minimum speed for hunting
 

I'm thinking of building some PVC recurves and/or longbows over the winter for knockaround bows, something fun to do and to give away to friends to get them shooting.

How fast does an arrow need to be to hunt Whitetails (let's say 20yds max)?

How fast for bowfishing?


p.s.
I apologize if I'm in the wrong section. I figured Tradbow guys would know more about ethical arrow speeds and KE.

I have not run across a question like this before--- I'm a Trad bowman I know the minimum poundage here in Louisiana is around the 40# mark. But I've never heard of a minimum speed requirment.

I don't mean from a legal standpoint. Just a question of what is needed to get the job done. The bows I'm thinking about should pull sufficient weight 40-50lbs. Perhaps the appropriate question to ask would be moreso a question of arrow selection than the bow itself?

You must match your arrow to your bow by that I mean you have to find which spine weight is thebest for the bow you are using regardless of the bow's stated lbs @ it's draw lenght A rule of thumb is 10 to 15# heavier spine weight than the draw weight of the bow. i.e. A 45# bow shold be pushing an arrow of 55 to 60 # spine weight.
There are variables to consider; if using a fast flight string add 5# to spine weight. Remember though each bow is an indiviual what is sauce for the goose may not be sauce for the gander. For instance the bow I shoot (a recurve) uses arrows rated in the 60 to 65# spine weight with a 160gr point and FF string. The bow itself is rated @ 47# at my DL of 30" so ideally my bow should launch an arrow with the SW of 62#
The bowyer recommended a SW of 80 to 85#! with a125gr. point Which would make the arrow way too stiff. A supplier of shafts recommended a SW of 65 to 70# w/ 145 gr. points again way too stiff. I finally settled on the 60 65# SW with the 160gr points and am satisfied as I can now group my arrows within a 7" circle @15 & 20yds on qa fairly consistant basis IF I do my part.

As already mentioned, you will need the right spine arrow, which is a measure of how much the arrow will bend. With that said, foc will affect your spine. The more head weight you have, the heavier spine you will need. Where as the opposite is true for a lighter head. A lighter spine will be needed for a lighter head. What you are trying to accomplish is getting your arrow paradox to curve around your riser/grip with no contact.



AS for speed, speed is relative. Kinetic Energy is the key. I am a bowyer, and my personal hunting bows for Boar, Deer, and the likes, I tiller to pull around 65-70lbs at my draw. Which is more than needed, you can get by with 45lbs. The key is to get a heavy enough arrow and enough foc to penetrate. With my bows, I like to have a 550-600 + grain arrow, with a head ranging from 125 grains to 165 grains, which gives me about a 11% to as much as 18% foc, respectively. Some like even more foc and go with up to 200 grain heads. I have not hunted with a light bow, but have made many for other people. With 45lb bows bows set up for deer, I set them up with 350+ grain arrow and around 14% foc. It seems to do the trick.


All of the above will need to be accounted for when getting a bow ready to hunt with. When all that is taken care of, shooting form is the next step.

thanks guys =)

Shooting through deer is not much harder than shooting through a paper sack. My best friend's daughter has killed a few with a recurve pulling about 22-23# @ 22" with arrows around 400 grains. At least one of hers was a big doe at approximately 26 yds. She's not getting pass-throughs, but she is getting dead deer. She's using Beman ICS Junior carbon arrows and Ace 2-blade broadheads (125 grain). No idea what her KE, Momentum, or FOC is.

The key is good arrow flight, very sharp broadheads, and excellent shot placement. We haven't chronographed them, but I'd be shocked if she's getting more than 130-150 fps.

I believe it was Primitive Archer that did an article a year or three ago about penetration in a deer. The fellow who wrote the article used a fresh-killed deer, a very poorly made selfbow (his description--I think he made it) that was pulling around 40#, and stone points on wood and cane arrows. His results were impressive--plenty of penetration.


Hogs can be a different story--especially larger ones.

Chad

LBR, those numbers impress the heck outta me. I know the KE charts are only a guideline, but dang. that setup should only be putting out 20 ft-lbs. Easton recommends 25 ft-lbs minimum for deer.

Did she accomplish that in Mississippi?

speed doesn't matter - a well tuned bow, greater than the min weight your state requires and a heavy arrow with a sharp 2 blade broadhead

and your ability to shoot it :)

It was in MS (Northeast)--the one "big doe" was around 100#--a big one for this part of the country. I wouldn't reccomend hunting with a 25# bow, but that was the most she could shoot accurately--it did the job just fine.

Shooting isn't a problem. I know my range limitation with this bow. It's got enough weight. It is pulling about 45# @ 28". Speed right around 150fps.(bare string) but I don't have any heavy arrows. The best I can put together is a 370gr. Cabela's carbon hunter 8.4gpi. With NAP Thunderheads 125gr. with such a light arrow I'm not sure if it'd be worth a try or just stick to my compound this season

I'll be hunting central MS later this week while I'm on leave hopefully. The deer I've seen aren't exactly tanks. That's what makes me wonder if it's possible

yeah, stick through with the compound this year. practice up fer next year.

With todays speed, speed, speed
 

bows will get so fast, they'll all be too fast for felons to shoot one.

I hear ya. That's why I'm trying to slow it down a bit. It'll be nice to get back to basics. PSE stinger (not a really fast bow) with a 400 grain arrow throws a 400gr arrow with an unnecesary amount of KE for the largest whitetail

it is not the speed that kills deer it is the silent well placed shot, no bow will ever be fast enough to out run an alert deer at 20 yards, if they jump and you haven't compensated your aim then you miss or hit too high, this is why i always go for the quietest bow possible then speed,, before all you speed guys jump the string on me , remember this is only MY opinion and everyone has one

This thread has given me a lot of things to think about.

I was told double bladed broadheads had more penetration than three or four blades on a broadhead when using a recurve bow. Is that correct?

it would have a lil more resistance, but if they are sharp they should go just as, or almost as deep as a 2. penetration has alot to do with shot placement too

I appreciate the information.

speed
 

speed does matter and it matter a whole lot. deer jumping the string, trajectory, energy are some of the reasons. a certain amount of energy is required for proper penetration but that can be gotten from speed or mass, try shooting a lead pipe in your bow, see where that gets ya. true, a lighter arrow will slow down faster, same for a bullet but that is at a range you need not be overly concerned with. with lighter bows and lighter arrows use smaller broadheads like three blade or especially two blade that have been honed. over a large number of kills, the best of them are from pass through and the reasons are many, forget the expanding kind, even if they were any good, you won't have the power in a light bow to open them. my indian archery 45 lb recurve from the 70's shoots a hunting arrow, 2016, at 170 fps, that's pretty reasonable and with a set up similar to that have had a complete pass through on an elk shot though the lungs at 30 yds. any recurve that can shoot a hunting arrow at barely over 200 fps. is unusual and really fast

cheers

Speed can help on a longer shot, but isn't a cure-all. No bow--not even the fastest compound--is faster than a deer's reflexes.

[QUOTE] a certain amount of energy is required for proper penetration but that can be gotten from speed or mass, try shooting a lead pipe in your bow, see where that gets ya.[/QUOTE]

Not exactly a fair comparison. The other end would be to try shooting a feather or ping-pong ball from your bow and see where that gets you.

I don't like super light or super heavy. It blows my mind to see points weighing 200+ grains. I think this came about when people were trying to get carbons that weren't offered in low enough spine to shoot from lighter recurves and longbows. Just a guess. Also makes me scratch my head when I see 65 grain broadheads. Mr. Bear didn't seem to have a problem killing stuff with 125 grain heads.


I personally don't use expandables, I don't recommend them, but there's been great improvements made on them over the years and some use them sucessfully. I just don't see any point in adding expense and moving parts when fixed heads have been proven to do the job just fine over the years.

Chad

I think I have finally found the min speed this year. I tore my rotator cuff and shot a turkey at 10 yards with a 35lb osage selfbow. This bow shoots about 140fps with 450gr arrow. I hit this turkey in the back and it didn't penetrate all the way but broke his back. I sure wouldn't shoot this combo at deer.

I am not ready to shoot my 50lb-55lb osage yet but hope to be by hunting season.