Arthur P

Okay, Chad.... How 'bout if I say it like this then: Where you can get good performance with a wider range of arrow weights using a reflex/deflex longbow, you need to shoot a heavier arrow to get the most out of a Hill style longbow.

Does that work for you? I'm still not sure I'm saying what I want to say though. It's not often that I know what I mean but can't find the right words to express it.[&o]

dkeener

This heavy longbow thing is getting interesting. Whileinquiring about a 105lb HH on ebay, I got offered a 176lb HH or should I say THE 176 lb HH that Gary Sentman used to break Hill's draw record in 1975. Gary has kept the bow all these years and has decided to sell it. Guess that record stood until last year. Not sure if I want to buy it though as I really don't want to even think about trying to pull it - I can envision a serious shoulder injury if my macho side takes over. That is presuming that I can even find someone else to help me string that sucker.

LBR

Art, I just re-read my post and I buggered it up. When I said "I'm still not getting it. Art, are you saying that aHH bow with heavy arrows is more efficient than abow with light arrows?"I meant to say "a HH bow with heavy arrows vs. a HH bow with light arrows". I think I understand what you mean tot say--or something like that! [8D] It makes a lot more sense that way anyhow--that design just isn't as efficient with lighter arrows, but will transfer more of the bow's energy into a heavier one.

Something else I thought of--I'll have to watch it again to be sure of the bow weight, but Fred Bear killed an elephant with one arrow from his 75# (I believe it was 75#) recurve--and this was well before the time of super strings, carbon arrows,and concave limbs. If an old 75# Bear recurve will do the job on an elephant, well..........

Chad

Lilhunter

First off, a wesley special just found it's way to my house while I was out on my last trip. To say the least I was apprehensive about this 'handshock' associated with the HH line. To be honest this bow shoots quite nice, comparable to my old checkmate crusader in that regards. I have yet to get out to any distance with it, been unpacking and putting gear up for the year (unfortunatly hunting season for me is about over). My arrows are not heavy by any means,565 to 572 finished weights.

I also have a big 5 on the way. Sorry Chad I need a longbow and Marc wasn't coming through or answering phone lines. Love curves but love longbows better.

Next I want to address that photo you showed Chad. I read that comment on if you hit the shoulder you are out of the kill zone, bow weights bad hits etc. My big doe of 00 was shot with that old 60lb crusader. Forwhatever reason I caught the back edge of the shoulder, punched through, hit ribs on the far side and stuck out, my arrow promptly broke in 3 pieces. I questioned my shot even though I thought I saw the doe go down. No it wasnt a center lung shot which we all are after but I did, due to angles from treestand and a broadside animal whose leg was back slightly, managed to catch the top 1/3rd of the close lung and closer to center punched the off side lung. A good blood trail and a 60yard recovery ensued. That picture doesnt look right to me, the shoulder is not that high in the body cavity and DOES cover some of the vital areas. These are not shots we plan on doing but it CAN happen. I dont think an 80 or 100+ pound bow will fix the solution however a slightly heavier, (notice I didn't say extremely heavier), bow can make the difference between a dead animal and a wounded one. That also depends on the animal's size (ie moose, whitetail etc). arrow flight, broadhead design sharpness failure if it happened, etc. So jumping up in weight to that extreme is not only unessicary it's not worth it compared to the other things you can do to prevent or ensure you arrow does it's job.

Btw I'll put that heavy arrow test through my wesley and big5 when the 5 arrives and get back to ya.

BobCo19-65

Do you happen to have a link to that. I'd like to take a look.

Martin Vision, good old red elm limbs I believe.

LBR

I haven't been able to find the link--sorry--I read about it on another site where Larry Hatfield posts.

Chad

longbowman

I'm actually enjoying this thread! The talk about hitting shoulders still amazes me somewhat. I don't know of a bone on a "deer" that will stop an arrow from my bow. I've shot through the spine of two deer and can't count the number of "double" shoulder penetrations I've had. 75 to 80# bows and 800+ grain arrows with either Magnus I's or Ace two blade heads.

LBR

I have to ask--why are you shooting deer in the shoulders to begin with? My bow will break bones, but I am trying to hit vitals for a quick and clean kill. Youcan get lucky with some shots--no doubt about that--but a broadside shot through the shoulder isgoing to be borderline in the vitals at best. I've seen deer that had their legs shot out from under them with high power rifles that went on forever, some not recovered--why try that with a bow? If you can hit the spine, whyaren't you hitting center of the vitals? It's a much bigger target.

I'd much rather get a double lung with a 45# bow than a gut shot or a shoulder shotwith 100#, but that's just me.

Dan, I don't question what you said, but generally speaking if you hita deer broadside in the shoulder you have goofed. I think it was PSE that had a video (been too long since I saw it--belonged to someone else, and I can't even remember who) where they dissected a goat--supposedly identical skeletal anatomy to a deer. The fellow doing the dissection (as best I can remember, he was some sort of professor, and maybe a bowhunter as well?) showed that at no time does the shoulder cover the lung area on a broadside shot--it barely covered the edge, and that was only when the leg was in the worst position.

Maybe I'm nuts, but to me a big part of hunting--especially bowhunting--is waiting for the right shot. Not that mistakes don't happen, but I won't purposely take a shot that is risky.

Chad

Lilhunter

Chad likeI said this wasn't my intended shot.

I do believe you are only partially right in the fact that on the ground if you hit the shoulder you are generally going to be to high however with ANY at all elevation this just isnt the case.

I've passed on animals people still question as to why. Needless to say I dont kill much, that's just not what gets me going as much as getting close and having that opportunity. That said hunting the game I am (obviously on average much larger then your average whitetail), I am holding off for those 'perfect' situations. That shoulder was a fluke however it did happen and there were two holes in the lungs of that doe, something you can argue (not saying you are just lack of a better word), till the cows come home but the evidence was there, two holes and one dead doe. With both legs even (neither leg forward or backwards) and getting a broadside shot on flat ground I still believe you can connect with the shoulder and still get lungs. I dont buy the fact goats and deer have the same anatomy though it maybe similiar. It's almost like saying a moose shoulder and a whitetail shoulder are even remotely the same.

My first ram, case in point was a spine shot ram. The arrow penetrated 4 to 5"es from the feathers before it was stopped. We don't go into this with the mindset that if "nothing happens", atleast Ipersonally don't. I plan for the worst but expect the best, basically setting myself up for the best situation I can. When the best doesn't happen I know my outfit will do it's job on MOST bad shots. (shoulders on a moose would be the exception to this in which neither bulls I have killed have been hit however many people make this mistake).

LBR

Sorry Dan--that wasn't directed at you. It was a response to " I've shot through the spine of two deer and can't count the number of "double" shoulder penetrations I've had."

Chad