Martins new trad lineup
 

What do you all think about the use of Laminated woods in bows....

for this year Martin has decided to use Laminated Birch instead of real hardwoods on most all of their models....Hope they go back to real wood soon... them using real wood was one of the big things that separated them from Bear. i'd rather them raise there prices and keep real hardwoods than use the Laminates. not that laminates are bad...it just lacks real charactor.

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

I don't reckon I'm particularly fussed about it. Laminate risers are nothing new and they ARE quite a bit stronger. They are even nice looking if they're well done. Often you can't even tell a laminate riser from a solid piece of wood without doing some real close looking.

Martin's problem is they can't raise their prices any more. They've already got custom bowyers that are offering bows at competitive prices and Samick/AIM is biting at their heels. Any more increase and they'll have priced themselves out of the market.

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

I agree with Art. I don't have one of the modern type of laminates, butI do have a Brackenbury which was one of the first to use a laminate. I can say that it is very strong, although not one of the prettiest.

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

I have two martin bows, a dreamcatcher and a savannah, and can assure them, I will not buy another bow until they go back to hardwood risers. I just don't like the looks of them. And reason I shoot both, is I considered them beautiful.

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

Actionwood, Dymondwood, etc. are more consistent (and predictable), not to mention usually stronger, than natural wood. The looks don't bother me, but I do prefer most natural woods over them.

My guess it was a cost cutting measure, due to what Art mentioned--but that's only a guess. Getting them purty gals to pose with bows ain't cheap, not to mention the cost of getting those ads put in magazines.

I sure would hate to see Martin go under though--they are the only company I know of that maintained and continued to offer a full line of traditional bows when compounds hit the market hard and heavy and put almost allthe rest out of business or switched them over to wheels-only. Even BW went into hibernation for a while. I do know of one other company that stayed the course back 30-some odd years ago, but not too many folks knew about them back then.......;)

Chad

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

well..... i guess its ok for them to cut cost by using Lam wood as long as they can afford to keep put'n hot lil' mama'sholding bows in picture books...cant have your cake and eat it too, but , it is nice every once in a while.


they've been cutting a little cost on their Compunds too(they are still super high quality and well made and put together)....and they are still some of my favorite bows.

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

Did Black Widow make a compound or just stop making bows all together for a while?

Didn't Bear maintain a traditional line through the years?

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

The way it was explained to me about BW.....

When compounds hit the scene hard and heavy (early 70's?), BW sales dropped something like 80%. The Wilson brothers (founders of BW) were around retirement age anyway, and evidently were ready to kick back. The company was sold to one of their bowyers (don't know his name). I don't really know what happened for the next several years, but BW seemed to go into hibernation until Ken Beck bought the company and got them back in the spotlight. The bowyer who bought the company may have kept producing bows, but I've never seen or heard about them.

Bear dropped their trad line for a while--brought a couple back.....oh shoot......mid 90's I think? A buddy of mine bought one of the first ones that came out.

Don't count on my (pitiful) memory for exact details here--if you find a site with more accurate information, I'd appreciate if you'd let me know. I need a refresher!

Chad

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

Martin/Howatt using laminate action wood is nothing new. They've used the grey actionwood in the hunter line for years. This year they've used just a bit more of it.Personally, I think it looks rather sharp. Back in the early to mid/late 90's, there were several models that were actionwood, the mamba, nighthawk, and even the hatfield had a good bit of grey actionwood in it's riser. Exotic wood prices have gone up sharply in the last few years, so it may be a cost containment move, but truthfully, actionwood is far more consistant and stableso it only benefits theshooting characteristics of the bow.

I tend to shoot a bow because it's a good performer. Looks are a secondary thing, but some folks would rather look good than shoot a good performer that they believe is ugly, I guess.:eek:

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

I'd definitely rather shoot good with a pretty bow than to shoot good with one that looks like hammered lizard poop, but that's just one of those aesthetics things.:D

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

Sounds like you need to shoot compounds or maybe just gun hunt?:eek:

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

i'll shoot an ugly bow all day and not be bothered...but when spending 400-700 dollars for a bow, customers tend to be particular and i dont blame them....

im ok with Martin using the lam wood(its nice that they give their bows a new look every few years)as long as they dont stop using real woodor make a seperateseries for realwood bows and charge premium price for them like Bear does with their "Supreme series"

Bear companymust be sick charging $800 for a "supreme super kodiak"
vs. $449 for the elite version of the same bow

i mean come on $350 price difference just because one bow is"exoticwood" and the other bow is LAMwood...raw materials dont cost that much. the wood they use is nice but it isnt anything spactacular.
i think a $200 difference in the series would be acceptable.but not 350$

if you ask me Bears marketing of their Trad bows is horrible

if their gonna charge 350$ for real wood then they could atleast do it with a whole new model. and not have the exact same bow for $350 less. Or they could be real sneaky and do it under whole different brand name.

its hard to beat the bearhunter seriesor Montana longbow for the price...they deffinately got those bows right....

I'll spend the little more money on a Martin/Howatt anyday tho. Bear Company could learn a few things from them.


this is my rant for the day. Sorry Bear company.

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

BC, if you'd seen Chris shoot (I have), I think you would change your mind.

I can see his point--I've seen guys that could hardly hit a barn wall from the inside carry around real pretty and/or expensive bows and show them off, as if they way the bow looked or how much it cost made up for their lack of practice. I also know a guy that I have witnessed out-shoot a factory sponsored "pro" compound shooter--he did it with the most butt-ugly bow I've ever seen. It was/is ugly, but it shoots.

You get down to it, pretty ain't what makes a bow shoot, and if I had to choose I'd take an ugly shooter over a pretty "dog" any day. I do like pretty bows though........

Chad

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

I bet anyday, I could out perform him out to 50 or 60 yards with a compound.I dont' care how good he is.He said performance is his criteria, so just giving a suggestion based off his criteria. A high powered rifle would outperform either, and meet Chris's criteria for hunting which was performance first. I wasnt' trying to be smart, just pointing out that his point of view might have some kinks.

I didn't pick traditional based off of performance alone. I picked it because of simplicity, and speed of shot. I was hog hunting a few years ago with a compound, and thought to myself, how nice it would be to have a longbow when I was trying to aim up close and trying to get to full draw and get a pin on the pig as he was running at me. I then saw the nice woods some are made of and I was hooked. And I like nice wood weather it be a piece of furniture or hardwood floors that are freshly refinished.

All of you guys can try to sell me on the idea that you like performance alone, but clearly, you guys are not telling the full story when I see what bow you shoot. Much faster material out there like the DAS bows are made of or some of the hoyts. And then I see others on hereshoot snake skin on thier longbows.

Guys, this is just my opinion, nobody has to get upset because its not inline with thiers. I mean its a given, we want to shoot a bow well. Thats common knowledge. I was just about ready to get rid of my dreamcatcher, because I couldn't get it fly well even though it is a good looking bow. I am just looking for both.

Guys if you like Martins new bows, go out and buy one. I ain't stopping you. And don't let my opinion stop you.

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

Actually, I hunt with a rifle, muzzleloader and a bow. I like being a well rounded hunter.Lately, I've been paying more attention tothe mz, but that's just my mood at the moment. Now, the statement I made about performance was relating to recurves as far as this discussion goes. I do have a compound but it hasn't been hunting in over 10 years. I do break it out and shoot a few through it on occassion, just for giggles. During the archery season, I perfer the simplicity of a recurve orlongbow as well. To clarify what I meant by performance, in relaton to recurves and trad bows in general,is the overall feel of the bow, not just raw speed.Thoughspeed isn't a bad thing, when it comes with good feel andoverall forgivness in design. Now, I'll be the first to admit that I appreciate a nice piece of wood, buta bows looks arenota priority whenI'm choosing what to buy. In the many years I've been shootingtraditional equipment, I'vehad a few bows that shot no where near as good as they've looked.They didn't stay in the stable very long.

Oh come on BC, you were too trying to be smart :D. I know I was in my response to your firstpost.:D I should have clairfied things more in my statement though.

I'm not going to argue that point. I can out shoot myself at those distances with a compound. I've done it on many occassions.




The first is a camo dipped Martin Hunter. Nice shooting bow, but you cant really call the camo dip pretty.
The second is has become my "go to" bow and it's the one I shoot the most now. I just picked it upa few months ago. It's a mid 1970's Hoyt Pro-medalist with a 16" metal riser. I've got a few other tradbows that'll shoot a little faster through the chronograph, but this littleHoyt as them all beat in overallfeel and shootability. More than likely, it'llmake the rounds with me during IBO 3D this Spring.I think it'sa rather handsome bow,but I know many will disagree. Some might not even call it "traditional" being it has ametal riser :D. I do shootit off the shelf though. Now, You should see my barebow recurve rig with the elevated rest and stabilizer. It's really ugly.

I won't bebuying a new martin anytime soon. Their selection of riser woods not being the issue, but rather the overall price of their bows.To many other excellent bowyers out there making great products that costs a good bit less. Plus, if I buy a new bow anytime soon, the little lady won't be happy.

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

I do too. I like my guns and like being able to use them. I like archery more. Point I was making is I want both and thing both beauty and performance is very attainable.

No, your bows are not for me. But thats me. I am sure your very good with them. Your happy, I am happy, thats what matters.

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

Chris covered it pretty well. Obviously I'm not trying to get you to buy a Martin or Bear, I just see both sides of the coin--and I know Chris knows his stuff.

I've set up as a vendor at a lot of places. I've seen guys look HARD at a bow--I mean check it out from one end to the other. After the inspection, they asked about the price--when I told them, they put the bow down and walked off. I have no doubt if I'd quoted a price several hundred dollars higher than I did, the bow would have sold on the spot. Another vendor I know set out some arrow shafts at a shoot--had them priced cheap, because he got a deal on them. Didn't sell a one all weekend. On Sunday (last day of the shoot), he jacked the price up just to see what would happen--sold out in no time flat. A local "trading post" had an old game box full of old, rusty tools--had them priced something like 50 cents each--no takers. Changed the price to something like $5 each, sold them like crazy.

My point being is people are goofy, for the most part. Most think that if it costs more, looks better, or has afancier package it's supposed toautomatically be a lot better.

I'd bet you could take a plain-jane bow that shot like a rocket, price it at $100, and lay it on a table next to a beautiful bow that shot like crap and price it at $800, and 9 times out of 10 the pretty bow is going to sell first, and the plain bow may not sell at all.

Again, I like pretty woods, but pretty isn't the determining factor. I like a fast bow, but speed isn't the be-all end-all either. I've shot most of the bows that claim to be the absolute fastest on the market today, and I don't own any of them. Not because I can't get one, they just didn't shoot that well for me. Heck, there's at least one or two I could get at a bargain because I have a bussiness connection. They were really nice bows, just not the bows for me.

Chad

RE: Martins new trad lineup
 

I have to agree with Chad. Damon Howatt was one of the premier bowyers during the "heyday" of archery as a sport. When wheels arrived, traditional archery took a huge nosedive in popularity. When Martin took the reins from Damon Howatt, they kept not only the name, but the plant, the bowyers,and a guynamedLarry Hatfield.

Through the late 70s, all of the 80s, and well into the 90s before traditional archery began to regain some of it's former steam, Martin continued to offer a solid line of traditional bows, built in the same plant where Damon Howatt built them himself, which I believe still serves the same purpose today.

Martin has always produced quality archery equipment. Perhaps this is one of the reasons they picked up the Howatt line to begin with. Economics and availability ofhigh-character naturalwoods most certainly play a part.

My guess is in order to maintain the Howatt line on something other than a custom-shop basis orfocussoley on their compound line, the solution to use quality wood laminatesmade sense in order to maintain cost while alsomaintaining Howatt quality,stillmakingthem affordable to the masses.

The first traditional bow I bought was an X-200 recurve for around $170 in the 90s. It probably costsdouble that now, give or take. I still own several Martins, and a few Bears,though my primary bow is a Chek-Mate Hunter II. Got a hard-hitting90s era Gail Martin Nighthawk that I still enjoy, a 90s era Hatfield TD (both of which had plenty of actionwood).

Unless they have changed their policy, I believe you can contact Martin direct and have traditionalbows made to order. If this is still the case, the discerning archer can still have a bow that pleases in both performance and appearance.

It is certainly disappointing, but the good news is that Martin continues to offer the Howatt line of bows to the present and next generation of archers. Ibelieve even Damon himself would approve of that!

... my apologies for rambling, used more than my two-cents worth.

Blessings!