Len in Maryland

Arthur:

You started off with a comment on one of you posts on another thread with:

Quote:

Factor in the reflexed risers manufacturers have gone to in order to increase arrow speeds, and how easy they are to torque, I see no forgiveness advantage, whatsoever. There's a reason I prefer deflex risers, even though they can't shoot an arrow as fast. They're extremely hard to torque and ultra forgiving. Darn shame there are so few made any more.

I then responded with;

Quote:

Arthur:
There you go, hitting a 'nerve' with me. You don't know how much I preach about staying away from the higher reflex designs. Some of the 'best' bows on the market are ones I personally would NEVER shoot because of 2-3" reflex. I've personally turned away many a new/nice bow because of it.

It's amazing that most don't know what you're talking about when you mention 'reflex'. It's also amazing that some who do know what it is tend to ignore it.

I do a lot of 'snap shooting' with my compound. It's much the same as trads do with their equipment. I do it because things move and shift so fast in the woods.

A tournament archer's target is one that will usually never move. If they make them move to add some spice, it moves slowly, in an open area, and it is predictable. Not so in the environment where I like to shoot.

This is off the subject, but something that I've argued with my peers about quite a lot in the past. And probably will some more once they see this post.

You then came back with;

Quote:

Yep, Len, the most accurate, forgiving and easiest to shoot compounds I've ever used were Hoyt's old ProVantage and SuperSlam series. I'm sure you remember how deflexed they were. With reflexed bows, I have a devil of a time controlling them when they get past about 1 1/2". Add in 75% and more on the letoff, and I won't touch 'em with a 10 foot pole.

Rather than have that longer thread continue on, I figured I'd start another thread specifically addressing this subject. I hope some discussion results on this subject for the benefit of the industry/archers/hunters.

It's a shame that only one manufacturer, to my knowledge, openly advertises a 'deflex/reflex' number -- HOYT. I also find it interesting that many of my customers have never heard of the term 'reflex', let alone knowing how it's measured. SAD!!!

What is a reflex riser and a deflex riser?
Reflex and deflex are terms used to explain the geometry of a riser. A deflex riser bow will have a higher brace height than a reflex riser bow which generally means it is a more forgiving bow. A reflex riser bow has a shorter brace height which usually translates into a higher performance bow and perhaps a bit less forgiving than a deflex riser bow. Reflex/deflex is measured by the position of the throat of the grip in terms of its location from a line drawn from each of the pocket pivot points on the handle. If the throat of the grip is in front of the pivot point line it is considered deflex, if it is behind the pivot point line it is considered reflex.

BUT, don't be fooled by just looking for higher brace height to achieve a good deflex/reflex compromise. There are MANY manufacturers who make higher brace height bows with extreme reflex geometry.[]

TFOX

Len,I just posted on the other thread and I am in 100% agreement.I even pointed out the high brace bows that still have 3" reflex.


It would be nice to see more companies doing what Hoyt does but most are ignorant to the affects of reflex and some of the manufactuers don't seem to want to let the public know,maybe so they can keep preaching IBO numbers and high brace and make all seem like they are having their cake and eating it too.

ewolf

This is one of the negatives to par. limbs. They would have to have a 9"+ brace height to just get to a straight riser.

Speed sells, accuracy wins. Do any manufactures other than hoyt even make a deflex riser? As far as I know, I don't think bowtech or Mathews does. I think that nugebow might be.

TFOX

I believe Martin does.Even Mathews had a straight riser(I think) that was probably their best shooting bow (rival Pro ) but they no longer make it. I had a budy that used to kick my but with his,heck,he could usually grab my Hoyt and kick my but with it too.Funny,he always said he liked my bows better than his own but his shop sponsor didn't sell Hoyt.

Arthur P

I showed a friend of mine the difference in torque between his reflexed riser, 80% letoff bow and my deflex riser ProTec with 65% letoff. I showed him how far you could intentionally twist the riser out of plane with the string on his bow, at least 60 degrees from left to right, and how you really had to struggle to budge my bow. He was showing that trick to someone else in a shop one day and twisted the riser so far that he popped the string out of the tracks on the cams.

But that's just how easy it is to torque one of those heavily reflexed risers. High letoff just makes it easier.

ewolf, as far as I know, only Hoyt, Reflex and Merlin have a deflexed riser in their lineup. Martin went to a serious reflex in their Cougar and Sceptor bows, so I don't think they've got anything in deflex any more.

For those who need a visual:

Deflex riser. Pivot point of the grip is IN FRONT of the pivot point of the limb butts.


Reflex riser. Pivot point of the grip is BEHIND the pivot point of the limb butts.


You can see, with the reflex riser, you're pulling back on the string and cams while trying to push the handle and limb butts away from the string and keep everything aligned in the same plane. With the deflex riser, you're pulling the string, cams and limb butts straight back from the grip, so everything is automatically kept in alignment.

Olink

I used to be conviced that a deflexed riser made for a more forgiving bow. Then I read a write-up on the tech section of Merlin's website that stated higher brace height is what makes a bow forgiving, not the deflex/reflex geometry. Well, I still didn't quite buy it, so I emailed Norb Mullaney and asked him what he thought. I even gave him the link to the article on Merlin's web site. Norb read the article and emailed me back. His reply left me dumbfounded - he agreed with what was written on the Merlin site. I still don't know what to think, but I hold Norb's opinion in high regard. If someone can explain to me why Merlin's write-up is incorrect, I'd love to hear it. It's titled "Reflex or Deflex?" on the attached link.

[link]http://www.merlin-bows.co.uk/TECFRAMESET.htm[/link]

Arthur P

Well, I usually hold Norb's opinions in high regard too, but I've got to say that writeup is a lot of bull. I've already said why. Reflex risers are MUCH easier to torque and you can do the same little experiment I wrote above to prove it to yourself. Just be careful not to twist the riser on the reflexed one so far you pop the string out of the cams.

Cougar Mag

While I agree somewhat with what is said about deflex and reflex riser designs, and that a deflex riser generally promotes less torque, the higher brace heights on many of the newer bows has improved the shootability. Even with a deflex riser the bow arm is still pushing the riser away from the shooter. That part sort of confuses me Arthur of what you said.

As for accuracy, we all know that most modern or new rests are somewhat of an overdraw rest. I never did get into overdraws because it didn't take me long to figure out it hurt accuracy.......at least mine. Personally, I would rather shoot a reflexed riser bow with the rest centered near the berger button hole than a deflexed riser with an overdraw, which some archers did to help achieve more speed due to shorter, lighter, stiffer arrows. Sorry I got off the subject.

Mattiac

A deflexed bow is going to be harder to torque. No doubt about it.

A high brace height merely shortens the power stroke, giving the arrow less time on the string, thereby allowing the archer less time to effect the arrows flight.


If you dont have a reflex and deflex bow to try the above mentioned test on. Take a paper clip and bend it into a "V".

Pretend that the smallest part of the V is the grip. With the v facing away from you wiggle it back and forth to an extent. Where is the furthest range of movement?
The largest range of motion is at the ends. Now imagine that your bows limbs were connected to those ends. You can see the range decreases the closer you get to the "handle". Therefore, any applied torque will have a greater effect if the handle is placed "behind" the limbs. This effect amplifies as you place the handle further and further behind the limbs pivot points.


It wont work with the paper clip but use your imagination for the following. Turn the paper clip around so that the V is facing you. If there was a string attached to that it would cause the drawn "bow" to look like this; <>

Think about how difficult it would be to torque either part of the <> shape independently. They almost have to move with each other. One end correcting the other, keeping them in a straight line.

I dont know if thats the best way to explain it over a computer, but it makes sense if you know what Im getting at.

Brace height has little to do with ability to torque, infact I believe it has nothing to do with it. But thats not to say that brace height isnt important too. It is..it allows the user less time to effect the arrow at time of "explosion". That makes a larger brace height bow more "forgiving" than a low brace height bow.

But I think its effects are less than that which a deflexed riser provides. I bet if you made a deflexed riser bow, with a low brace height of 7", you would have a bow that is more forgiving than a bow with a reflexed riser and a brace height of 9".

Anyone see what Im saying?

All that being said, the shooter of the bow has to decide how much "forgivness" he/she needs. I find that I can shoot a bow with a 7-1/2" brace height and a slight reflex (1") just as well as a bow with more forgiving specs.

I also have to agree on the fact that too many bows are made with too much reflex and too low of brace heights. This is an emphasis on speed. Low brace is easier to obtain with a reflexed bow, giving the archer a longer powerstroke.

Seems silly though....Where do you draw the line of speed and forgiveness?

I know where I draw my line....but its up to the other archers to figure out what they want or need more of....SPEED or FORGIVENESS!

With the current bow trends, its pretty obvious that most want speed.

Have a good one---Matt

Arthur P

Higher brace heights do make a bow more shootable, Coug, by letting the arrow clear the string earlier, which decreases the amount of time torque can direct the arrow somewhere other than where you aim it. BUT reflexed risers are still much more susceptable to torque than deflex risers. A bow with an 8" brace and deflex riser will shoot every bit as fast as a bow with an 8" brace and reflex riser, but will be more accurate, stable and consistent. With the grip between the limb pivots and the cams, your hand has a good bit of mechanical advantage. The slightest movement, or even pressure in the wrong place, can twist the riser out of alignment with the string and cause the shot to go wide. The more reflexed the riser, the more mechanical advantage you have and the more the problem is amplified. Even worse when the bow is also extremely high letoff because there is hardly any tension on the bow to help keep the string aligned with the bow itself.

With your hand in front of both the limb pivots and cams, you have hardly any mechanical advantage. Even intentionally trying to flex your wrist to twist a deflex riser bow left and right, it can't hardly be done. Especially if the bow is lower letoff. A slight movement or inconsistent grip pressure will affect a deflex riser bow much less than it would the reflex riser. The difference might mean your arrow striking the target fractions of an inch wide vs inches wide, or a line cutter X vs a 10.

Just get a deflex riser bow and a reflex riser bow and do the experiment I outlined. Draw the bow, flex your wrist left and right, and see how much you can move one vs the other. It'll be oh so obvious to you.

Can a reflex riser be shot well? Obviously, yes. Assuming the reflex isn't excessive. Assuming shooting form is rock solid and you don't make any mistakes. The more your bow is reflexed, the more flawless your form must be. For me, I know my limit is 1 1/2" and I don't even shoot that as well as I do a straight or deflex riser bow. My field archery scores prove it.

I know, not many people around these days have ever shot field archery and don't know diddly about it. It's a 28 target course, 4 arrows per target, 560 total points, distances from just a few feet out to 80 yards. It's not only a game to test your accuracy, but also your consistency. Not to mention that shooting 112 arrows for score will test your stamina and concentration. I average 518 shooting in bowhunter freestyle class (didn't say I was good at it!) with a straight or deflexed bow. I've never been able to score over 475 with a reflexed bow - even with high brace height bows. 475 isn't a whole bunch better than my average shooting my deflexed bows in competitive bowhunter class, which is fingers, no sights, 12" max stabilizer. 460 makes me pretty salty in that class.

Reflex risers make you pay for small mistakes and the more reflex the more you pay. If they have reflex risers and low brace heights, they make you pay dearly. For a given riser configuration, higher brace heights are more forgiving. But I've found riser configuration to be much more important to my shooting than brace height. I can shoot a bow with 1" of deflex and 8" brace much better than I can a bow with 1" of reflex and an 8" brace. That's exactly why I sold my Pearson when I got my ProTec. They both brace at 8" but the ProTec is deflexed and the Pearson was reflexed.

Good concept with the paperclip thing, Mattiac. You posted whilst I was typing!