single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
12-05-2008, 07:46 AM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
I think they aren't needed, but are excellent added insurance. Everyone strives for a perfect shot, but things happen. Animals move, unseen twigs jump in the way and deflect an arrow, Murphy's alive and well in the woods.
In those instances the EFOC and SB hold an edge, pun intended
Doesn't guarantee success, but it certainly can't hurt.
In those instances the EFOC and SB hold an edge, pun intended
Doesn't guarantee success, but it certainly can't hurt.
12-07-2008, 10:22 PM
#22
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
RE: single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
Why you ask?
why?
because compounds and accessories are sold as fast, speed and KE ..... light arrows and mechanical heads = poorer penetrations and it shows in hunting videos
how many people elk hunt with a .243 ? we all know a .243 will kill any elk ....... but most people like 7mm mag and even bigger and the reason is that when the shot isn't perfect, its best to have a setup that compensates and helps in those situations
this deer was shot with a home made TD recurve, 600+/- grains and 2 blade Magnus heads, a 56# bow I believe - about a 7-8 yard shot, almost a perfect downward hit quartering away.
do ya'll notice anything ? blood around the mouth ...... there isn't any and I noticed it first thing when we walked up to it.
long story short, he hit the bottom part of the T of the backbone - penetration was about 1/2" through it and that cut the spinal artery.
great you might think huh ? Not really IMO. VERY lucky and here is why ..... that deer run about 300-350 yards from where it was shot. Not a single drop of blood was found. he saw the deer struggling to get out of its bed after following where he thought it would go in a semi-open creek bottom.
had that deer went into the standing corn ? we'd never have found it
had the arrow drove through the bone and out, we'd have had spinal artery hit and lung hit and blood trail. maybe even a dead in its tracks deer with a broken spine ?
its super easy to use a single bevel instead of double ..... if it makes that much difference why doesnt everyone use them ?
I don't .... I used a 3 blade thunderhead but the whole single bevel thing and penetration haunts me ....
12-08-2008, 06:32 AM
#23
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 686
RE: single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
ORIGINAL: stealthycat II
penetration - watch tv shows and hunting videos and you'll see more often than not 12-20" of arrow sticking out of the deer after the hits.
why?
because compounds and accessories are sold as fast, speed and KE ..... light arrows and mechanical heads = poorer penetrations and it shows in hunting videos
how many people elk hunt with a .243 ? we all know a .243 will kill any elk ....... but most people like 7mm mag and even bigger and the reason is that when the shot isn't perfect, its best to have a setup that compensates and helps in those situations
this deer was shot with a home made TD recurve, 600+/- grains and 2 blade Magnus heads, a 56# bow I believe - about a 7-8 yard shot, almost a perfect downward hit quartering away.
do ya'll notice anything ? blood around the mouth ...... there isn't any and I noticed it first thing when we walked up to it.
long story short, he hit the bottom part of the T of the backbone - penetration was about 1/2" through it and that cut the spinal artery.
great you might think huh ? Not really IMO. VERY lucky and here is why ..... that deer run about 300-350 yards from where it was shot. Not a single drop of blood was found. he saw the deer struggling to get out of its bed after following where he thought it would go in a semi-open creek bottom.
had that deer went into the standing corn ? we'd never have found it
had the arrow drove through the bone and out, we'd have had spinal artery hit and lung hit and blood trail. maybe even a dead in its tracks deer with a broken spine ?
its super easy to use a single bevel instead of double ..... if it makes that much difference why doesnt everyone use them ?
I don't .... I used a 3 blade thunderhead but the whole single bevel thing and penetration haunts me ....
Why you ask?
why?
because compounds and accessories are sold as fast, speed and KE ..... light arrows and mechanical heads = poorer penetrations and it shows in hunting videos
how many people elk hunt with a .243 ? we all know a .243 will kill any elk ....... but most people like 7mm mag and even bigger and the reason is that when the shot isn't perfect, its best to have a setup that compensates and helps in those situations
this deer was shot with a home made TD recurve, 600+/- grains and 2 blade Magnus heads, a 56# bow I believe - about a 7-8 yard shot, almost a perfect downward hit quartering away.
do ya'll notice anything ? blood around the mouth ...... there isn't any and I noticed it first thing when we walked up to it.
long story short, he hit the bottom part of the T of the backbone - penetration was about 1/2" through it and that cut the spinal artery.
great you might think huh ? Not really IMO. VERY lucky and here is why ..... that deer run about 300-350 yards from where it was shot. Not a single drop of blood was found. he saw the deer struggling to get out of its bed after following where he thought it would go in a semi-open creek bottom.
had that deer went into the standing corn ? we'd never have found it
had the arrow drove through the bone and out, we'd have had spinal artery hit and lung hit and blood trail. maybe even a dead in its tracks deer with a broken spine ?
its super easy to use a single bevel instead of double ..... if it makes that much difference why doesnt everyone use them ?
I don't .... I used a 3 blade thunderhead but the whole single bevel thing and penetration haunts me ....
12-08-2008, 10:06 AM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
almost a perfect downward hit quartering away.
Perfect don't go 300 plus yds.
I'm with Chris - got to believe way more deer lost to shot selection and execution then are lost to poor penetration.
Steve
12-08-2008, 02:35 PM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Montgomery IL USA
Posts: 1,231
RE: single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy
I'm with Chris - got to believe way more deer lost to shot selection and execution then are lost to poor penetration.
Steve
I'm with Chris - got to believe way more deer lost to shot selection and execution then are lost to poor penetration.
Steve
12-08-2008, 09:40 PM
#26
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,701
RE: single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
Chris W. have you read Ashby's reports ? I have and I don't think its a marketing gimmick ...
SteveBNy the shot actually was very well placed, heavy spine bone is tough for trad bows to break. the shot he took he made - there wasn't enough ... "something" to hammer the arrow on through I agree. If a single bevelgives, say, 15% additional penetration, and all things stayed the same, I see that arrow combo I described on the above deer killed as being 6" or 8" or more through that deer maybe.
Maybe, its all hypothetical .... but it very much interests me ...
JRW Jason - how the hell are you? Yes, same stealthycat that long argued crossbows on the Bowsite. I haven't seen him shoot his bow in practice so I cannot tell you how well tuned his bow is, and even at that, on a 20 degree morning when you've been still for 2 hours and you're twisted around to your right trying to shoot at a monster buck, can any of us really attest to having perfect release and form in those situations?
But assume it wasn't tuned etc ..... the positive affects of single bevels still remains, right ?
The hit you describe was not even close to perfect.
Perfect don't go 300 plus yds.
I'm with Chris - got to believe way more deer lost to shot selection and execution then are lost to poor penetration.
Perfect don't go 300 plus yds.
I'm with Chris - got to believe way more deer lost to shot selection and execution then are lost to poor penetration.
SteveBNy the shot actually was very well placed, heavy spine bone is tough for trad bows to break. the shot he took he made - there wasn't enough ... "something" to hammer the arrow on through I agree. If a single bevelgives, say, 15% additional penetration, and all things stayed the same, I see that arrow combo I described on the above deer killed as being 6" or 8" or more through that deer maybe.
Maybe, its all hypothetical .... but it very much interests me ...
JRW Jason - how the hell are you? Yes, same stealthycat that long argued crossbows on the Bowsite. I haven't seen him shoot his bow in practice so I cannot tell you how well tuned his bow is, and even at that, on a 20 degree morning when you've been still for 2 hours and you're twisted around to your right trying to shoot at a monster buck, can any of us really attest to having perfect release and form in those situations?
But assume it wasn't tuned etc ..... the positive affects of single bevels still remains, right ?
12-09-2008, 06:29 AM
#27
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 686
RE: single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
ORIGINAL: stealthycat II
Chris W. have you read Ashby's reports ? I have and I don't think its a marketing gimmick ...
SteveBNy the shot actually was very well placed, heavy spine bone is tough for trad bows to break. the shot he took he made - there wasn't enough ... "something" to hammer the arrow on through I agree. If a single bevelgives, say, 15% additional penetration, and all things stayed the same, I see that arrow combo I described on the above deer killed as being 6" or 8" or more through that deer maybe.
Maybe, its all hypothetical .... but it very much interests me ...
JRW Jason - how the hell are you? Yes, same stealthycat that long argued crossbows on the Bowsite. I haven't seen him shoot his bow in practice so I cannot tell you how well tuned his bow is, and even at that, on a 20 degree morning when you've been still for 2 hours and you're twisted around to your right trying to shoot at a monster buck, can any of us really attest to having perfect release and form in those situations?
But assume it wasn't tuned etc ..... the positive affects of single bevels still remains, right ?
Chris W. have you read Ashby's reports ? I have and I don't think its a marketing gimmick ...
The hit you describe was not even close to perfect.
Perfect don't go 300 plus yds.
I'm with Chris - got to believe way more deer lost to shot selection and execution then are lost to poor penetration.
Perfect don't go 300 plus yds.
I'm with Chris - got to believe way more deer lost to shot selection and execution then are lost to poor penetration.
SteveBNy the shot actually was very well placed, heavy spine bone is tough for trad bows to break. the shot he took he made - there wasn't enough ... "something" to hammer the arrow on through I agree. If a single bevelgives, say, 15% additional penetration, and all things stayed the same, I see that arrow combo I described on the above deer killed as being 6" or 8" or more through that deer maybe.
Maybe, its all hypothetical .... but it very much interests me ...
JRW Jason - how the hell are you? Yes, same stealthycat that long argued crossbows on the Bowsite. I haven't seen him shoot his bow in practice so I cannot tell you how well tuned his bow is, and even at that, on a 20 degree morning when you've been still for 2 hours and you're twisted around to your right trying to shoot at a monster buck, can any of us really attest to having perfect release and form in those situations?
But assume it wasn't tuned etc ..... the positive affects of single bevels still remains, right ?
12-09-2008, 01:24 PM
#28
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississippi USA
Posts: 15,296
RE: single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
We must be doing something wrong here in MS. Neither me or anyone I know has had any trouble killing (usually pass-throughs) deer with Ace, Magnus, Ribtek, Wensel Woodsmands, etc.--with bows that cost well under a grand too. I hope to get the pic of the young lady who killed a mature doe with a 32# recurve before long--I've been out of pocket lately with my dad being in the hospital.
I don't doubt Dr. Ashby's testing, but I also don't believe that any whitetail is built like a tank, or that set-ups that have been used regularly to kill elk and moose won't take any whitetail on the planet quickly and efficiently, as long as everything else is correct (tuning, shot placement, etc.).
To me, this seems like trying to find something better to put out a fire that keeps blazing up, rather than finding out what's causing the fire to begin with.
Chad
I don't doubt Dr. Ashby's testing, but I also don't believe that any whitetail is built like a tank, or that set-ups that have been used regularly to kill elk and moose won't take any whitetail on the planet quickly and efficiently, as long as everything else is correct (tuning, shot placement, etc.).
To me, this seems like trying to find something better to put out a fire that keeps blazing up, rather than finding out what's causing the fire to begin with.
Chad
12-09-2008, 02:20 PM
#29
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burleson TX USA
Posts: 6,455
RE: single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
my dad being in the hospital.
Sorry to hear about ya Dad hope he has a speedy recovery.
As for single bevel heads I have been using them for a while and well they are really not needed for thin skinned and small boned animals like deer.
But every little bit helps right
12-09-2008, 05:48 PM
#30
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,076
RE: single bevel - do you believe ? are you buying ?
Bobco...
Whats the Grit on your stone.
if the grit your using doesnt cut....then use a coarser grit.....it shouldnt take an hour to sharpen anything.
and work your way to down to superFine to polish her to a razor.
if your not good at holding an angle...thenengineeryourself a fixture to hold the blade at the correct angle.(doesnt have to be fancy...use your imaginatio... ablock of wood can get it done.)
cut your primary angle with coarse till you get a bur..... nock that off....then go to a finer grit and repeat.
some grits wont produce a bur because they arent cutting the metal... some grits are for Honing/polish....just depends...if your getting a bur then your cutting the metal....if your cutting the metal your getting somewhere.....
if you want a secondary angle then do the same for it.(a secondary angle adds strength to the edge and helps it stay sharp but for a broadhead you only need it to cut something once not 15 times in a row. (good for knives)
it just takes practice....get some old kitchen knives to practice on....with the right tools and practicea guy can get ablade razor sharp in minutes starting with a butter knife (ive seen a guy do it) .you dont need fancy tools just the right tools...and you have to have a feel for it(obtained with practice)...im not the greatest at it....but i gett better every time i sharpen something.
same principals apply to single bevel.....
if you cant find/feel and hold an angle youll never get anything sharp....you canttake a swipeat one angle and the next at another....allthat does is round the edge....and you never get anywhere.
Whats the Grit on your stone.
if the grit your using doesnt cut....then use a coarser grit.....it shouldnt take an hour to sharpen anything.
and work your way to down to superFine to polish her to a razor.
if your not good at holding an angle...thenengineeryourself a fixture to hold the blade at the correct angle.(doesnt have to be fancy...use your imaginatio... ablock of wood can get it done.)
cut your primary angle with coarse till you get a bur..... nock that off....then go to a finer grit and repeat.
some grits wont produce a bur because they arent cutting the metal... some grits are for Honing/polish....just depends...if your getting a bur then your cutting the metal....if your cutting the metal your getting somewhere.....
if you want a secondary angle then do the same for it.(a secondary angle adds strength to the edge and helps it stay sharp but for a broadhead you only need it to cut something once not 15 times in a row. (good for knives)
it just takes practice....get some old kitchen knives to practice on....with the right tools and practicea guy can get ablade razor sharp in minutes starting with a butter knife (ive seen a guy do it) .you dont need fancy tools just the right tools...and you have to have a feel for it(obtained with practice)...im not the greatest at it....but i gett better every time i sharpen something.
same principals apply to single bevel.....
if you cant find/feel and hold an angle youll never get anything sharp....you canttake a swipeat one angle and the next at another....allthat does is round the edge....and you never get anywhere.