog is better than your dog" conversation. I have hunted with labs, gordons, gsp' s, brittanies, and springers, and each has had their own positives and negatives. I am now about to enter the world of the pointing lab.

seattlesetters

LKing - No insult intended. The post said " best bird dog" and labs are not bird dogs. They are retrievers, meant to sit in a blind or walk at heel or sit in a boat or ride in a wagon and retrieve mostly waterfowl on command on both land or in water.

They are wildly popular, however, and enterprising breeders have taught them to work like a flusher in the uplands (although the Springer Spaniel is far superior), and now to " point," or, more accurately, to pause for a few seconds before flushing the bird, all in the effort to make more money while the popularity lasts.

I have hunted my Setters and other Setters and Pointers belonging to friends with so-called " pointing" labs that were of the " best breeding." The labs never found a bird while the bird dogs were on the ground (the bird dogs found plenty), and the only time the labs ever got to even smell a bird is when one of them spotted one of the Setters on point about a quarter of a mile in front of him and decided to investigate, chose not to honor point, and busted the big covey of huns just before we got into shooting range. In fact, when the " pointing" labs were on the ground by themselves, their handlers walked up and flushed as many birds (one covey) as the dogs found and produced for the gun. And this after the dogs had been through the area about 50 yards ahead of the handlers!

The bottom line with all field dogs throughout history (see the American Cocker Spaniel) is that when someone starts breeding them to be something they are not or for something they were never meant to do, it signals the beginning of the end for the breed as a viable worker. It will take a while for this to happen to labs, obviously, but the blood is already being diluted every day. I mean, like in the case of the German Shorthair, how long will it take before some less-than-honorable breeder, in a quest for a better " pointing" lab, decides to cross one of his bitches to a Pointer or Setter, then one of those offspring back to a lab in order to " improve" the breed? It has probably already happened.

Hopefully, lab purists will step up to the plate and create some form of registry, like the American Field FDSB, that will assure the survival of the working Labrador Retriever.

bspittman

Seattlesetter, I couldn' t aggree with you more. Since when did a lab become a bird dog. If I' m wrong let me know, but i thought labs were supposed to sit next to you until you send them to bring something back?? I understand they have been taught to point, but it' s not a point like a pointer. They stope for a few seconds and then flush up the birds. You can teach any dog to do that.

You' re right LKing....this thread wasn' t started to argue over wether or not a lab could be used to hunt chukars. It was started to get everyone' s opinion on the Best Birdog?? Labs aren' t bird dogs in my book.

LKing

Seattle,

Thanks for the biased input. For every non-hunting lab story you may provide, I could be right there with a rebuttle. My point once again you prove, the thread discusses the " best bird dog" and yet you point out many experiences with the " worst" bird dogs" !??? Never once will you hear or did you hear me say that a lab (be it of pointing stock or not) will keep up with the pointers and setters. I believe that they will point and find birds first for the simple reason that they are getting to the birds first. If you run faster than your neighbor, chances are you will find the prize first...simple logic! Much too depends on the species being pursued and the topography in which one covers. Your comparison is of " apples and oranges" and I wonder how a fair comparison between labs and pointers can be made on the home turf of the pointer in which you describe???

Two more quick points:
1) It' s unfortunate that you' ve never seen a quality pointing lab.
2) I really believe you must consider a lab as a birddog due to the number of people using them in the uplands right now. Take a look at GUNDOG magazine for instance, and tell the millions of hunters using them on chuckars, grouse, woodcock, quail, pheasant, etc... that they are not a birddog.???

I would have to agree with your point on the thinning of breeds, however.

CHUKARBUSTER

LKING, my point was not to knock labs, and i have seen many, in the field. i dont know were you are located, but were we are at labs will hunt chukars, but they wear down so fast due to the open dry ground they need to cover. i guess if the hunter is happy walking up birds, and having the lab retieve, more power to them.
im glad to see you are as proud as you are, of your choice of breed, and ill be the first to admit i would send a gsp in freezing cold water on ducks or geese, nor would try and run a lab in warm dry several hour chukar hunt, or a az quail hunt!
every breed has its place!

shoot me an e mail and ill try and dig thur some photos of chukar ground, and you be the judge.

LKing

Chukar,

I couldn' t agree with you more! I would never, NEVER argue that the lab is the best hunter out there. I really believe, as I stated earlier, that it is all about what you are there to pursue. I live in north-central Wisconsin, so a big running dog for me is completely useless. I DO NOT believe that the best birddog is a lab, no way. I really don' t believe that a nice english pointer or setter can be beat in the field! But for me, in big timber and with as much waterfowling as I do, labs are very nice. My original point was simply to state that we can' t make this a " my dog versus your dog" and that it is unjust to attempt to compare a lab with an english setter.

CHUKARBUSTER

WELL ENOUGH SAID!!!! JUST TOOK A SHORT DRIVE FROM THE HOUSE WITH SOME NICE PHOTOS OF CHUKAR HUNTING SPOTS, SO IF YOU WANT THEM E-MAIL ME AT [email protected]

RANDY

Hunters Edge

LKing you wrote It is more than that. If a dog runs or quarters 30yrds to either side your covering a 60yrd swath if your using a pointer it depends their are some field trial lines but just pointers used for foot hunters is running 100 to 200 yards on either side so I will use the smallest 100 yrds on either side cuts a swath of 200yrds looking for birds. In most hunts you would come back next to the area or off a bit so a lab or flushing breed is 120 yrd and 400yrds for pointers and this is using the smaller number and assuming the labs stamina/run has not diminished, it is not just that they get there first but that they cover more ground in there search for game, which makes them more effective.

Now a retriever was bred to retrieve, a pointer was bred to point and a continental breed was bred to do it all. What chukkarbuster comment on the GSP for cold water retrieves is incorrect, especially with the use of a neoprene vest but even with out them they are effective in late season but even vests in late season is used on labs, chessies etc..

Also concerning the lab as a flusher or a pointer they usually do not have the stamina for the long haul day in day out hunting and if it is warm they loose gas quick. Can they be used for upland of course but so can mutts if all your doing is running up game but the thread was about (Best Birddog). It was not the best birddog you ever owned but your opinion of a breed, this can be taken by the original post which the member stated leaning toward the GSP' s. In any breed there are exceptions to the rule but what is the rule is what should be looked at. A retreiver is a retreiver, a pointer is a pointer do not confuse the two seperate characteristics of both. Now there are strong points for each but there are weakness' s as well. I am and do not think chukarbuster and others are bashing a breed just does not see how they are even close to being as effective and a far cry from (Best) which was the threads exact wording. Again everyone has there opinion but in my opinion I can not honestly see where the lab can even be considered the BEST. They can and often are a well rounded jack of all trades master of none, except retreiving if properly trained, but that was why they crossed certain breeds to have labs (retreivers).