Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
07-07-2004, 12:37 PM
#1
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lees Summit MO
Posts: 46
Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
A couple years ago Chad sold me my first recurve. I've enjoyed limited success. This, after purchasing, Byron Ferguson's Become the Arrow book and tape as well as an instinctive archery book. I'm not improving like I should be. I'm not shooting every day right now, but there have been periods of time when I was. Again, I'm just not improving the way I believe I should.
This leads me to my questions. Is there someone in the Kansas City area who would be willing to work with me a little - paid of course. OR, can someone offer any advice - besides time - that might help me improve?
Checkmate 60" Falcon bow, DL - 27", aluminum arrows w/ feather vanes. 100gr. heads.
Thanks,
Mike
This leads me to my questions. Is there someone in the Kansas City area who would be willing to work with me a little - paid of course. OR, can someone offer any advice - besides time - that might help me improve?
Checkmate 60" Falcon bow, DL - 27", aluminum arrows w/ feather vanes. 100gr. heads.
Thanks,
Mike
07-07-2004, 02:45 PM
#2
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Victoria British Columbia Canada
Posts: 204
RE: Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
Something you could try is video taping yourself from several different angles. Any subconscious goofiness that might be going on should be quite apparent.
RC
RC
07-07-2004, 08:44 PM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
Merit:
Specifically what do you mean when you say you do not believe you are improving like you believe you should?
You need to provide more info for others to best advise you as to what each person believes MIGHT be your problem(s).
1. How long have you been shooting a bow; not just a recurve bow?
2. What is the draw-weight of your bow at what length (@28")?
3. Is your bow center-shot?
4. What brace height are you using?
5. What length and number of feather fletching are on your shafts. Are they straight, offset, helical? Are they parabolic, shield cut, banana, etc?
6. What is the size (spine) and length of your arrows?
7. Are you shooting off the shelf, shelf rest, spring rest on window, etc?
8. Do you use an adjustable "pressure button?"
9. Are you finger shooting or using a release?
10. If finger shooting, do you use the "split finger" draw, or three fingers under?
I know there will be many debates on this comment.
If I had picked your bow for you, it would have been a 64" bow, not a 60" bow. I might have agreed to a 62" as the absolute minimum, but not without much argument and you finally telling me that it is your money. Being you were an apprentice recurve shooter, I might have even suggested giving up some bow energy (limb action) and suggested a 66" for smoothness and stability until you became more familiar and adept with a stick bow.
Specifically what do you mean when you say you do not believe you are improving like you believe you should?
You need to provide more info for others to best advise you as to what each person believes MIGHT be your problem(s).
1. How long have you been shooting a bow; not just a recurve bow?
2. What is the draw-weight of your bow at what length (@28")?
3. Is your bow center-shot?
4. What brace height are you using?
5. What length and number of feather fletching are on your shafts. Are they straight, offset, helical? Are they parabolic, shield cut, banana, etc?
6. What is the size (spine) and length of your arrows?
7. Are you shooting off the shelf, shelf rest, spring rest on window, etc?
8. Do you use an adjustable "pressure button?"
9. Are you finger shooting or using a release?
10. If finger shooting, do you use the "split finger" draw, or three fingers under?
I know there will be many debates on this comment.
If I had picked your bow for you, it would have been a 64" bow, not a 60" bow. I might have agreed to a 62" as the absolute minimum, but not without much argument and you finally telling me that it is your money. Being you were an apprentice recurve shooter, I might have even suggested giving up some bow energy (limb action) and suggested a 66" for smoothness and stability until you became more familiar and adept with a stick bow.
07-07-2004, 11:13 PM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississippi USA
Posts: 15,296
RE: Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
I'm not close enough to give any lessons (or qualified either), but I'll be glad to help if I can. Are you haveing a specific problem? I figure someone here can help. Another video, if you are interested, is Ricky Welch's video, Volume II. He has a different approach than Ferguson. If we can pin down the problem, then we can work on a solution.
Chad
Chad
07-08-2004, 01:32 AM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 520
RE: Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
Since one can shoot well with any of a number of different styles, I think that problems are more likely to be in the fundamentals.
Poorly set up gear, either in matching, tuning, or excess bow weight, can keep you from learning the fundamentals. I think it is also a good thing to pick one of the styles mentioned, and there are others, study that video carefuly to make sure you are consistant with that style, for instance elbow position will vary depending on the release and anchor point you use, so trying to keep your elbow in one place but with the wrong anchor would be bad.
The fundamentals are simple:
Strength entirely adequate to the task, practice holding at full draw (and push-ups to compensate for the muscles you aren't working), until you are entirely strong enough. Give yourself time to get there, don't rush.
Think for a moment of your follow through position, then draw and hold your bow firmly at full draw, until the bow is loosed/goes off. You need to repeat this process until you have a perfect release which essentialy fires itself.
When the first two steps are in place, practice shooting at targets. Let the bow fire itself, while you aim. There are many aiming options in barebow. If you want to become an instinctive shooter, probably starting with an awareness of the arrow in relation to the target is a good idea, but you should try to transfer your focus to the target itself, as soon as you can. I prefer not to practice missing, decide on a level of accuracy, don't move back until almost all your arrows are hiting there. Or shoot from one distance like 20 yards for a while until you are good, then work on other distances. Just shooting a lot and missing a lot doesn't teach you how to hit what you want to hit. Lots of variable practice does teach one how to estimate yardage, but if you venture too soon into that aspect, before you can hit a known distance, there is a tendancy to never really get tight on the target.
Poorly set up gear, either in matching, tuning, or excess bow weight, can keep you from learning the fundamentals. I think it is also a good thing to pick one of the styles mentioned, and there are others, study that video carefuly to make sure you are consistant with that style, for instance elbow position will vary depending on the release and anchor point you use, so trying to keep your elbow in one place but with the wrong anchor would be bad.
The fundamentals are simple:
Strength entirely adequate to the task, practice holding at full draw (and push-ups to compensate for the muscles you aren't working), until you are entirely strong enough. Give yourself time to get there, don't rush.
Think for a moment of your follow through position, then draw and hold your bow firmly at full draw, until the bow is loosed/goes off. You need to repeat this process until you have a perfect release which essentialy fires itself.
When the first two steps are in place, practice shooting at targets. Let the bow fire itself, while you aim. There are many aiming options in barebow. If you want to become an instinctive shooter, probably starting with an awareness of the arrow in relation to the target is a good idea, but you should try to transfer your focus to the target itself, as soon as you can. I prefer not to practice missing, decide on a level of accuracy, don't move back until almost all your arrows are hiting there. Or shoot from one distance like 20 yards for a while until you are good, then work on other distances. Just shooting a lot and missing a lot doesn't teach you how to hit what you want to hit. Lots of variable practice does teach one how to estimate yardage, but if you venture too soon into that aspect, before you can hit a known distance, there is a tendancy to never really get tight on the target.
07-08-2004, 06:17 PM
#6
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lees Summit MO
Posts: 46
RE: Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
c903
I've been shooting compounds for about 15 years.
The bow is 54# @ 28"
Bow is centershot.
I don't remember the brace height. I can check that later.
28" arrows with 3 4" slight helical feathers.
28" 2213 aluminum arrows.
Shooting off the shelf.
No pressure button.
Currently using a release tab.
I don't believe I'm "over bowed". Drawing and releasing is comfortable and smooth. My accuracy is where I'm lacking. At 20 yards, I'm everywhere. I've had a hard time determining just what is wrong - if anything - with my form. Also, I still don't have the "feel" for the aiming process. I've started at 10 yards and slowly worked my way back, but I always end up returning to the 10 yard line. It is a slow process for me so don't think I'm slinging a couple arrows at the 10 and then rushing back to the 20. Many days I don't make it past the 10 yard line.
Ossage - "Just shooting a lot and missing a lot doesn't teach you how to hit what you want to hit." YUP - that's my problem. I've tried to fine tune form, aiming, etc., but as of yet I haven't been successful.
Anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks everyone for some great advice so far.
Mike
I've been shooting compounds for about 15 years.
The bow is 54# @ 28"
Bow is centershot.
I don't remember the brace height. I can check that later.
28" arrows with 3 4" slight helical feathers.
28" 2213 aluminum arrows.
Shooting off the shelf.
No pressure button.
Currently using a release tab.
I don't believe I'm "over bowed". Drawing and releasing is comfortable and smooth. My accuracy is where I'm lacking. At 20 yards, I'm everywhere. I've had a hard time determining just what is wrong - if anything - with my form. Also, I still don't have the "feel" for the aiming process. I've started at 10 yards and slowly worked my way back, but I always end up returning to the 10 yard line. It is a slow process for me so don't think I'm slinging a couple arrows at the 10 and then rushing back to the 20. Many days I don't make it past the 10 yard line.
Ossage - "Just shooting a lot and missing a lot doesn't teach you how to hit what you want to hit." YUP - that's my problem. I've tried to fine tune form, aiming, etc., but as of yet I haven't been successful.
Anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks everyone for some great advice so far.
Mike
07-09-2004, 03:39 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: egypt
Posts: 1,994
RE: Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
Merit,
I have a few charts on spine conversions. I dont have a 2213's actual spine, however I do have a chart showing in the 71-75lb spine range if you were to go over to woods.
That said, it sounds like you are quite a bit stiff. On top of it you said your draw was 27"es in your first post? If so you can bump that spine group UP one more slot 76-80's. My guess is this is your first problem! Mind you I am not factoring for a ff or dynaflight string, in which case you'd be closer.....by a little
I also am not so sure what "not improving like I should be" means, as it takes years for some to get to a good level. MOST situations are person related, not gear...however it sounds to me like both are at play (which usually is the case at the get go).
My first recommendation, is to get your gear situated. Your accuracy will improve leaps and bounds here alone. Next, stop worring about groups and bulls eyes, and concentrate on your form for awhile, getting comfortable and more so consistent, and after that doing this as a warm up before shooting if possible, INCLUDING during hunts if not moreso here!
If your set up is on, (and you can achieve bullet holes with stickbows quite easily), it falls back to the shooter. A number of things can be happening and without seeing you shoot there is no way I could guess, it would screw you up more then it would help I am sure. The only problem with bare shaft shooting is it can give you bad readings due to bad release's, so take it with a grain of salt.
If you havent already, try adding some pressure points to your site window under your rest material, both side plate and bottom piece. For a recurve put it under the deepest part of the grip. If the high spot is off of this mark due to how the bow is made, adjust things accordingly. You can fine tune this later. It helps minimize torque, something simple but effective!
I dont believe in adding helical to HIDE a problem. I'd rather fix it, THEN put some helical on to help. You're bound to find yourself in a situation where even a slight wobble can mess things up, either mentally or in flight.
If you're going to stick with aluminummm, you might try these:
2016 61lb spine
2115 68lb spine
2018 69lb spine
2217 70lb spine
My guess is a 2213 falls on the high end of the 71 to 75lb spine range.
Try a local shop, they might have a few laying around you can test out, or better yet buy for test arrows. I'd start at 29"es and cut down from there at 1/4" increments depending on the readings you end up with. The 3 on the high end, if they work, will give you some choices on arrow weights... I would start on the low end first though, depending on string material and work up in spine from there.
Hope it helps.
I have a few charts on spine conversions. I dont have a 2213's actual spine, however I do have a chart showing in the 71-75lb spine range if you were to go over to woods.
That said, it sounds like you are quite a bit stiff. On top of it you said your draw was 27"es in your first post? If so you can bump that spine group UP one more slot 76-80's. My guess is this is your first problem! Mind you I am not factoring for a ff or dynaflight string, in which case you'd be closer.....by a little
I also am not so sure what "not improving like I should be" means, as it takes years for some to get to a good level. MOST situations are person related, not gear...however it sounds to me like both are at play (which usually is the case at the get go).
My first recommendation, is to get your gear situated. Your accuracy will improve leaps and bounds here alone. Next, stop worring about groups and bulls eyes, and concentrate on your form for awhile, getting comfortable and more so consistent, and after that doing this as a warm up before shooting if possible, INCLUDING during hunts if not moreso here!
If your set up is on, (and you can achieve bullet holes with stickbows quite easily), it falls back to the shooter. A number of things can be happening and without seeing you shoot there is no way I could guess, it would screw you up more then it would help I am sure. The only problem with bare shaft shooting is it can give you bad readings due to bad release's, so take it with a grain of salt.
If you havent already, try adding some pressure points to your site window under your rest material, both side plate and bottom piece. For a recurve put it under the deepest part of the grip. If the high spot is off of this mark due to how the bow is made, adjust things accordingly. You can fine tune this later. It helps minimize torque, something simple but effective!
I dont believe in adding helical to HIDE a problem. I'd rather fix it, THEN put some helical on to help. You're bound to find yourself in a situation where even a slight wobble can mess things up, either mentally or in flight.
If you're going to stick with aluminummm, you might try these:
2016 61lb spine
2115 68lb spine
2018 69lb spine
2217 70lb spine
My guess is a 2213 falls on the high end of the 71 to 75lb spine range.
Try a local shop, they might have a few laying around you can test out, or better yet buy for test arrows. I'd start at 29"es and cut down from there at 1/4" increments depending on the readings you end up with. The 3 on the high end, if they work, will give you some choices on arrow weights... I would start on the low end first though, depending on string material and work up in spine from there.
Hope it helps.
07-09-2004, 01:03 PM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
Lilhunter:
Very good analysis and recommendations.
I was about to wade in last night and say that I was suspicious of the shaft size. I was going to recommend he try 2016's, 2018's or even the old standby, 2117's. In addition, I am not an advocate of 4" fletch for recurves. I know that many stick shooters do fine with 4" fletch, but when a shooter is still struggling with setup and form on a recurve, I strongly suggest no less than a 5" fletch.
As you stated, he also might benefit from some type of "pressure point" on the shaft, preferably and adjustable cushion. Although he states that his bow is "center shot," his shooting off the shelf puts the shaft against the riser, and IMO he will still experience a bit of "paradox."
Because his shafts might be wrapping around the riser somewhat, I believe you are spot on that the 2213's might be too stiff. I know that it is controversial among stick shooters, but I believe that when there is a "paradox" issue, regardless how minimum, a more flexible shaft with 5" fletch (greater and faster stabilizing) may be the best setup for some shooters.
I also believe he should try a "glove" to shoot with. Some shooters cannot shooter well with a "tab" because they have a problem of getting too much finger around the string and they cannot get a clean release. I am one of those. If I use a tab, everything goes to hell in a hand-basket.
Last, if he is not using a "wrist strap," I suggest that he do so until is has conditioned himself not to too tightly grip the bow, or grab the bow riser after the shot. Today's recurves with fast limbs and fast-flight type strings do have the tendency to want to jump out of your bow hand.
Very good analysis and recommendations.
I was about to wade in last night and say that I was suspicious of the shaft size. I was going to recommend he try 2016's, 2018's or even the old standby, 2117's. In addition, I am not an advocate of 4" fletch for recurves. I know that many stick shooters do fine with 4" fletch, but when a shooter is still struggling with setup and form on a recurve, I strongly suggest no less than a 5" fletch.
As you stated, he also might benefit from some type of "pressure point" on the shaft, preferably and adjustable cushion. Although he states that his bow is "center shot," his shooting off the shelf puts the shaft against the riser, and IMO he will still experience a bit of "paradox."
Because his shafts might be wrapping around the riser somewhat, I believe you are spot on that the 2213's might be too stiff. I know that it is controversial among stick shooters, but I believe that when there is a "paradox" issue, regardless how minimum, a more flexible shaft with 5" fletch (greater and faster stabilizing) may be the best setup for some shooters.
I also believe he should try a "glove" to shoot with. Some shooters cannot shooter well with a "tab" because they have a problem of getting too much finger around the string and they cannot get a clean release. I am one of those. If I use a tab, everything goes to hell in a hand-basket.
Last, if he is not using a "wrist strap," I suggest that he do so until is has conditioned himself not to too tightly grip the bow, or grab the bow riser after the shot. Today's recurves with fast limbs and fast-flight type strings do have the tendency to want to jump out of your bow hand.
07-09-2004, 03:34 PM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Walker LA USA
Posts: 443
RE: Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
Are you missing more left, right or up and down? Vertical misses are usually due to an inconsistent anchor.Horizontal missses could be from collapsing the bow arm or hand or plucking the string.
A couple of things that helped me tighten up my groups.I swithced to 3 under with midddle finger in corner of mouth and cock feather touching my nose at draw.With 3 under I could see the arrow in my peripheral vision and it tightend the "gaps".The other thing was focusing on pushing the bow arm to the target and following thru.Dont be afraid to gap shoot or sight down the arrow.The "instinctive" thing will come with time.
The tuning issue is a chicken and egg thing.yeah your arrows need to be spined properly,but it hard to shoot any kind of group if your form is inconsistent.Just stay close and work on that form.Good luck.
CB
A couple of things that helped me tighten up my groups.I swithced to 3 under with midddle finger in corner of mouth and cock feather touching my nose at draw.With 3 under I could see the arrow in my peripheral vision and it tightend the "gaps".The other thing was focusing on pushing the bow arm to the target and following thru.Dont be afraid to gap shoot or sight down the arrow.The "instinctive" thing will come with time.
The tuning issue is a chicken and egg thing.yeah your arrows need to be spined properly,but it hard to shoot any kind of group if your form is inconsistent.Just stay close and work on that form.Good luck.
CB
07-10-2004, 09:29 AM
#10
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 87
RE: Shameless solicitation for recurve lessons.
I am thinking Lilhunter has given some good advice.
Also i think Merit that you are on the right track asking for personal help. Sometimes a bit of coaching is all a guy needs to break that bundary. If there is no one in the Kansas area here maybe you might want to try over at tradgang.com as i believe ther are one or two guys from that area hanging around there.
Tradshooting is supposed to be fun as ell as challenging. If you are feeling stymied it ain't gonna help your shooting.
Good luck
=keith=
Also i think Merit that you are on the right track asking for personal help. Sometimes a bit of coaching is all a guy needs to break that bundary. If there is no one in the Kansas area here maybe you might want to try over at tradgang.com as i believe ther are one or two guys from that area hanging around there.
Tradshooting is supposed to be fun as ell as challenging. If you are feeling stymied it ain't gonna help your shooting.
Good luck
=keith=