RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Chuck7 wrote:
Many 75 year old folks are on medication and probably aren't thinking so sharply. Usually time will help this situation ...I just think dealing with some folks you need to have a little more patience..You can 't use the same tactics in dealing with everyone..not if your the least bit interested in people's lives.
C7
I agree with you to a point. To argue with an elderly gentleman for 15 min. is not right. He should have been in handcuffs long before that. You wont argue with a P.O. that long. If they argued for that long why did the elderly man even be allowed to have a firearm in his hands. Most officers wont argue with you period. They diffuse the situation with a quickness. Im a law abiding citizen and would never argue with a warden or any official of the law. I read one place where it said the officer retreated. Why didn't he get out of there and call for help? Why did the elderly man wait 15 minutes before he pulled his firearm,which he should have never done?I'm not saying who was right or wrong cause I don't know. The experts will sort it out. I bet the warden has alot of "what if's" in his mind.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

On the same token as a few others...what's to say this guy was hunting legally with a shotgun? Did the officer get close enough to even see what he was armed with when he first approached? Like a few places, rifles are fair game for turkey hunting so who's to say he wasn't using a rifle whether it was legal or not? Think what you will about the poor 76 year old fella and may he RIP. Now put yourself in the boots of the warden. Half of the people pissin' and moanin' about this happening to the old duffer are the same ones crying about nothing getting done about the baiting, poaching and all the other $*** going on out there. I'll bet my a$$ the old guy was up to something. Wardens don't just shoot people to get their rocks off. .

I'll admit my DNR here in WI has their f-d up agendas and ideas, but not backing your wardens, at least 'til all the facts come out, is a bit irrational in my opinion.

Saw this on another chat forum....should shed some light.

Here are some facts about this case as I live in a neighboring county of Wilkes County. First the man was not 76 but 67 and his funeral was held today.

As to whether or not the GW was tipped off or not the man was hunting over bait which is illegal in NC. It is illegal on public or private land to hunt turkey over bait. Some of you may need to read that again. Notice the word ILLEGAL.

The GW first ticketed the man's son-in-law for doing the same thing and hunting without his license. He then confiscated the man's gun and then asked if anyone else was on the property. The GW was told of the elder gentleman and went to where he was located according to the man's son-in-law.

The GW found the elderly man indeed hunting ILLEGALLY over bait. He was told to come down from his tree stand and then told the GW, "if I come down I'm going to kill you!"

The man eventually came down at which time he shouldered his gun, pointed at the GW. The GW poistioned himself behind some trees all the time telling the man to put down his gun. The man continued his approach toward the GW, gun shouldered, ignoring the order to put down his gun.

Seeing no other recourse, the GW defended himself from a possible death in shooting the man who continued to 1) keep his gun shouldered ready to shoot, and 2) ignore what he was being told to do. What was he suppose to do? Shoot or be shot by someone who said that he was going to kill him?

It is indeed sad. Prayers need to be said on all involved.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

My thoughts go out to all who lost here.
That is everybody involved.
The old timers family and the warden.
Nothing can change what happened in the woods that day.

Just because you own the land dose not mean you write the laws.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Sounds good Canned Heat..but technically there are no witnesses ..If I were the GW I'd certainly have a good reason why I fired the shot as well...

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

I am happy there are some pro law guys on here. Most threads like this are hard on the GW. Nobody wants to go out and kill someone.
Good posts firelt72.

I hope not, i am sure he is baiting.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Are you serious with that statement?? We may never know what actually transpired that day, but if someone points a gun at an officer I really don't think that officer should asses the weapon, realize the effective killing range of that weapon, proceed out of that killing range and then radio for help.When dealing with someone who is pointing a gun at you, there is no patience. Patience could have gotten that GW killed.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Just read through the whole thread and have some thoughts....

The FAMILY mentions how he was a loving and caring gentleman, and he may have been, but have you ever seen anything else said about a deceased person? The facts are this old man got killed for a situation where heobviously was doing SOMETHING that he should not be doing. Loving and caring grandfathers don't get killed in a situation like this, they know whats right and DO THE RIGHT THING.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Are you serious with that statement??

yes..very serious..I worked at jails and bootcamps...and been alone with them..any of them could have cleaned my clock...these threads are simply opinion oriented..This was just my opinion.. I seriously beleive in H E L L and would think real hard before sending one there. I wasn'tin NOrth Carloinaand may have shot the man myself..but I'm just saying I personally would do my best to advoid shooting if I could. We are all different so it should not offend you if I'm different than you .I 'm not offended at anyone elses opinions so I beleive I should be shown the same respect..to have an opinion as well.
C7

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Well,
Unfortuneately, the only side of the story anyone knows is the Wardens. Anything may have happened, but the Warden isn't going to make himself look bad if he can help it. If the situation were reversed, I'm sure the old gentleman would probably tell the opposite story for his behalf. There are two sides to every story, but in this case, we will only hear the story the Warden wants us to hear.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Don't take this the wrong way Chuck, but please remember this statement when someone may happen to be beating your brains out with a stick. Do you think an effective stance from the responding officer would be to back out of stick range and "discuss" the situation? Or, should he promptly attempt to stop the beating using his training, tactics and available weapons?

Once again, not everyone knows the entire situation here, that's agreed by all discussing it. But, there's going to pretty much be an overwhelming agreement that if this man pointed a gun at an officer and told him he'd kill him, then it's justifiable. If he'll threaten an officer, he'll threaten anyone. What happens if the officer had retreated and the man pointed the gun at someone else who happened to walk or drive through the area?

If the situation is as told, the officer did his job without hesitation and to the best of his ability and judgement as he was trained and he's alive today for it. A State Trooper I knew once told me his main goal was to protect the people without dying on the side of a dirty highway and he'd do anything to achieve it. I'm sure this officer's goal is to do his job just the same, without dying in some old man's dirty field. As they say, it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Don't take this the wrong way Chuck, but please remember this statement when someone may happen to be beating your brains out with a stick. Do you think an effective stance from the responding officer would be to back out of stick range and "discuss" the situation? Or, should he promptly attempt to stop the beating using his training, tactics and available weapons?

Well... Iused to work with the adjudicated youth..{High school Gangs} I went through quite abit of training. My students were ALL psychologically screwed up in the head and loved seeing others get raped or the crap beat out of the./ALL of them were stronger than I . One student was hit so hard his eye was knocked completely out..This didn't happen in my class but on a Sat. And I had many hairy instances..and somehow defused them all..Now if you read carefully I didn't say for sure I wouldn't have shot the man..I just would make sure all possilbe defusing tactics were first looked at..I also carry a concealed firearm and I hope to God I never have to use it.

Once again, not everyone knows the entire situation here, that's agreed by all discussing it. I agree..But, there's going to pretty much be an overwhelming agreement that if this man pointed a gun at an officer and told him he'd kill him, then it's justifiable. If he'll threaten an officer, he'll threaten anyone. What happens if the officer had retreated and the man pointed the gun at someone else who happened to walk or drive through the area? I agree..if this man is that stupid to point a gun at a GW he's going to get shot.

Then there's another sceneria ...which I've seen alot..Did the Game Warden provoke the man..When I worked with these high school gangs sometimes I 'd have a helper who loved tackling the kids and rubbing their faces in the carpet..They would provoke the kids to say something threatening and then tackle them...

We had a bad situation here in Florida a few years ago..A meth dad left a loaded gun in the house..A kid finds it and shoots himself..They arrested the Meth man..Meth man is in the back seat..hand coffed..Cops are saying crap like " Wait till bubba gets you in jail you loser ..over and over again.." and laughing and laughing right after this guy loses his son..Well, Mr. Meth man somehow gets Mr. Cops pistol and shoot both cops and kills them..and he's later killed in a shoot out.

We have many game wardens in our area ..some nice some are not so nice..One lady stopped me last year and said..I wil find something I'm sure..She did..she got me for not having a whisle in my boat..45.00..and yet some have been very respectful and helping me ..We will probably really never know such things as body language..what was really said..God only knows..
C7

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

That's darn good wisdom.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

I'm glad you didn'ttake my post as a personalattack, it may have read a little like one but it wasn't meant to be one. The druggie you were referring to is the one who had the handcuff key on a chain around his neck if I remember right, and that was a bad situation. I myself have known two officers who were killed in the line of duty and both cases were because of the tiniest break in training and judgement. One was chasing a suspect on foot and entered a doorway straightrather than pushing the door open from the side.Unfortunately, the man was holding a handgun right behind it, shot in the head and died at the hospital. The other was questioning a suspect, known to be a violent offender, in a parking lot and a one second lapse to apparently glance at the people with the man cost him his life, shot in the head. I've known two types of officers when it comes to a gun pointed at them, those who'll take that extra second and try to flee and those who see that "triangle" light up instantly. You aren't arguing a mute point here. I know there are those who want to commit suicide by cop and there are those who really don't want to shoot a cop, they just want the cop to let them go about their business. The outcome could go either way with either person depending on the kind of cop that responds......Officer "extra second" OR Officer "triangle" could mean the difference between getting help and meeting your maker. Either way, that's the risk involved with pointing a gun at law enforcement.

On a side note to this, I know of this Wildlife Officer because he was first stationed in the county where I lived in NC, I even know a few who know him. I don't know him personally, but I've heard nothing but praise of the guy and the job he does. Not to take anything away from the landowner who died, but at the same time I know those who knowthe officerand what kind of people they are. The flipside of this is those who know the deceased, and I'm sure they'll attest to what an upstanding citizen of society he was. Either way, he's gone now and the entire thing just doesn't add up to an officer popping off a few rounds because a man wanted to kill a cornfed turkey. Then again, it could all be that the body language,attitude and previous encounters led the officer to fear a man thatjust wanted to be left alone.It's tragic that a life had to end, but at the same time it's tragic that another man's life and career can possibly be in jeopardy because of it. Those are the chances we take for the decisions we make I guess.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

I dont know who is right or wrong it is a tragedy to say the least.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

I'm glad you didn'ttake my post as a personalattack
Beezer,

no sir..I try to be mellow on here.I was kicked off once for 30 days..been working on my anger issues.:)
C7

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

One of the most important things we were taught in the 'Wildlife Law Enforcement' course is that you ask the person with which you are dealing to unload their weapon, set it aside and hand you the ammunition. It's unfortunate that this didn't happen in this case.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Your statement did not offend me, but struck me as you defending the man who was shot.None of us know, and may never know, the truth to the entire situation. But with the facts presented I thought it was silly for youto suggest that "when the GW realized what he was dealing with..he could have backed up out of the kill zone and radioed for help". That doesn't seem plausible and I wouldimagine against everything a law officer is trained to do. I wasn't trying to disrespect anyway, just trying to show how/why I disagreed with your statement.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Of course, the big issue with some of us is why an allegedly (if we are giving benefits of the doubt to everyone) baited site on private property ended up as a "kill zone." Like i said before, folks would likely get upset if an armed standoff occurred because the authorities senta SWAT team aftertheir neighborover an unpaid parking ticket, even if the authorities are in their legal right to do so.So, it makes you wonder about situations where you get people killed over an 'alleged" pile of corn. Not trying to be anti-law, but if you check around you will find that in plenty of cases where someone is shot by authoritiesit turns out the situation could have beenhandled better or avoided entirely.All I can say is itis gonna be interesting to see the results of thecompleted investigation.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Peck 1525,
NO problem my friend..I just know I'm a professonal and ONE goof up would cost me my retirement , and job security..I deal with messed up kids every day..and have to always cover my butt..We live in a very troubled society with hardly any morals..Most people act out of fear and it's my job not to overact but use the minimum force possible..

Concerning the Game Warden..I wasn't there..hopefully the truth will come out..Possible someone had too much coffee that morning..[:-]I'm being serious..it can make already hyper people REALLY hyper.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

The problem with society today is that those you are dealing with have "hardly any morals" but everything you do to deal with them is questioned under the guise of "Political Correctness." Very few are willing to deal with the ones without morals, but there are always a thousand people who'll question the way they are dealt with. I don't blame you for you CYOA attitude, it's a requirement these days.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

here is my thoughts on this ............ it was so important to ticket a man for hunting over bait for turkeys on private land that a shooting death occurred as the result ..... I mean, seriously, in retrospect, is the importance of it all really justification for the events that unfolded?

sure, many things could have stopped the escalations of the story that was told, and it IS a story, no one knows what happened but the dead man and the living one, and the living one is telling it - but in the grand scheme of things the root cause was the drive to write a citation to a man on his own property for hunting turkeys over bait - right?

is it me or does that sound like a reallytrvial start to it all ?

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Maybe we should just chuck the game laws entirely and let people shoot what they want, when they want, how many they want, and not worry about it. Or maybe we should just afford that luxury to people who have their own land and let us public land hunters have to deal with rules and regulations. The guy might have been on his own land, but laws are laws. If a LEO asked me to climb down and put down my weapon, I'd do it. I might not be happy if I was legally hunting, but I'd do it. The last thing on earth I'd do is threaten him or point my weapon at him. Yes, it was trivial. The LEO followed up on a game violation tip, caught the guy red handed, and the guy should have just taken the citation and been done with it. I can't imagine the LEO was lookin to shoot someone that day. I have to think the land owner took a trivial situation and escallated it.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Here is what I don't get. Many say back out, it's trivial, get farther away, etc. So every time someone is suspected of a game violation they just point their gun at the warden and threaten them? This sounds like a situation where a blatant violation was occuring (in NC if you are sitting in a treestand turkey hunting over bait that is a blatant violation) and when approached the violator supposedly escallated the situation by pointing a weapon at the warden. Now once you threaten the life of any type of enforcement officier, no matter how petty you think the violation is, the original violation is not what is now the "major" violation, the threat is. I don't care if you are jaywalking, if you threaten the officer's life you are going to be charged for it and you aren't going to be allowed to walk home to be arrested later either. Also about backing out of range. Just because it appears to be a shotgun inan instant how is a warden to know what it is loaded with? #6 lead vs. a 12 gauge slug would have mighty different results when fired at a person. I have prayed for both sides knowing this is a bad deal for all. It is easy to Monday morning quarterback this situation but the biggest thing you must do is separate the 2 violations because the turkey bait didn't lead to the guy's death, supposedly pointing his shotgun at the warden did. Look at it this way, many fault the warden for going too far, what if the guy had just said OK you got me and just taken his ticket?

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Dont think that any GW should back away when they are threatened and people pointing guns at law enforcement should not be tolerated, IF it has to come to that. However, I think that some folks are simply arguing that the whole situation could have been handled in a manner where guns were not even involved.Keep in mind that dealing with a game violation is not quite the same as dealing with an armed crack dealer. Putting myself in a GW's shoes, if I have an identified armed suspect in the old man's situation, I might at least consider following him home and arresting him later when he is sitting on the porch drinking coffee as opposed to a confrontational approach.Might have taken more time and effort and be contrary to how some feel agame violation should be handled. But all I know at this point is that we have a dead man and a GW whose career will be ruined unless his version of the story completely checks out.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

RIStrutStopper

A Snickers wrapper is tossed into the floorboard, and an open window sucks it out onto the hwy. A State trooper sees it, pulls car over, driver is mad because its unintentional, maybe he's late for something important, maybe the officer is having a bad day, fought with wife night before, maybe a few heated words are exchanged, maybe some of the words aren't right and are misinterpreted, maybe the driver opens the car door when he's told not to, maybe he tells the cop something he shouldn't and the cop returns it, maybe it looks like the driver is reaching for something, maybe the officer doesn't see it right, maybe the driver is, the cop shoots the driver twice in the chest ........... the man has a wife, 3 kids, 6 grandkids, a wedding next weekend, a fishing trip with 2 high school buddies on Fri, the cop is expecting his 1st child, in-laws are visiting on Saturday, they're behind a bit in mortgage payments ........



All over a candy wrapper flying out a window ............ doesn't that seem areally really trivial way for a man to die and another man's life to be forever altered and both the families involved affected too ?






Its my mind that something didn't go right that day. I can't believe the old man was that intent on shooting a warden. Maybe I'm wrong. But I do know the warden was/is suppose to be highly trained in these situations - if you have a license to kill someone legally you frickin better be.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

I sure am glad Big Brother is paying government agents with taxpayer dollars to lurk around private property in a warrantless searchand confront armed property owners over a pile of corn.

Maybe the guy was breaking the law. Maybe he thought he was far enough from the corn pile. Who knows. It surely doesn't seem to be worth it in hindsight.

Moreover, this is about state revenue and job security. Its a bit like a speed trap. Sure, a citizen might be breaking a regulation, but posting up on an interstatein such a way to cause people to slam on breaks, trying to merge from a deadstop onto an interstate and weave through traffic to go get the guy, forcing them to stop in the emergency lane for 10 minutes while traffic is whizzing by, and then in most states this is a virtual road block because traffic is forced to merge over into the left lane, is it really worth all that danger to give someone a citation for going9 mph over the speed limit? Well, in the eyes of Big Brother it is because it generates A LOT of revenue and it provides them with something to do such that they can say "you can cut Law Enforcement budgets, look at all these duties we perform." If they really cared about making people safer, they'd enforce tailgating, running yellow lights, making turns from improper lanes, and other actions that actually have a high probability of causing an accident. But speeding is very easy to catch and very easy to prove, which means maximized revenue with minimal effort.

Similarly, if Game Wardens wanted to make people safer, they'd be catching people who pouch on private property, people who pouch out of season, or evenpeople who aren't wearing enough orange on public land, etc. Moreover, they wouldn't be CONFISCATING WEAPONS over trivial offenses. Most people have a lot of sentimental value in their guns and would rather pay a fine of twice the value of the gun than lose the gun itself. But it isn't about safety or fairness with the .gov, its about maximum power and maximum profit.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

So speeding doesn't cause accidents? OK ;)

I have to say that if the guy pointed the gun at the GW, then pull the trigger. I'm like many others that are shocked that many are saying it's ok to sit over baited areas!!!!! Stop breaking the law and GW's won't have to do the things they do!!!!! Saying the GW would have a problem on your land if he came on it is retarded!!! Wait for the facts. The guy was wrong, and the problem could have escalated, could it have been solved? Maybe.

How many of you have ever argued with Senior Citizen? They don't usually give in their opinions so if the GW was trying to tell him something there is a good chance the Old man didn't care.

GW are there to help us who follow the laws. I was at Walmart getting shells the other day and the man in front of me was too. The lady at the counter asked to see his FOID card, in IL we have this card to prove we can own guns and buy ammo - it's given by the state police. The man argued that it is too hard to take out of his wallet, valid point, but he didn't have time and was in a rush and he got very loud and ridiculous over her asking to see it. She ended up not making him take it out. Can you say the next terrorist????? I told the lady make sure every person takes out there card and it's legal, I don't care who they are. There's a reason that law is in place. Sure it sucks I have to get it out to buy ammo or a gun, but it makes me safer so I'll do it.

People need to recognize that laws are in place for a reason. The GW was doing his job and if you don't like it, then quit hunting and stop putting the ones who follow the law and enforce the law in danger![:@]

Off soap box now.....

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

stealthycat-the difference is the GW was looking at a shotgun pointed at him. He didn't suspect he was going for a weapon in your candy wrapper analogy.

lanse couche couche- almost all hunters are armed so instead of writing tickets in the field they should be tailed to the house? I doubt the officer thought this would happen when he confronted the guy. He was doing as he had probably done hundreds of approaching a potential violator and issuing a citation.

stonewall- If this guy was hunting turkeys over bait, he was poaching! Poaching is taking animals outside of the game laws, right? In NC you cannot hunt over, near, or take turkeys with the aid of bait, period! Supposedly the warden was not randomly checking private land, he had been tipped off about bait on this land. In NC he was acting totally within his scope of duties. What is the deal with confiscating weapons? From what I have read there was nothing about confiscating weapons. The hunter/poacher was supposedly in a tree stand and was asked to come down when he started pointing his gun at the warden and telling him to get off his land.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Yep, there are laws that need to be obeyed. BUT, how LEO choose to enforce them can differ. When the hometown troublemaker teen runs a stop light and wont pull over, the local cops have two choices: purseue him until the very end even if it means driving thru town at 100 miles an hour and endangering everyone in the vicinity, or, back off and pick him up the next morning at his parents' house. Like the old saying goes, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.....[:-]

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Ok but the difference here is the violator threatened violent action against the officer. I do not know in what LE situation other than a hostage situation that LEO's walk away from that.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

I haven't read all the post but do live in the area and have had a few things mentioned by the folks that live close by...

1) They have a neighbor that had been caught on their land a few times and run off...
2) The Game Warden was not in uniform but in camo...
3) The old gentleman was very hard of hearing...

Now, those 2 facts can lead to a lack of communication as to who was slipping through the woods and walked up on the older gentleman...When you add in the fact that a neighbor had been run off then you begin to realize that IF there were bait in the area maybe the older gentleman didn't even know it was there...

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Blackheel,

My question isdid the situation really even need to reach the point where you two guys out in the woodswith agun being pointed? We know what needed to be done IF the GW's version of the story is completely true. Up until that point of no return, however,things likely could have been handled muchbetter.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Allegedly. Dead men tell no tales,which is convenientfor Johnny Rambo who was sneaking around in camo on private property enforcing corn pile regulations.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

Been monitoring the post and need to add my $0.02.

I was on the CPOs side for a while and still probably am because if the hunter complied, then nothing would have happened - presumably.

However, my question is why camo? Neither the bait pile nor the 76 year old man is going to run away when the CPO walks up and catches him red handed. Going in to that situation, I am wearing blaze orange and keeping a large tree between us until the situation is diffused.

I think the CPO is over zealous playing Johnny Rambo like Stonewall states and could have handled the situation in a manner that would have not led to a shooting.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

and what is wrong with enforcing the game laws of our state? He was well within his rights to enforce corn pile regulations.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

The authorities are in their rights to send in a SWAT team to arrest you while you are at the local shooting range holding a loaded gun if you have forgetten to pay atraffic ticket and a bench warrant is issued. However, LEO rights have to be balanced with common sensein some instances.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

I just have trouble believing that a LEO with a level head on his shoulders couldn't have avoided this situation entirely. It is undeniable that if you have a gun intentionally pointed at you that you should react to protect yourself. However it seems exceedingly likely, virtually certain, that such an escalation could have been avoided.

What was said? What was the demeanor of the two parties involved? Was their some confusion because of a hearing disability? Was their confusion about the identity of the game warden? Did he show identification? Did he identify himself immediately?

Every+70 year old I have ever met was as harmless as a fly and probably would have gladly accepted a citation just for the opportunity to have someone to talk to.

On the contrary, I have seen more than a handful of LEO who are completely out of line, on a power trip, and not understanding or patient about some confusion or misunderstanding that a citizen has. In the last year alone videos have come out showing LEOs beating up little 90 lb. kids with skateboards, dumping people out of wheelchairs onto the ground, elbowing and bodyslamming teenage girls and then picking them up by their hair, etc.. Its true that laws are laws and need to be obeyed; its also true that citizens are people and sometimes a little patience goes a long long way.

RE: 76 yr old turkey hunter killed by game warden
 

everything is alleged by the game warden - there are no facts available that says the old man pointed a gun, or said what he said is there?