Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

I have shot alum. and carbon arrows for about 25 years. The first carbons that came out were a little scary as they would split from nock to point and quality wasn't to good. When ACC's came out, things changed. They were (are) straight and durable except like alums., they will bend. The new all carbon arrows are good but I have to disagree with many of the people that post here. The first thing said when comparing alums. to carbons seems to be "and carbons are more durable". I have shot several brands, Carbon Express-Beaman(Easton)-Easton etc. and I've not found any that won't break with a side hit from another arrow or a direct impact to hard objects. The only thing, IMO that carbon gives you over alums. is, they are straight or broken and their weight will give a little more speed. I am not trying to start a @#$$%^ match or offend anyone but if you will take a hard look and open your mind, I think you would give the poor old alum. arrow the respect it deserves[&:]. I am not trying to persuade anyone to change from carbon arrows to alums. If they work for you and you are happy, then let'm'fly:D. Alum. arrows are not without their short comings either. They will bend but not quite as easy as some think. They are heavy spine to spine with carbons and will not give the rocket speed everyone seems to need. They will get a crease in them when hit from a side impact from another arrow and if you shoot them funny hard things, they will break:).When I started shooting 25 years ago, people were getting along great without carbon arrows and I don't feel they were giving up much to the arrows of today. Don

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

I started out shooting aluminum arrows for a number of years and I prefer carbons because I have found that they are in fact more durable than aluminum.

I find that..............

When pulling them out of a target they will not bend if you happen to pull a little bit not straight out.

Little side hits in the trget will not crease them like aluminum.

Given the same weight carbon will out penetrate an aluminum because they are skinnier, do not flex as much when striking a target, and recover from any flexing faster resulting in more of the arrows energy being transfered into penetration rather than side to side movement.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Taking the exact same hit......the carbons I have shot will take much more than an aluminum arrow but that is not to say they are better. I would have no problem shooting aluminums again, but I do prefer the heavier carbon shafts......and I plan on trying out a dozen of the new Easton A/C Slims this year.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

If you're talking about those overglorified, light, thin walled beer can arrows, like 2213's, 2512's, etc., then yeah, I agree. When you compare the durability of carbons to the heavier aluminums, like 2216, 2315, and such, there's not much durability advantage to carbon. Okay, so the heavy aluminums are slower. Big deal! When you're talking hunting whitetail deer, where the national average shot distance is under 23 yards, trajectory is a non-issue.

For mulies, pronghorn, open range elk, caribou, mountain goat and such, flatter trajectories might be a plus. But then, there are bunches of those same critters taken by traditional bowhunters at 20 yards and less too. "Good" bowhunters are able to get plenty close to those animals as well, and not have to plink away at 50 yards. But, if someone ain't that good a hunter and has to have the flat trajectory, then go for it. I hope that someone is a good shot.

By the way, you don't bend aluminum arrows if you pull them STRAIGHT out of the target, like you're supposed to. Using that argument to bust on aluminum is like you - or your survivors - filing suit against a hair dryer manufacturer because you were dumb enough to use it in the shower. With the water running![8D]

And aluminums pull out of targets SO much easier than carbons do, even without having to smear creams, soaps, ointments, linaments and unguents on 'em, like you have to do with carbons. That's one major plus in aluminum's column... at least that's the concurring opinion of my back, hernias and hemmorhoids. ;)

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

I agree with you and will go one step farther, the thing about carbons being straight or broken is a bunch of crap as well. They warp and break down in spine over time as well. Heck sometimes they are bad right out of the box if you check all of them when you buy a dozen, rarely do you see this with aluminums, even the cheap ones.

I will be honest and say that I have shot a lot of carbons and never really had any problems with them. For what I do they all shot pretty well. My favorites are Nitro Stingers by Arrow Dynamics. I just feel aluminums offer more for the money in most cases, and I'm a cheap SOB;). Carbons are a bit tougher then most aluminums and can take a bit more abuse and don't bend if you do something stupid like step on one or something. However I don't seem to have any trouble damaging them. Most of the things I do to ruin an alumimum would ruin a carbon as well. And with aluminums at least you can tell when they are bad. Carbons are a bit trickier, they may be bad and you can't tell by visually looking at them sometimes. And once a carbon is messed up you should really pitch it for safety reasons. With an aluminum if it has a crease or is slightly bent you can still shoot it if you want to. It won't shoot that well, but at least it won't snap in half and stick through your wrist on release. Ok, shooting creased aluminums is probably not very wise either, but I never claimed to be[8D]. Also I feel aluminums have an advantage of more spine selection as well. The carbons are fairly genaric in that department. Aluminums have a ton of selections to pick the weight and spine you need to fit your bow better right out of the gate.

I shoot the thin ones like 2213's and still don't have that many problems with them. Of course I shoot pretty short arrows. If I shot full length arrows things might be a bit different I guess.

And as far as pulling them out of 3-D targets, don't think pulling carbons wrong won't mess them up either because it will. Most of the carbons you see that are warped in the front are from pulling them wrong. Or sticking them in a piece of wood or something. When you wrench around on them from side to side trying to get them out it breaks the fibers on the inside of the arrow where you can see it. And eventually gets this little S warp to it from the strands starting to let go. I bet the heat from sinking into the foam doesn't do them any good either. I don't shoot a lot of 3-D though, just the one I have in my back yard or at a friends house pretty much. Other than that I shoot into bag targets exclusively.

Just my thoughts on the subject any way.

Paul

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Seeing as I had a carbon slap into a log today (Infront of a 3-d target at the range) and snap the back 4 inches off I sure know they are not indestrutable. Of course, I have also clipped a big branch and had wood flying everywhere with no damage to those arrows...Oh well, wasn't fun to see the arrow snap like that today.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Of course neither are indestructable but pound for pound the carbon arrow is a lot more tough and stronger than an aluminum. That is a fact and people can dispute it all they want but they will be wrong.

If aluminum were in fact stronger and more durable than carbon don't you think that INDY and formula one race teams would use aluminum over carbon fiber in the constructionof their cars. How about carbon fiber barrels?

Glad you corrected that.;)

Yeah, no kidding. But we all know that people don't always do what they are SUPPOSE to do. Now don't we. A carbon arrow will take some, actually a whole lot more, bending much better than an aluminum will.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

I used to do bad things to alums when I was a kid and have seen them bend and break at the range too. It wasn't the arrows fault it got snapped, it was mine for shooting it where I did. If it had been an alum damage would have happened to it too and on those other shots into the wood would have bent the alums probably. (Only reason I say that is another guy shooting with me bent one of his with a similiar shot) I don't think I am going to stop shooting my carbons anytime soon because I just flat out prefer them.


I should say it wasn't fun but it was kind of funny watching the tail section go flying away from the main part of the arrow. At least the other guys at the range thought it was hilarious

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

I might be wrong but I think race cars are made of fiberglass. There is a big difference in carbon and fiberglass. Carbon fiber is used in barrels for weight and heat disapation. I don't think spine or deflection is a factor. There are some alum. over steel barrels but they are for weight and heat disapation and not for strenth. Most of the carbon arrows I've hit with another arrow has broken and I also get dent in alum. when hit from the side but you can't snap them like a pencil after being hit. Shoot what your comfortable with but carbon is not the cure all over alum. I just started this post to see if people have the same issues with carbon I've had. After seeing what an exploded carbon could do to your hand I will not shoot them again(except ACC's). Shoot what your comfortable with but if you think a carbon won't split and explode on the next shot if not checked, good luck, I hope you don't get hurt. Don

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

DoninVa,

Curious... and I try not to shoot any arrows into immovable hard objects, like boulders and such. When do you put your arrows into a target in a way that they could be struck from the side?


My arrow bills have gotten much smaller since I swithed to ICS's.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

I have shot my carbons into walmunized (sp?) ties surrounding a target at the range. I have gotten .75" penetration and pulled the sucker out to see that it was not damaged in any way. I guess I'm lucky and have had very good luck with them.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Neither aluminum or carbon are perfect. Each has it's own disadvantages. Another thing - not all carbons are built the same and have great differences in durability.

I shot alumimuns for about 15 years and carbon for the past 8 years. One thing I can say without doubt. I ruin far fewer carbons while shooting targets. I'm not saying there aren't other trade-offs, because there are, but I know my arrow cost/shot is lower with the carbons I shoot.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

If carbons were a little easier to pull out of a target, you wouldn't have to bend them back and forth to get them out of the target!! If I had to say a main reason why I still use aluminum, this would be it. After shooting a 28 station 3d course, I am way to tired after pulling arrows. Aluminums slide right out!

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Come on, is that really the reason that Formula One racers use carbon?

Carbon filber barrels? What does that have to do with this comparison?

Please explain what you mean.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Then they ought to have to pay for their mistakes so they'll no better than screw up the next time. ;)

No doubt. On the other hand, many - if not most - top shooters won't allow anyone else to pull their arrows, no matter what they're made out of.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

A lot of race cars do use carbon fiber, Most of it is due to weight not strength though. Yes carbon fiber components can be very strong if done right, they are also very light for thier strength and this is why race cars use them. The are also very brittle as well. And very expensive to make. The carbon used in a race car is not the same process or make up that is in your arrows. Or they would cost over 50 bucks an arrow to buy, possibly well over that.

I am not disputing the fact that carbons are tougher, they are. However they do go bad and the tolerances and quality control is not as good for the money. Many believe that you can go to walmart and get a 45 dollar/dozen set of carbon arrows and they will perfect out of the box and remain that way forever. That is just not the case. Yes you can get good even great carbon arrows, but they are not cheap and need to be hand sorted. If you take a 50 or 60 dollar set of carbons and compare them to the same priced aluminums the aluminums will most likely have better tolerances right out of the box. That is the only reason I use them isntead of carbons. They are more accurate from arrow to arrow for the money. If money were no concern I would shoot ACC's.

I've never actually broke an aluminum arrow either, I have broke a ton of carbons dinking around. And as far as talking about creasing aluminums, if a carbon took the same kind of hit it could be bad as well, you just can't see it is all. The damage may be inside the arrow rather then on the outer surface.

Paul

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

I read an article about gun barrels once and it stated that carbon was 3 times stronger and 5 times lighter than steel. (or visa versa) anyway something to think about;)

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Then aluminum?

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Oops sorry steel, I fixed that

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Bullkllr, I try not to shoot hard objects but sometimes things happen[:o], as I'm not a pro or great shooter. I have only won maybe 15 spot tournements and got a third in the state once. I do shoot good enough sometimes to have arrows impact in my target. I've found when I hear that smack, I've just lost a 8.00 carbon arrow. Before I stopped shooting carbons, I started shooting multiple spots due to the cost of replacement of arrows. I have never said carbons are not durable or a great choice but I feel some people seem to think alum. arrows will bend when you look at them, are so heavy they won't shoot past 40 yards out of a 300 fps bow and won't shoot thru much of anything. I have just tried to point out some short comings of carbon arrows. Alum. have their short comings as well. The safety factor of alum. is what made me go back. I have a 13 year old shooting a 64 lb. Mighty Mite and won't take a chance of an arrow going thru his arm or hand. When I showed him the picture of the guy with the arrow exploded and thru his hand, he said the same thing a lot of guys have " It only happened one time". He was not happy when I told him he couldn't shoot carbon anymore. He's 13 and I have to try to keep him safe. When he get's 18 and wants to shoot carbon again, I will remind him of the danger and he can make the choice. He will have to live with his choice, but until he is old enough to make a mature choice, I'll try to keep him safe. I may buy some ACC's, which I feel other than they will bend(had one do that) take care of the safety factor. The 125.00 a dozen will hurt but are worth the price if I don't have to worry about a missed crack that turns in a tragedy[&o]. Don

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

I'd say hit the weight room and you wouldn't have to move them back and forth.:D
or just use some lube.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Just thought I'd mention that I've witnessed (or personally shot) many tens of thousands of carbon arrows and I've never seen one explode. I understand that there is a risk, but I'm guessing that it must be very, very small. I've shot many cracked carbons without knowing it until after the shot. They didn't explode. In fact, they didn't even break. I may have shot them dozens of times until I happened to notice the crack. How do I know they were cracked before the shot? Well, I've found dried mud in the crack (after not having hit dirt for days). I've also found soap in the cracks (soap used to make them pull easier). In addition, my eyes don't see well up close and seeing small cracks is not easy for me. To catch a crack when it first happens is not so likely for me.

We voluntarily take much greater risks every day. We also willing put our children under greater risks all the time. Do you drive or ride in cars, climb ladders, hunt out of tree stands, go swimming, drink alcohol or cross a busy street? I personallly know at least one person who has been seriously injured or killed in each one of these activities that we think nothing of. The risks are real and much greater than a carbon arrow "exploding" into our arm. I tend to shoot stiff carbon arrows and I now try to check them frequently. I'm not frightened of shooting them, and I do allow my daughter to shoot them also. I wouldn't let her shoot at 5 grains per lb, but at 7 to 8 grains per lb, I don't see any great risk being taken. I also have to believe the force exerted by a 26" draw, 35 lb bow, isn't that great and a good carbon is probably never going to explode in that situation. Now, when she gets into a car with friends, that scares the hell out of me.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Actually, no. I don't hunt out of treestands. Besides being smart enough not to take foolish risks just to shoot a deer, I don't consider sitting in a treestand hunting. But that's a topic for stirring the pot on a different thread and on the bowhunting forum.

I've also shot cracked carbons because I didn't notice they were cracked. I've also shot some that had internal damage that weren't visible. When you pull your arrow out of the target and all it's innards come spiralling out with the point and insert still in the target.... Each time it happened, it scared the bejeebers out of me when I found out I'd dumped the string on a damaged arrow. None of them exploded in the bow, but each one had the potential to.

When it comes to taking chances with arrows I know have the potential to break, I'd rather shoot wood. It's a lot easier to spot damage with a wood arrow than it is with a carbon, especially a carbon that has a camo coating on it.

Frankly, my cedar arrows are more consistent and straighter than the carbons I've tried - with the exception of ACC's naturally. They're not up there anywhere close on the durability scale, but $18 a dozen for cedar shafts vs $100 a dozen for anything resembling decent carbon arrow arrow shafts? I can bust 5 cedars before I lose money on 'em. And carbon hasn't proven itself 5 times more durable when shot from MY bows. Besides that, they're about 5 times easier to lose!;)

Honestly, the most durable, straightest and most consistent non-aluminum arrow I've shot has been Carbon Express Terminator Selects and they're fiberglass/carbon composite.

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Arthur, I have no problem with shooting wood arrows or any other kind for that matter. I have shot 10's of thousands of shots with every kind of arrow, and they are all relatively safe in my opinion. I was just trying to put things into perspective. How many millions of carbon arrows are shot each day, and what percentage explode, causing injury? I doubt it's even as high as one per day. If I do something that only has a one in, let's say 5 million, chance of happening, I don't get too worried. I'm more likely to choke to death on the popcorn I eat while reading some of the posts on this forum. [8D]

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Arthur if ya are that worried about a arrow, maybe you should stay at homeyou wont hunt in a tree stand because of the extra risk? but you will draw s string back next to your eye. Hmmm

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

No I don't! That's an ugly, false rumor you're tryin' to get started. My shootin' form might not be textbook perfect, but it's a lot better'n THAT, fer cryin' out loud! I draw the string next to the corner of my lip. ;)

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

If you drive, which I am assuming you do, then I bet you have taken greater risks for things that are less important. i.e. driving to the store for a loaf of bread;)

I can see where you are coming from on the "not hunting" issue though. Because, I feel the same way about stalking. I see no fundamental difference in hunting off the ground from a fixed position but if you can't figure out where he's gonna be and then be there waiting for me him when he gets there and then shoot him without him knowing what happened. Then you haven't done anything IMO

RE: Carbon arrows more durable-not!
 

Whatever, SA. You might someday see a newspaper story about me and my pickup getting squashed by an 18 wheeler, but you ain't never gonna hear about me getting splattered because of falling out of a treestand. Likewise, you ain't gonna see any photos on the 'net of MY arm crammed full of carbon splinters.[&:]