A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

As some of you know, I picked up my new Allegiance last week and right now I'm trying to work out what kind of setup I want to shoot out of it. I've shot aluminum arrows my entire life and never really had a problem to speak of, but I'm looking to try something new out for this season. Seeing as though I've never experimented much with carbons or carbon/aluminum composites I was wondering if a few of you more knowledgable folks would clue me in as to the advantages/disadvantages of both shafts. My main concern isn't having a light, fast arrow, but rather something with a little bit of weight to it that's going to give me the best penetration possible.

FYI - I'm shooting about 65 lbs @ 28" with a 100 grain broadhead.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

We shoot similar setups , buy yourself some 349s and go from there , or keep shooting aluminums , 2314s would be my guess . I tried quiet a few pure carbons , most shot like junk from the get go , some initially shot good , but quickly lost their grouping ability . My opinion .

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

They will all do OK so long as you don't buy the very cheapest carbons. I've shot many different kinds over the last 10 years and if you want the best quality within normal budgets then my nod goes to ACC's. They seem to have the best spine consistency. Can they break or bend or get creased? You bet. Can they pssibly snap and go through your hand? Not very likely.

But then all carbon arrows probably won't do much worse either if you pay some attention to them. And they can and do break or split if you go around shooting trees and rocks, or shoot tight groups hitting the nock ends. Any arrow can be destroyed.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

I obvioulsy understand the physical limitations of any arrow, regardless of material, if you shoot it into a concrete wall, rock, etc. What I'm more or less looking for are the pros and cons as they directly correlate into an acc versus carbon comparison. Simply - why would anyone shoot an ACC versus a carbon arrow? Strength? Durability? Straightness? Etc..

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

As I'm sure you know the ACC's are wrapped carbon over an aluminum core. Any damage to this arrow is obvious. Carbon arrows are hollow core and can be fractured on the interior by impact or a flaw in manufacturer. Most times this flaw will be noticed on impact with the target, but on occasion, the arrow will fail when released. I instruct JOAD at my local club. Outdoor ranges from 30 to 80 meters. A carbon is a necessity with archers with draw weights in the 30# range from a recurve bow. The ONLY carbon arrows I will permit are the ACC, ACE and X-10's. Safety first = peace of mind.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Justin, I've shot carbons for about 4 years now. I liked the GoldTip XTs I was shooting for a while very much. They are a good arrow that is very tough and reasonably priced. Then I started thinking about it and I came to the realization that I have bought 3 dozen arrows and of that 3 dozen I have thrown out 10 due to straightness issues and eliminated 4 more due to grouping issues most likely related to spine. The savings in cost disappeared pretty quickly and the XT is a good arrow. This year I bought a dozen ACCs and couldn't be happier. I know every arrow is straight and spined correctly and thanks to the numbering codes I can be sure that when I need more I get some that should shoot exactly the same as my current arrows. They cost more, but you get what you pay for.

BTW, I just got an Allegiance as well. Mine is 28" 65 lbs. and I got the 349 ACCs. So far I'm very pleased.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

ACC's would be my choice, but I prefer something with more weight. Even though the spine is correct, I am still old school when it comes to total arrow weight. I cannot justify spending $120 or more for a dozen arrows that are just too light for my hunting setup. That is why I don't/won't shoot ACC's for hunting. Personally, I suppose I could justify spending money on the aluminums again, replacing those as they break or bend.:eek:

There are nothing wrong with carbon arrows, as long as you buy the better grades. Carbons have gained such a popular following because of durability. I find it funny when some archers complain about the carbons that lose their straightness when in fact one hit, ding or incorrectly pulled arrow from a target makes an aluminum arrow nothing but stump shooters. I am going to try the New Beman Max 4 myself this year.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Justin,
I have probably killed more deer with A/C/C's than all other makes and models of carbon arrow combined.........I mess around with lots of different carbon target shafts for 3D, but it'll always be A/C/C's for hunting.
You know exactly what you are getting with these and IMO they're worth every penny. (The best carbons, which you'd need to even come close to A/C/C's are just about as expensive.)
I personally shoot 3-60's with 2.25" Quik Spins and 100gr heads for a finished weight of 403grs.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Another fan of the ACC's here. I don't think twice about paying the extra money for ACC's. I know they will all group together after buying dozens of them over the years and never had a single problem. Some people complain that they can bend but I have found them to be very durable.

Justin, the biggest advantage is the spine consistency offered by the aluminum core. I don't believe pure carbon arrows can compare with the spine.... And as far as weight compared to aluminums for hunting I don't think the penetration is sacraficed due to the smaller diameter. And besides, ACC's are slightly heavier, on average, compared to most pure carbon arrows.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Cougar, you may want to check Easton's super lite aluminum arrows. A bit less speed with a reasonable price.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Justin, with the configuration shown above a good arrow would be the Easton A/C/C Carbon Metal 3-60.
Like Matt/PA said this arrow with the Blazer vanes or new 2.25" NAP QS vanes @ 28" will weigh about 405 grains (this is with a 100 grain broadhead). With a draw weight of 65# and an arrow weighing 405 grains, you'll get about 265 ft/sec at the bow, a KE of about 63 ft/lb and this arrow will maintain quite good KE and speed all the way thru to 70 yards, having about 50 ft.lb and 235 ft/sec at that distance.
At 70 yards, this arrowing hitting the vitals of most North American big game animals will get the job done.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

I forgot to mention that with a Draw weight of 65# the A/C/C 3-60 @ 28" will be a tad over-spined (which is good--better over, than under-spined)--but bouncing up your DW to 68 # will get you dead on the mark.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Can you elaborate on the numbering codes? Don't all arows have some type of numbering code to identify spine? Just curious.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Yes, but the ACCs have a second number after the spine code to identify a "batch" number. All of the arrows are tested for consistency at Easton and hand matched into these batches. So if you order ACCs in the same spine with the same batch number 10 years from now you can be sure they will shoot the same as the ones you buy today. This was actually the selling point for me getting them.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Couagr Mag, there are some ulternatives for you guys that like a heavier arrow for hunting. There are the Beman Metal Matrix and the ACA made by Blackhawk. I can't attest to their quality but just stating the weight.

Justin, soryy if I offended you in any way. I was just trying to be a little precise. I do not know your experience level. Apparently you've been around a while. Sorry.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

I know the Black Hawk Pro Series 4000 Carbon C4000 works really good on my Allegiance, but I'm set @ 55# (and not 65# as is Justin's Bow) with a 27.25" DL.
Also the A/C/C 3-39's is another good arrow.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

No offense taken, I appreciate your reply. I just wanted to make sure I was making myself clear as to what I was really looking for.

At this point I think I'm going to be picking up a set of Easton a/c/c's and put some NAP QuikSpins on them and see how things go.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Justin, let us know what size ACC's you decide on please.

You guys are making me nearly buy some ACC's. I am thinking 3/49 or 3/60 myself. I am at 65 lbs. and going after elk this season. I would really like to try the new A/C Slims, because of the heavier weights but cannot find any yet.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

I just bought 12 of the A/C/C Superlites yesterday. I would not buy the A/C Slims. I have heard that they use the HIT system just like the Axis arrows. I have not had any experiance with the HIT system, but I have heard several bad comments.

ACLakey sent me 4 of the A/C/C Superlites. Each one of them killed an animal- a black bear, 2 whitetail deer, and an elk. One of the arrows was cracked. He said he practiced with them a lot, so that's probably how it was cracked. I fletched them up and shot them for months. I took them deer hunting. I just recently sent them back to him so he could give them to a kid that is going elk hunting.

Although they are more expensive than other carbon arrows, they keep their spine and last longer.

Just my 140,000 cents. Wait, that is enough to buy a dozen A/C/C arrows, hint, hint.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Sniper151. This question is a little off topic, but you mentioned the Easton SuperLites. I use these (2314s), but have never been able to find seperate info in their website about Super Lites or Ultra Lites (like weight). Do you know where that info is? Thx!

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

I recently made a spine meter to get a little more info on arrows this year. With all the posts lately about how some guys think it is a complete waste of money to buy anything but the cheap .006 carbons, I bought some lower grade carbons to check, and compare them to the ACCs I had. I got 6 Carbon Wolverines at Wal-Mart. (Nothing says quality like a white bar code painted on your arrows!) I also picked up some Carbon Tech Cheetahs in Cabelas Bargain Cave. The Wolverines aren't too bad for spine around the shaft, most individual arrows varied by .002 or less. Arrow to arrow variation was not so good though, with total variation in the 6 arrows of .025. The Cheetahs varied as much as .003 and as little as .0005 around the shaft, and shaft to shaft variation was .012. In addition, only one of my Wolverines spins as nice as my ACCs, although most of them were pretty good on one end and bad on the other. The Cheetahs are similar. One (of 12) had no wobble at all, 4 had only the slightest amount, but on both ends. The other 7 had significant wobble on one end, with the other end pretty straight. IME, if you have a wobble on the nock end, you usually will have an inconsistent arrow. That is exacly what you have a good chance to get from most shops, as they cut only the point end of the arrow shaft.[&:]

To offer a comparison, every single one of the 18 ACCs I have bought in the last 2 years have spun perfectly, at least to my eyes (which are also looking at the other arrows.) In terms of spine, they vary from .0005 to .001 around the shaft, and varied only .0015 from arrow to arrow for a dozen arrows. That is only a little more than 1/10 the variation in the Cheetahs, which were the better of the two cheap carbons. At this point, I think the best way for me to have saved money was to have not bothered to make the spine meter, or buy the cheap carbons, and just stick with the ACCs.;)

I guess the question that most will have is what is the acutal difference in shooting. I am not a human Hooter Shooter, so I'm not the best person to answer that. I haven't done enough shooting with the all carbons to say for sure, but from the shooting I've done so far, the Wolverines don't seem to shoot too badly with field points out to 30, maybe 40. With broadheads, I think they are less reliable past 20 than the ACCs. If I really wanted to use them, I would just number the arrows and shoot the ones that shot best. If I can find the time, I will experiment to see how much improvement can be had by cutting off the worst parts of the shafts, and aligning the cock fletch with the lowest measured deflection.

RE: A/C/C's or Carbons?
 

Good post JoePa. It just reinforces what I've thought for a long time. ACC's sure seem to consistently show that they are the class of carbons---within the price of practicality, that is. And the price may be high, but compared to what? Price the top arrows from each manufacturer and you'll not see a great difference. I personally have only ever had one ACC that would not group with others. I tried everything with this thing and the only thing that worked was when I put it through the arrow cutoff saw.