nodog

This past season I shoot an older (don't know) Hoyt 2 cam bow. I just received a new ProTec Hoyt. It can't be as hard to tune as the old one. There was not one thing on that bow that I could do to it without having to retune it. This one right from the shop shoots field points and broadheads in the same spot. I even tried two different wieghts of broadheads and no difference. The old one had a great deal of vibration and noise the new one almost none. That fact right there is enough to say that it will stay where it is put longer.

At what cost? the old one was around 50 bucks off of ebay. The new one was around 750. It was a gift from my brother and even he, being a hard core PSE guy is thinking of switching.

PABowhntr

Thanks again folks. Your responses are appreciated.

However, let me pick a specific example. I have always heard, and continue to hear, that dual cam bows will always be more accurate for someone that has the the bow properly tuned because it can be creep tuned while many of the newer designs cannot. I would think that the newer designs were designed to reduce overall maintenance, at least to some extent so could a hypothesis be made that........

Many bows which are designed to require less maintenance ( in the case of cam design not string materials/construction) can also reduce the ability of the archer to "fine tune" them.

?

Jerry/Pa

Frank this is way past archery 101. This is leaning more towards a graduate degree. You're really making me think about this. So here goes. I've aways favored two cam bows. I only ever had One single cam because I never really understood the engineering design behind it. I couldn't apply my two cam tuning knowlage to a design I didn't understand. For instance: Knock travel, off set cam to wheel and offset string design. Even though I could get it to shoot well enough I was never staisfied with the end results. So for a while I was limited to certain bow manufactors when the single cam craz hit. One of the attractions to the single cam when they first hit the market was exactly what yuor talking about. Less turning/maintenance. For a guy with my less then perfect form I thought I was compromising forgivness/shootablity for low maintenance so I stuck with what worked for me.

THEN! Darton made it even more complicated for me. So I had an opportunity to get a left-over Mav and jumped on it to see if I could teach myself and try to understand the disign flaws I thouhgt came along with these and the single cam bows. To tell you the truth I still don't grasp the engineering behind it fully. So I can't say I was right all this time. Apparently I wasn't. Right now I only shoot one (Merlin Rapid cam) two cam bow. I still shoot the Mav for hunting and last year bought a Merlin Omega for target/3-d and I'm shooting as good if not even better then I have ever shot any of my two cams. My scores show it and my tournement placement show it. Go figure.

My assumtion is that the engineering design has past my ability to fully understand it but the results are better. Which isn't so hadr to believe. lol So as far as I'm concernd tecchnology has only eliminated creep tuning from the equation. All other fine/super tuning is still required for the obsession. Where is Jeff when you need him? LOL Jerry

Jerry/Pa

OOPS! It should read "I really DON'T understand the engineering design behind it"Jerry

Rangeball

Frank, I see the flip side of what you stated as a potential positive pointing towards the advancements being for the better.

We all know we on this board and a few others are freaks. We actually want to know how something is doing what it is doing, versus the what I perceive as overwhelming majority of archers (bowhunters?) who simply pick up a bow and shoot away.

Perhaps a 2 cam CAN be made more accurate via creep tuning, which is good, as lack of a solid wall makes it more difficult to come to a consistent anchor shot after shot. Plus, to super tune or creep tune assumes one tunes in the first place. I still get the feeling the majority of archers don't do there own tuning, and at best get their bow tuned once at a shop then assume they're good to go for the life of the bow, no matter what string materials or arrow/tip changes they make.

When Single cams hit the scene, I feel the solid back wall helped quite a bit as it at least gave an easily repeatable draw length, and guesstimate this is why many users seemed to report shooting them more accurately.

Case in point. Until last year, my brother in law shot an older 2 cam bow without a wall. He also used a whisker biscuit. In front of a target after a few shots, he could shoot pretty consistently. In a tree on game, he was a basket case and missed shot after shot, unfortunately wounding several animals. I suggested that perhaps he was overdrawing under pressure, and he should look into getting a solid wall bow. He did, a used '03 BT extreme solo, and the very same fall he got it went 3 for 3.

So while I agree the solo's may be less tuneable, from an average shooter/users aspect, I think they offered other benefits that improved accuracy and consistency, and I see that as a postive step forward.

If you don't/can't creep, who needs creep tuning

JOE PA

Just the experience of an average shooter, with no real "tech" qualifications. BUT...

The last 3 duals I had needed to be creep tuned to aviod vertical double grouping. This is, no doubt, due to my difficulty in shooting with real back tension. I have tried it numerous times, and keep coming back to maintaining a pull into the stops, and squeezing slowly on the trigger.

That said, the only two singles I shot last year also showed double grouping when pulled hard into the wall or creeped forward (one was worse than the other). Nothing I could do about it, but to try to shoot back tension. Left shoulder just doesn't like it.[:@]

BTW, all of the CPS bows I have had showed the same thing. No difference between hard wall shots and creep shots. Didn't need to adjust anything. The Tundra I have also hasn't changed tune or POI one iota since I first tuned it.

Rangeball

Joe, almost sounds like it's pointing to your draw length being a tad too long?

If you shortened it a few twists, perhaps the result would be into the wall and hard into the wall, maybe giving more consistent results?

JOE PA

Rangeball:

I think my draw length is OK. I even found the same problem with a 29" draw, and I usually shoot 29.5. I actually shortened it some after my left shoulder separation. That is the biggest problem. Even after surgical "repair", my collarbone can stick up almost an inch farther than it is supposed to. I strengthen it with my Bowflex, but still don't have the solid bone on bone contact that I used to have for a real solid hold. I used to be able to hold real solid even at 40 or 50, but that was before the mountain bike crash![:@]

I have found the bow that I am very happy with now, and will spend this off season working on "Tuning the archer" as Len says.

PABowhntr

Thank you for the replies folks. They were great. If I could go back to something that Jerry said....


Do the rest of you feel this way as well? Do any of you feel that there is a new tuning style for these hybrid style cam bows (or even to a lesser extent singles) which approximates what creep tuning did for dual cams in terms of increased accuracy?

JOE PA

Hopefully someone like Len or Pinwheel with tons of hybrid experience will answer that last question from a more technical approach.

When I was broadhead tuning this summer, I was getting broadheads flying a bit high. I knew it was off a bit, since the different heads I was shooting reacted differently(Slick Tricks 1", Muzzy 2", Phantoms 3" higher than field points at 30 yards). I tried lowering the rest, but the effect was only lessened a bit. What solved the problem was putting one twist in the control cable to advance the control wheel or "top cam" on the bow. When I went back to shooting, all 3 broadheads shot to the same place (and the same as field points), as I found out by ruining a couple of arrows. Now I know some guys still say that it is wrong to have the same poi with broadheads as field points, but the bow is shooting better than I can, so I don't see the problem.
I even got a bow for one of the boys recently and it came with 1816 arrows, just long enough for me to use with the QAD rest. These drastically underspined arrows still group well and pretty much with my other arrows at 15-20 yards anyway. There is no serving wear at all AFAICT, unlike that other hybrid I brought over that seemed like the bottom cam was starving to death and needed to eat cable serving to survive.[8D] So as far as low maintenance, all is good, pretty much like that old Viper you saw with the steel cables, just with much less recoil.

I should be getting another hybrid today, if the guy shipped it when he said he did. I will have to see how it goes with that one.