RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

I know you do.;)

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

You should keep this one tiny point in mind when you start thinking along those lines... Guys like Jordan, et al, are NOT hunting for the sense of accomplishment. Well, maybe they are on some minor level but that's not their prime reason. They are doing it in order to satisfy their sponsors, dazzle the ignorant and make money. After every sentence they utter in their videos you could add another line: "See what you could do if you just buy the stuff I use or pay to hunt this ranch?"

I don't like it so I do what everyone else who doesn't like it should do. Or, rather, should NOT do. I DO NOT watch their shows or videos. I DO NOT buy their products or the products their sponsors make. I DO NOT give them my money so they can turn it around and put even more mind numbing garbage on video.

Besides, all their propaganda is aimed at people who don't mind wasting a buttload more money than I'm willing to spend. It's the money they're after and they could care less whether it comes from a guy busting his guts for an hourly wage or a suit with a salary. ;)

You don't have to think it's true. It IS true. Psychologists long ago recognized that aspect of human behavior.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Arthur PJerden and others might not hunt like a blue collared hunter does, or even for the same purpose ......... but that sense of accomplishment can dwindle and be watered down none the less by the means in which the end results are had, you know ?

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Buster T, I agree with you, if you are only looking at the extremes, when you think that lack of effort means lack of satisfaction. But at some point as you add more difficulties there is a sense of accomplishment. Jordan is not using a rifle (well usually) he is mostly hunting with a bow or smokepole. That is a higher degree of difficulty than the "blue collar" hunter that hunts an over-hunted parcel of land with dogs and just jumps out of his truck and throws a hail of bullets at any deer that bolts across a field. (I've seen these types of "hunters") There are all kinds of gradients of difficulty on the scale of hunting and to look down on one type because your style is at a "higher" grade of difficulty just seems silly. Everyone is different in means, ability, and interests. For me there most certainly is a level of difficulty where there is a point of diminishing returns on the sense of satisfaction in relation to the level of difficulty. There is for you too, or you'd be hunting deer with a fire-hardened stick with nothing but a loincloth on. We all fall at different places on the spectrum and have different levels of appreciation for difficulty.

As for the original posting; it seems like circular reasoning to me. You (TJ) complain about "star" hunters making videos and bemoan the lack of "blue collar" hunter videos. But the minute they are successful hunters they are then disqualified from being considered "blue collar". The thing to remember is that the person has to be able to make a living making these videos. It's not a hobby.They have to be able to create a quality product and with enough frequency to pay the bills. I'm not arguing that this can't be done in a new, innovative approach that isn't so "pre-packaged" but the method they are using is the most obvious, path-of-least-resistance, approach available. You have to consider the circumstances these videos are being created in. The only viable alternative you would have that may satisfy you would be a voluntary, free collection of amateur video makers. Youtube for hunting, so to speak. There's a business idea for you. Put it together and maybe you can make some serious money. But then you won't be "blue collar" anymore, and may have to quit hunting.:D J/K

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

You miss the point. Most of us are recreational hunters and, from that point of view, I can't agree with you more. However...

When hunting is your business, you have to gage your accomplishment by different parameters. Namely the quarterly financial statement. If these guys don't put brown on the ground so they can have SOMETHING on video to show their sponsors' products work, they don't put beans on the table.

Bottom line - and I know most all of 'em would publicly deny it till their dying breath but it doesn't change the realities of running a business - they gage their accomplishments by the size of their bank accounts.

Sometimes I wonder... Are they slapping each other on the back and acting so happy because they got a deer? Or because they finally got something they'll get paid for? Or because "this sponsor's piece of crap product finally WORKED!" Or maybe all the above?

Know what I mean?

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Arthur P its my opinion they are a disgrace to bowhunting and hunting in general, those who use hunting as a means to profit, because inevitably, the quest for bigger horns leads to things that are going to be deemed unethical, ie Noel Feather, Glen Berry etc etc.

Money ruins everything, thats almost a universal true

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

If you want it bad enough, you will find a way. I wanted to go to ND to mule deer hunt, single income family, wife, 3 kids. I got the support of my wife, then got a seasonal second job and saved the money. Bellyache all you want,about the oppurtunities that others get, cause with that attitudeyou will never get any...

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Now,I agree with this. I worked so hard thisyear finding a 8pt I have seen a few times. I finally got a shot at him at 20 yards, and thru the guts. I looked for 8 hours for him. And finally found him to finish him off. He is on the wall. He is only 107 deer with deductions but man, he is the finest kill Iever had. I will always rememberthat dayofharvesting this deer.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

and if you kill/killed a doe, that deer would be more of a trophy in my eyes than if you'd paid an outfitter $3500 to take you toa private ranch and first morning say "here, he comes in to the tank at 7:38 am for a drink" and you draw and shoot a 160" buck.

bigcountry did Hell freeze over today ? :D

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Well, we did get 3/4" of pure ice last night in the MD/PA area.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

BusterT I do agree most kids that work for something will take care of it. I do get pissed with how money affects how we hunt or where we can hunt. The man with big money can buy or lease what most of us can't afford. Our club has lost prime land we worked 20 plus years getting sweet, when the Doctor offered 10 times more for the land than we were paying, we had leasted this land for 20 years. Loyilty does not mean a hill of beans to most these days, money talks you know what I mean. I also hunt with a compound , but I want a change and try my reflex, just to try it??? I love to hunt and talking to others who share that passion. Bigdaddy

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

RIGHT THERE, bigdaddy. You just put your finger right down in the big middle of the real problem. That's just one of thousands of similar stories, where people with long term leases have had the property jerked out from under them by big bankrolls.

We're beginning the process to go European, where the wealthy elite are the only ones who can afford to go hunting. I don't care how hard a bluecollar fella saves, how many jobs he works, how much support he gets from his loved ones, there will eventually come a point where he simply cannot come up with the cash that a multi-millionaire can flop down for hunting, without so much as batting an eye.

Take the high lease prices, combine that with urban sprawl and Mr Bluecollar is, or SHOULD be, increasingly disturbed about his ever increasing LOSS OF OPPORTUNITY.

In fact, the entire hunting industry better wake up. Bluecollars make up all but a tiny fraction of their sales every year. What happens to their sales and profits when bluecollars don't have anywhere to go and use their products? People who don't own a yacht sure as the devil don't buy yachting supplies. If they don't golf, they don't go buy a new set of clubs every few years. By the same token, if they can't go hunting, they won't be buying hunting gear.

Are there enough people with deep pockets to support the entire hunting industry, as it stands today? So doubtful that it's probably impossible. How many companies will survive when bluecollars are finally driven out of the woods?

That's the problem with this class distinction stuff, as I see it.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Just to add to the topic, let's though the Government into the mix. Property tax on land is increasingly rediculous.

Here is just an example, on the land that own, but not reside on, I would have to charge around $40 an acre for a lease just to recoup my property taxes (I don't lease the land). All I really use the land for is hunting and a few getaway weekends during the summer with the family. In some ways I feel the $10 an acre lease (that's what they get around here)isa real bargain.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

So is it bad to be a millionaire, or bad to be sponsored by an archery company, bad to make a living off of the thing you love to do the most? I started out as the only person in my family who ever graduated high school. (parents & 6 siblings). Went to work as a machinist, joined the Air Force and got a degree in accounting. Got a degree in Quality Engineering, got a degree in Mechanical Engineering. Worked as a Quality Engineer, Engineering manager, V.P. of Administration and now own the largest contract inspection facility in North America. I've never been on a guided hunt but I hunted and killed bull elk, black bear, mulies and tons of whitetails in 3 states. The most I ever spent on any of those hunts was my license cost and gas. I'm considered a millionaire, I ran my own archery shop & sporting goods store so I made my living off the thing I love to do the most. If an archery company came up to me and said they would pay me to hunt and use their equipment...get out of my way. I just happen to know that there's years of personal sacrifice that has to be done up front before anybody wants you and I'm not willing to make that kind of sacrifice like the rest of them. As for the guy who said Chuck Adams is blue collar? Think about it for a minute. What kind of job does he have that working only 9 months allows him to go to Alaska on a $20,000+ hunt, $15,000+ africa hunt and $5,000+ western hunt in one year?

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

The difference between us and Europe, is that many states have vast ammounts of public lands (state and federal) - maybe not PRIME hunting like RealTree leases, but its hunting.

Nobody said that. Ever.

That sounds like you EARNED those animals.



Chuck Adams started out VERY Blue Collar, he paid for a lot of his Super Slam himself. He chose hunting over everything else in his life, very sad to me, but he chose.


longbowman2 I would hazard a guess that nowdays, a large percentage of the really big bucks killed and shown around, are grown deer. And by that, I mean they are either high fenced farm animals, or they are on such a big parcel of leased lands (supplementally fed to the extreme) that they're not even comparable to public lands animals or non-grown deer.

You can go to EBAY and buy a 240" whitetail, no problems. You want a 400" bull elk ? I can buy one this week. You want 1,000 acres in central KS ? Done. Money will get you all those things, and many, many more.

Money will not buy respect from your peers. Money will not by self-satisfaction and it won't by a sense of accomplishment. All those big bucks taken on high fenced places and intensely managed ones are hollow trophies that equate to shooting an Angus Bull in old farmer McDonald's pasture.

You sound like you have the same convictions and beliefs longbowman2- I bring home $60,000 a year, you bring home $1,000,000 a year, yet neither of us go on guided hunts, high fenced hunts, or any of the such. Why ?

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

BusterT, First of all go abck and read my answer to your post on the ehtics thing. Secondly, I already like you and would love to meet you at a Trad event somewhere.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

That's at least 10 times cheaper than you'll find any lease for in Texas, and then you're probably limited on how many people you're allowed to bring in and hunt with you, without paying extra. Many places charge by the hunter, say $1000-3000 each. Kinda hard to take your kids along with you when you have to ante up another grand or three per each.

Many of the guys in my club go out of state to hunt because it's cheaper than trying to get a lease here at home.

And, longbowman, not every state has vast tracts of public hunting land. Texas land is 98% privately owned. Much of the public land is park area and not open to hunting. A bunch more is classified 'multi-use' and is practically worthless for deer hunting. It's easier to find equestrians, campers, trash and litter than deer tracks. Very little is left over just for hunting. Not to mention, the way the federal gov't is trying to sell off public land, many states will wind up with much less in the near future.

Don't disregard the problem just because it doesn't affect you.... yet. Some of us are closer to it than you are, but you're standing in the middle of the tracks and the train is coming.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Yep, we are still one of the cheaper states. And landowners are actually just starting to due leases, we are more in an infant stage around here. My (2 of them) friends lease around 200 acres (all wooded)for $1800. And that's annual. I let them hunt my property in exchange for hunting on their lease. I don't know about any limits imposed.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Texas is a poor man's nightmare to try and hunt, I lived all over that state from Corpus Chrisit to Belton to Dallas. I like the state, hate that it doesn't have public lands like AR does. Great fishing though, lots of lakes, go figure that. The Texas Parks and Wildlife should try and secure a lot of WMA's or something ........ they gotta have some $$$$$$$

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Daddy Warbucks M. Rockafeller here, Alpha's not in...

All you peasants dont deserve to hunt....you are just here formy amusment becauseI allow it !!!! All of you low end bottom feeders should be caged up....your lucky to have anything at all, let alone hunting privledges...dont you have some slop to cook, or toilets toscrub....get back to work, i hightly doubt that you havepermission to be viewing this forum!!!!so just shut up, bow down and lick my BOOT!!!!!!

Peasants hunting:eek:pfffffff, what a joke this country has become.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Sounds like a Hmong view to me ...... :eek:

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

what do you mean by "Hmong"? i gooooggggled it and this is what i found:D.....by the way Daddy Warbucks m Rockafeller statement was a joke, continue the debate its good....sad thing is there are people that actually think like that left in the world.

By Lamont H. Thao
[email protected]
20 July 2000
This short article is a response to the Author, Chan, in regard to the book Hmong means Free. This article is not to criticize but to clarify the misunderstanding of the meaning of the word "Hmong". Chan has stated that "The word Hmong means 'free'" (1994:3). Let me begin by saying that the word Hmong does not mean free. Hmong, like other minority groups around the world, is just a group of people whose lifestyle often clashes with the dominant groups. Currently, millions of Hmong still live in china and through out the world. Graham did research in China and noticed that the Chinese called the Hmong "Miao" which means sons of the soil; however, the author also asserted that the Miao called themselves Hmong. The term "Miao" has been indiscriminately applied to other non-Chinese groups (1954:1). I do not know who coined and translated the word "Hmong" to mean "free". However, I am sure most of the literatures found in libraries that contain the word "Hmong" either are recent or are from the group of Hmong who used to live in Laos. Very few works have been written by Hmong from other countries such as China, Thailand, etc.
In the book entitled Hmong Means Free, Chan did not cite any source that might support such translation. As a Hmong educator, I know that the Hmong people have not gotten anything for free nor have they ever been freed. The content of the book Hmong Means Free tends to perpetuate the consistency of the Hmong persistent plight to gain autonomy. The oppression and persecution of the Hmong dated as far as its history. In China according to the written literature and oral history, the Hmong people had fought for their freedom but continued to be oppressed by the dominant group. Laos is a good example of such oppression because it was a recent case history, and many elders are now living evidence of that history.

I remember reading some of Dr. Dao Yang's works during my graduate research in 1993 at Mankato State University. So far as I know, Dr. Yang, a respective member of the Hmong community in the twin city in Minnesota, has asserted that Hmong means "free man" or "those who must have their freedom and independence" (1979). I called Dr. Yang and had a long conversation with him in which he had no concrete evidence to support his translation¯that the word Hmong means "free man" or "free people." Other authors have used such translation as well (Bertrais, 1977; Knoll, 1982; Santoli, 1988). Many writers tend to overlook the simplicity of the meaning of the word "Hmong". Many works including Chan's show a historical sketch of the Hmong; however, no attempt has been made to clarify the translation of the word "Hmong". As I recall, Yang might be the first Hmong to label the word "Hmong" to have such meaning as "free man" or "free people". When I questioned him, Dr. Yang said that its because Hmong want to be free and to roam without having anyone controlling them and interfering with their lives. I would recommend that anybody who uses the word "Hmong" to mean "free" either have to change such translation or to do a more elaborate and thorough research. I am sure if given the chance people would want to be free and independent; however, wanting and meaning are two totally different things.
The name "Hmong", like the name of any other groups of people, has no abysmal meaning. It is just a name given to a group of people. Let me give you some example to illustrate my point. For instance, the word "America" derived from an Italian merchant and navigator named Amerigo Vespucci who discovered the West, which now is known as America or the "American". Likewise, the word "Indian" was given as a label for the Native-American because the early explorer got lost and thought that they had reached the East Indies. Another example, the word "Chinese" cannot be translated either. The Webster's Third New International Dictionary defines "Chinese" as "a native or inhabitant of China or one of his descendants."

It is true that the Hmong people have struggled to gain autonomy from the larger and more powerful groups. Often, which resulted in Hmong being labeled as: "Savage", "Barbarous", "Cat", etc. In certain situations, labeling may have no detrimental consequences. In others, labeling people is another clever way of criticizing and classifying them as less humans than others (see E. B. Tylor). Now that changing the title of Chan's book might be adamantine, hopefully future researchers and educators who wish to publish an article or a book about the "Hmong" would carefully consider its correct meaning and usage. Although many authors meant well, we as researchers and educators need to do more research before accepting something to be true.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

MEN !!!
Listen up !!! Unless you have money to "BLOW"!!your hunting as you may have known it for many years is about "OVER' !!! The "wealthy" white collar boys are gonna own everything andtake our Blue collar "RIGHT" to reap from what we have sown since the times of SPARTICUS !! B.S. you say ??? When was the last time you read a Bowhunter Magazine and read a story from a Garbage man, a factory worker,steel worker,a school janitor, ect, and read about his Trip to IOWA,KANSAS,ALASKA,AFRICA To hunt game ?? My point is, unless you have Money You and your kids will have no where to hunt because everyone who has money will own the land that you as a Blue Collar citizen has busted his back for ,"WILL BE GONE"!! and owned by the task master, Rise up men !!! we pay state taxes andFederal Taxes at astandard that is PAYING forTHE WHITE COLLARpeople to OWN ,HUNT,AND POST The Land "WE PAID FOR "!!! With our sore backs and sweat AND YOUKnow hat I mean VERN !!
Tj

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Well, man go back to school. Get an education. Chase your dream. The American way. I don't own any land. I don't do leases. I hunt state parks. But I sure don't sit here and whine and cry. In fact, most blue collar workers I know do have leases.

TJ, whats your deal man. You said all this crap before. What are you getting at?

By the way, you said you were a prison guard. Did you build the prison? Did you blacktop its grounds? Did you raise its fenses? Or are you a white collar guard? Do you have a sore back sweating all day guarding?

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

hehehehe. Well said bigcountry. I don't know what his point is, it seems to go round and round. But I would like to say Jr that my and our for fathers are the ones who really broke there backs for us to have what we have today. Yes we may sweat and do some kind of manual labor, if you can call it that. But we don't know what real back breaking work really is. I know you don't bust your tail being a prison guard, My sister is a sgt at Oklahomas max security prison in Mclaster, and I know they don't break a sweat to often. Unless you get worn out doing a cell check or drinking coffee. My point is made none of us kill ourselfs at our jobs in this day and age.Hard work will move you and yours up the ladder if you know what I mean that goes for all of us. Not all of working men make the kind of money the Bill Gates does. I would like to say I would not like your job at all but you would not like mine. every one has to do something to make a living. bigdaddy

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Craig I live5 to 15 minutes away from 21,000 acres of state land broken up into 3 different areas. I have some of the most fantastic turkey hunting, duck hunting, goose hunting, squirill hunting and bowhunting for whitetail deer you could ask for. I feel fortunate to have this kind of hunting out my backdoor, I have forty acres of private ground to hunt but usually end up hunting the public ground because of the abundance of game. I admit it can be challenging to hunt public ground but the rewards can be worht it, instead of complaining about lack of hunting get out and scout and find the game, it is out there if you are willing to put some effort into it.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

BIGCOUNTRY,
LOL, NO ! I didn,t sweat building it ! I just sweat the threat of being spit on,have fecies and urine that is infected with aids and hep-c, thrown at me, not to mention being shanked , or cut with a shaving razor that has been melted into the end of a toothbrush so yeah I sweat, Go get an education ??? lol Iam blue collar mister! I joined the United States Army in 1981 AFTER GRADUATING High School andbecause my Dad was a steel worker my mom was a nurse and they had 4 boys at home, where was I gonna get the money ?? And by the way I was in combat in 1983 as an A.B. Ranger from fort lewis WA., YEP SWEATING AGAIN ! I don,t remember to many Doctors and lawyers kids at the ranger battallion serving thier "BIG COUNTRY" LOL,, IAM 43 and got a masters at the school of hard nocks, and worked for everything I got just like all the other Blue collar working dirty jobs stiffs. I keep responding because guys like yer self think its a non worthy subject and reply with sarcasim, Iam permitted to reply back right ? The point was Ide like to hear more in the magazines about guys like myself and thier hunting excersions instead of guys that spend money just because they can, got it ? lol
Tj

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Beehunter,
Hold on ! I hunt every chance i get and am very successfull I might add, Ive killed bear,deer,turkey And everything else under the sun in PENNA, i GET PLEANTY of time to hunt and do so. I wish some of you guys would read the original post before you reply to a thread, That way I wouldn,t have to look like Iam going ROUND and ROUND Huh guys ?
Tj

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

No, no, I see it differently. Your managment. You guard. Nothing wrong with it. But your management. You don't lay bricks, pour foundations, or put roofing on. Your a manager of people. Dangerous, I agree. So you can say a white collar dangerous management job.

Ok, at this point, your blue collar. I am with ya. But this is before you were managment, or as they say "the man".

So what are we supposed to do about it? Why not go out and hunt, and quit sittin down looking for something to read? I don't know what to tell ya man. Your going to have to find your own way in life. I think your upset cause you management now, and you used to be good ole blue collar like your dad. Now, your just management. Be proud your white collar management. Nothing wrong with that. You got a respectful white collar job. If you don't like it, its america, you have the right go out and get a proud garbage man job, or a mason, or carpenter. Nobody is holding you against your will to stay a white collar manager.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

By the way, same place I and most people get the money. You work for it. Worked the coal mines and lumber yards, and put me thru school.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

You mean the one where you started off by insulting the Wensels?

Pretty clear what the thread is intended to be.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

I was just trying to make the point that there are still alot of public opportunitys to hunt public ground.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

LOL,
Insulting the "WENSELS" LOL You don,t have a clue mister !!I Love the WENSEL BROTHERS!!!! OBVIOUSLY ! You guys just wish I was bashing you ! but NO ! Yer not that good and never will be! And thats a

"TAKE"
TJ

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Walks like a duck -
Smells like a duck -
Looks like a duck -
Must be a dog.

Wishing for your bash - nah, I'll take the poke in the eye with a stick instead.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

oh well...i dont get it....you guys are hairlareus....

i dont know who the Wensels are and i still dont know who Tred Barta is....im lost i guess.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Why not come in this forum with a little respect for everyone. I mean you have been on a roll since you arrived. I can see it from a 18 year old, but not a 43 year old man.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

BIG COUNTRY !
"RESPECT"???? I show it where it is earned ! you haven,t earned nothin FROM me and you and your cronnies have done nothin but prove to me what kinda peopleand hunters you are ! YUPPIES! ??? what a joke ! Sorry I tapped your thin White egos and raised a pimple on yer CRYSTAL CLEARchins LOL
Tj

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Whatever man. Never seen a 43 year old ever act so childish. Guess you have nothing better to do.

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

BIG,
My very first thread and post wasabout how ide like to read more stories in magazines about working stiffs and thier hunting excersions, You and a few others attacked me with sarcasim and rhetoric, and when I reply back with the same! all the sudden You guys act like the football player on the field that did nothing wrong and the guy who responded gets the penalty,! I only mirror respect,and disrespect.
Tj

RE: The Blue Collar Bowhunter !
 

Actually, you didn't post just "to read more stories in magazines about working stiffs and thier hunting excersions". You had to add, "Traditional Bowhunting has been YUPPIED ! AS well as all bowhunting period." Now, all of us here are trad. bowhunters. Ok, then you went on some rant "That most of our magazines we read are filled with stories aboutDoctors ,lawyers". I have yet to meet any trad. hunter that is a lawyer or doctor. Maybe you can point them out sometime. i read primitive hunter, and Trad. bowhunter, and yet to read that some bowhunter is a lawyer or doctor. But you won't quit there. You post again

"Unless you have money to "BLOW"!!your hunting as you may have known it for many years is about "OVER' !!! The "wealthy" white collar boys are gonna own everything andtake our Blue collar "RIGHT" to reap from what we have sown since the times of SPARTICUS !!"

You have no basis for the post. You have no credibility. Heck, you don't even make sense. I don't even know too many white collar people that hunts or even has a lease. The whole eastern Shore of MD is leased up by mostly blue collar workers. At least most of the leases I see. Maybe up there near NYC where your from its that way.I don't know.