Elitist attitude
02-29-2008, 03:35 PM
#141
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississippi USA
Posts: 15,296
RE: Elitist attitude
I've purposely left compounds out of my replies, because that's not what the thread was about. That hasn't changed anything concerning whether or not a crossbow is a bow.
Again, at best, a crossbow is a bow, plus--just like an automatic rifle is a muzzleloader, plus.
That's my opinion--I don't hate 'em, I don't think less of someone because they like them, I've even shot a few and it was fun for a little while.......but they aren't bows.
Chad
Again, at best, a crossbow is a bow, plus--just like an automatic rifle is a muzzleloader, plus.
That's my opinion--I don't hate 'em, I don't think less of someone because they like them, I've even shot a few and it was fun for a little while.......but they aren't bows.
Chad
02-29-2008, 05:08 PM
#142
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Obama made me join the NRA for 5 years !
Posts: 2,181
RE: Elitist attitude
LBR I'll get one more post in then I'll let it die for now
Of course it is what its about. its about anyone looking at another and saying my equipment belongs, yours doesn't. As a trad shooter, I look down on compounds, compounders look down on crossbowers, self bowyers look down on me ........its been that way since compounds opened Pandora's Box of technology hasn't it ?
You don't think they're bows, yet Mississippi does consider them legal archery weapons. True you have to have a permit, but legal archery weapons they are.
You don't think they're bows, 2,000 years says they are.
You don't think they're bows, but several states allow them in general archery - are they bows in one state, then cross the Mississippi and become something else ? No, still bows, just not legal for everyone to use !
After 15 pages I'm settled a bit more into believing in the "let it all in" season. IF it doesn't negatively affect my seasons or bag limits, allow it, because I cannot truly prove that compounds and the like degrade hunting. I think they do, but proving it I cannot.
I DO know hunting and bowhunting is losing the war and ARA's. I know canned hunting, this horn lust that dominates hunting shows and the hunting industry - its killing what hunting is. I think technology plays a big part in all that too. Spend time on tradgang, and you'll see a different kind of people than you will on hunting.net's bowhunting forums. I believe thats because they KNOW a different kind of hunting based soley on the equipment they use and what comes from that.
I've purposely left compounds out of my replies, because that's not what the thread was about. That hasn't changed anything concerning whether or not a crossbow is a bow.
That's my opinion--I don't hate 'em, I don't think less of someone because they like them, I've even shot a few and it was fun for a little while.......but they aren't bows.
You don't think they're bows, 2,000 years says they are.
You don't think they're bows, but several states allow them in general archery - are they bows in one state, then cross the Mississippi and become something else ? No, still bows, just not legal for everyone to use !
After 15 pages I'm settled a bit more into believing in the "let it all in" season. IF it doesn't negatively affect my seasons or bag limits, allow it, because I cannot truly prove that compounds and the like degrade hunting. I think they do, but proving it I cannot.
I DO know hunting and bowhunting is losing the war and ARA's. I know canned hunting, this horn lust that dominates hunting shows and the hunting industry - its killing what hunting is. I think technology plays a big part in all that too. Spend time on tradgang, and you'll see a different kind of people than you will on hunting.net's bowhunting forums. I believe thats because they KNOW a different kind of hunting based soley on the equipment they use and what comes from that.
03-01-2008, 10:16 AM
#143
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location:
Posts: 59
RE: Elitist attitude
I've been browsing through this thread. It seems to have taken on several different views or prespectives. Having started hunting in the late 60's, my first hunting equipment being a longbow, cause that's all there was, longbows or recurves. I really don't understand the elitist attitudes. I have hunted with bows, rifles, shotguns and pistols, through the years. And hunt almost exclusively with my longbow anymore. Not to be an elitist, maybe I am just a romantic old fool, but how I hunt and nostalga is more important to me now - the hunt for the hunt's sake. Ten years ago the age opf the average hunter was 41, today it is 51 and I hope 10 years from now it is NOT 61! We need young people in the outdoor sports. And we need to be united not separated. A hunter should not be judged by what he carries in his hand, but by the values and ethics that he or she carries in their heart and soul, which is intrinsic to one's nature.
03-01-2008, 11:32 AM
#144
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Where the big deer are from, seminole county FL
Posts: 1,435
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Big Duane
is that a banket view ? meaning, what you hold yourslef to, do you also hold others to ?
burniegoeasily yep, you nailed my conflict, I know what you're saying. However, shooting an ACS with carbons is almost the same "shooting" as a self bow with cane shafts - a difference of FPS but other than that, the shooting remains the same doesn't it ?
Matt / PA look back at yourself over the past 5 years. Where you came from as a compound shooter, and where you are now. What you shoot now is dramtically more difficult than a compound. I've bet you $$ you could pick up anyones compound right now, and within minutes shoot better at 50 yards than you can with your stick bow at 25 yards. Compounds are THAT much better, they're designed to be easy, and very shootable, thats why most bowhunters use them.
Which leads me to this thinking - is bowhunting suppose to be that easy ? Compounds are just a wee bit harder than crossbows, there is a solid argument that compounds are actually EASIER, because of their quietness, light mass weight and speeds all combines into one.
Is that what bowhunting is suppose to be ? Easy ? Why or why not ?
When comparing self bows to a Widow, you can still see its very similar. Compounds and crossbows are radically different. Like comparing an 1880's flintlock with loose powder, patches and balls with a 2008 TC Encore,stainless steel, plastic stock,pellets, shotgun primers and 3x12x55 leopuld scope - are they really both muzzleloaders ?
Why doesn't it ?
If you choose a more difficult path, shouldn't it be recognized as such ? Why shouldn't there be a hard line distinction between the difficulty in weapons used ? A compound bow and the hunting that comes from it is NOT the same accomplishments as a recurve/longbow hunt and the hunting that comes from it.
Its not, not one example can I think of that if you remove the compound and replace with a stick bow does the situation become much more difficult, and like you said, the rewards also increase.
Yes, I understand each persons own challenges - its not about that. Its about what is and isn't more difficult, about the continuing progress of technology to easier and better, and the affects it has on bowhunting as a whole.
It is alsomore demanding to be proficient, making the outcomes so much more worth it. The more you put in, the more you get out type of thing.
burniegoeasily yep, you nailed my conflict, I know what you're saying. However, shooting an ACS with carbons is almost the same "shooting" as a self bow with cane shafts - a difference of FPS but other than that, the shooting remains the same doesn't it ?
Matt / PA look back at yourself over the past 5 years. Where you came from as a compound shooter, and where you are now. What you shoot now is dramtically more difficult than a compound. I've bet you $$ you could pick up anyones compound right now, and within minutes shoot better at 50 yards than you can with your stick bow at 25 yards. Compounds are THAT much better, they're designed to be easy, and very shootable, thats why most bowhunters use them.
Which leads me to this thinking - is bowhunting suppose to be that easy ? Compounds are just a wee bit harder than crossbows, there is a solid argument that compounds are actually EASIER, because of their quietness, light mass weight and speeds all combines into one.
Is that what bowhunting is suppose to be ? Easy ? Why or why not ?
When comparing self bows to a Widow, you can still see its very similar. Compounds and crossbows are radically different. Like comparing an 1880's flintlock with loose powder, patches and balls with a 2008 TC Encore,stainless steel, plastic stock,pellets, shotgun primers and 3x12x55 leopuld scope - are they really both muzzleloaders ?
Because I choose trad bows doesn’t make me better than those who don’t.
If you choose a more difficult path, shouldn't it be recognized as such ? Why shouldn't there be a hard line distinction between the difficulty in weapons used ? A compound bow and the hunting that comes from it is NOT the same accomplishments as a recurve/longbow hunt and the hunting that comes from it.
Its not, not one example can I think of that if you remove the compound and replace with a stick bow does the situation become much more difficult, and like you said, the rewards also increase.
Yes, I understand each persons own challenges - its not about that. Its about what is and isn't more difficult, about the continuing progress of technology to easier and better, and the affects it has on bowhunting as a whole.
03-01-2008, 11:36 AM
#145
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Where the big deer are from, seminole county FL
Posts: 1,435
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Big Duane
LBR I'll get one more post in then I'll let it die for now
Of course it is what its about. its about anyone looking at another and saying my equipment belongs, yours doesn't. As a trad shooter, I look down on compounds, compounders look down on crossbowers, self bowyers look down on me ........its been that way since compounds opened Pandora's Box of technology hasn't it ?
You don't think they're bows, yet Mississippi does consider them legal archery weapons. True you have to have a permit, but legal archery weapons they are.
You don't think they're bows, 2,000 years says they are.
You don't think they're bows, but several states allow them in general archery - are they bows in one state, then cross the Mississippi and become something else ? No, still bows, just not legal for everyone to use !
After 15 pages I'm settled a bit more into believing in the "let it all in" season. IF it doesn't negatively affect my seasons or bag limits, allow it, because I cannot truly prove that compounds and the like degrade hunting. I think they do, but proving it I cannot.
I DO know hunting and bowhunting is losing the war and ARA's. I know canned hunting, this horn lust that dominates hunting shows and the hunting industry - its killing what hunting is. I think technology plays a big part in all that too. Spend time on tradgang, and you'll see a different kind of people than you will on hunting.net's bowhunting forums. I believe thats because they KNOW a different kind of hunting based soley on the equipment they use and what comes from that.
LBR I'll get one more post in then I'll let it die for now
I've purposely left compounds out of my replies, because that's not what the thread was about. That hasn't changed anything concerning whether or not a crossbow is a bow.
That's my opinion--I don't hate 'em, I don't think less of someone because they like them, I've even shot a few and it was fun for a little while.......but they aren't bows.
You don't think they're bows, 2,000 years says they are.
You don't think they're bows, but several states allow them in general archery - are they bows in one state, then cross the Mississippi and become something else ? No, still bows, just not legal for everyone to use !
After 15 pages I'm settled a bit more into believing in the "let it all in" season. IF it doesn't negatively affect my seasons or bag limits, allow it, because I cannot truly prove that compounds and the like degrade hunting. I think they do, but proving it I cannot.
I DO know hunting and bowhunting is losing the war and ARA's. I know canned hunting, this horn lust that dominates hunting shows and the hunting industry - its killing what hunting is. I think technology plays a big part in all that too. Spend time on tradgang, and you'll see a different kind of people than you will on hunting.net's bowhunting forums. I believe thats because they KNOW a different kind of hunting based soley on the equipment they use and what comes from that.
03-01-2008, 07:25 PM
#146
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Obama made me join the NRA for 5 years !
Posts: 2,181
RE: Elitist attitude
millerhunter13
why do you look down on crossbows, a bow is a bow, you shouldnt be looking down on what others like, but you should be trying to keep hunting going.
Right ?
You as a compounder look down on crossbows because they aren't the same type weapon you use. I can look down at compounds for EXACTLY the same reasons you look down on crossbows, can't I ?
have you shot crossbows ? They are not weapons that need supertuned, but they don't auto-shoot either. The simplist bow to tune is a recurve, the hardest is a compound IMO. Form with a compound ? LOL ....... hold the pin where you want it and pull the trigger - c'mon I shot compounds for 12+ years, i KNOW the differnces.
I can say I don't have time to shoot a compound (that you say is so much harder to shoot right ? ) and therefore I need the crossbows -
crossbows would be better for the same reasons, right ?
Crossbows in the field give you no more range, they truely don't. I've hunted a dozen states for whitetails, antelope, muleys, black bear, elk, turkey ....... from praries in SD to the Rockies in Colorado to the red bluffs of NM to the farmland of Kansas.
recurve / longbow / compound / crossbows the ranges of shots really never mattered much. 20-30 yards is archery range. The weapon and what its capable of though ....... that REALLY changes the moment of truth when you're ready to release an arrow.
Crossbows and compounds make it so much easier. Its not a gimme, but i can tell you straight up that if you take a crossbow hunting next fall, you'll have no more P&Y bucks within 20 yards because of it. You MIGHT find an easier shot by having that crossbow, but so too is a compound giving that same easy
why do you look down on crossbows, a bow is a bow, you shouldnt be looking down on what others like, but you should be trying to keep hunting going.
Right ?
You as a compounder look down on crossbows because they aren't the same type weapon you use. I can look down at compounds for EXACTLY the same reasons you look down on crossbows, can't I ?
you said that compounds are just a wee bit easier then crossbows, your so wrong their a crossbow is alot easier, it dosnt take the fine tuning like a compound does, and with a crossbow there really isnt form like with a compound or trad bow,
a compound is easier, but not everyone has the time to put in to trad archery, l
I can say I don't have time to shoot a compound (that you say is so much harder to shoot right ? ) and therefore I need the crossbows -
Like me i am just a kid, i dont have every minute for that i have school, work, my truck, all of these things, so a compound would be better, and bow hunting is bowhunting,
trad hunting is like a .410 you have to be able to get a deer in closer and you have to be able to make the shot, the compound is like a 12 ga. alot more range, and is easier to hit a deer with, both are still hard to do.
recurve / longbow / compound / crossbows the ranges of shots really never mattered much. 20-30 yards is archery range. The weapon and what its capable of though ....... that REALLY changes the moment of truth when you're ready to release an arrow.
Crossbows and compounds make it so much easier. Its not a gimme, but i can tell you straight up that if you take a crossbow hunting next fall, you'll have no more P&Y bucks within 20 yards because of it. You MIGHT find an easier shot by having that crossbow, but so too is a compound giving that same easy
03-01-2008, 08:01 PM
#147
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Moravia NY USA
Posts: 2,164
RE: Elitist attitude
Another fact on xbow vs compounds:
IBO (International BOWHUNTERS Org)has a xbow class.
They shoot the same courses as the compounds.
The winning compound scores are ALWAYS HIGHER!!!.
How could that be if xbows are more accurate?
And the xbow shooters shoot from a kneeling, braced position - far more stable then a frrehand compound shot.
Steve
IBO (International BOWHUNTERS Org)has a xbow class.
They shoot the same courses as the compounds.
The winning compound scores are ALWAYS HIGHER!!!.
How could that be if xbows are more accurate?
And the xbow shooters shoot from a kneeling, braced position - far more stable then a frrehand compound shot.
Steve
03-01-2008, 09:55 PM
#148
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,076
RE: Elitist attitude
this is rediculous....[&:]
how many people shoot compounds and dedicate their lives to shooting one , vs say a Crossbow shooter....
very few people use Crossbows compared to Compound bow, and ill guarantee that the people who use crossbows dont spend the time with the equipment necesarry to shoot "high scores"...you know why i can guarantee that?????
Because im the Best.....SUCKA!!!!!!!!!!
andbecause Most people that shoot crossbows are taking the easy way out , Lazyman i dont need to practice aproach....which is fine, a crossbow isnt something that you need to practice much with to be proficient enuff to hunt with...same as a shotgun....sight it in and your ready to rock....all you have to do is know your effective range.
Practice is what makes the Shooter, not just any practice but perfect practice, and thereare plenty of Cats out their that are shooting their compounds 2-3-4-5 times a week.....thats why their scores are higher.
i dont know one guy with a Crossbow that puts that kind of effort into practice.
question forBig Duan your saying your better than Compound shooters.....but you hunt with one???? i dont get it....it doesnt matter if you think your better than compound shooters any way. you know Why?????
Because im the BEST!!!!!
how many people shoot compounds and dedicate their lives to shooting one , vs say a Crossbow shooter....
very few people use Crossbows compared to Compound bow, and ill guarantee that the people who use crossbows dont spend the time with the equipment necesarry to shoot "high scores"...you know why i can guarantee that?????
Because im the Best.....SUCKA!!!!!!!!!!
andbecause Most people that shoot crossbows are taking the easy way out , Lazyman i dont need to practice aproach....which is fine, a crossbow isnt something that you need to practice much with to be proficient enuff to hunt with...same as a shotgun....sight it in and your ready to rock....all you have to do is know your effective range.
Practice is what makes the Shooter, not just any practice but perfect practice, and thereare plenty of Cats out their that are shooting their compounds 2-3-4-5 times a week.....thats why their scores are higher.
i dont know one guy with a Crossbow that puts that kind of effort into practice.
question forBig Duan your saying your better than Compound shooters.....but you hunt with one???? i dont get it....it doesnt matter if you think your better than compound shooters any way. you know Why?????
Because im the BEST!!!!!
03-02-2008, 07:00 AM
#150
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location:
Posts: 279
RE: Elitist attitude
Crossbow: A Medieval weapon popularized the French so they could get their middle finger-less archers back in the war.
I have a copy of Fred Bear's "Archers Bible" laying around here somewhere. In it, there is a chapter dedicated to crossbows. So if Fred Bear recognized them to be archery equipment, so do I.
The thing I hate about this whole thing, is that with a compound bow, all you read in the ad's is "speed, speed, speed" and in the crossbow ads, you read "power, power, power"
And if you ask your average Joe Average why he's buying a crossbow, he's going to tell you he doesn't have all year to put into a craft to miss a deer on opening day.
Traditional archery is more about the art of archery, than the science of fiber and pulley.
Traditional archery is about woodcraft and lore, the "how to" of the more difficult aspects of the hunt.
If you ask me for a solution, here's what I'm going to tell you,
"In Michigan, the archery season is split into two parts. Oct 1thru Nov 15.
Nov 15 thru Nov 30 is firearm season.
Archery resumes Dec1 and runs thru Jan 1st
Muzzleloader (also allowed in firearm is Dec 10 thru Dec 20)
Well, here's what I think.
After firearm season, give the deer a week to settle back down
then, on Dec 7, open a 21 day "primitive arms season"
Bows, crossbows (notice I separate the two), sidelock-only charcoal burners,
heck, shoot a goddamm cannon if you want to.
but no metallic cartridges, smokeless powder,
or in-line ignition, OR OPTICAL SIGHTS "
I have a copy of Fred Bear's "Archers Bible" laying around here somewhere. In it, there is a chapter dedicated to crossbows. So if Fred Bear recognized them to be archery equipment, so do I.
The thing I hate about this whole thing, is that with a compound bow, all you read in the ad's is "speed, speed, speed" and in the crossbow ads, you read "power, power, power"
And if you ask your average Joe Average why he's buying a crossbow, he's going to tell you he doesn't have all year to put into a craft to miss a deer on opening day.
Traditional archery is more about the art of archery, than the science of fiber and pulley.
Traditional archery is about woodcraft and lore, the "how to" of the more difficult aspects of the hunt.
If you ask me for a solution, here's what I'm going to tell you,
"In Michigan, the archery season is split into two parts. Oct 1thru Nov 15.
Nov 15 thru Nov 30 is firearm season.
Archery resumes Dec1 and runs thru Jan 1st
Muzzleloader (also allowed in firearm is Dec 10 thru Dec 20)
Well, here's what I think.
After firearm season, give the deer a week to settle back down
then, on Dec 7, open a 21 day "primitive arms season"
Bows, crossbows (notice I separate the two), sidelock-only charcoal burners,
heck, shoot a goddamm cannon if you want to.
but no metallic cartridges, smokeless powder,
or in-line ignition, OR OPTICAL SIGHTS "
