Technical Find or ask for all the information on setting up, tuning, and shooting your bow. If it's the technical side of archery, you'll find it here.

Simplicity?

Old 01-17-2005, 05:22 PM
  #11  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Havertown PA USA
Posts: 232
Default RE: Simplicity?

LOFLMAO.That's great Arthur. I been there a number of times, I just couldn't throw it thinking of the money. Like I said earlier I try and keep my dirty hands off it once I get it there. Now I just pick-up another one and start all over again. Gotta love it. Jerry
Jerry/Pa is offline  
Old 01-17-2005, 09:13 PM
  #12  
Nontypical Buck
 
muzzyman88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,299
Default RE: Simplicity?

Frank,

On the subject of arrow rest, I do agree with you in the fact that drop aways don't really offer any accuracy advantages. All things being equal. But I do think they offer some benifits to fixed position styles in hunting situations. One, some, not all, have better containment features. The other, and this is solely personal opinion, is that I feel they are slightly more forgiving to not so perfect form that we so often times find ourselves in while hunting.


I think cam design has come a long way. They are finding ways to generate more energy. Bowtech is a perfect example. With the coming of the VFT design, they seem to almost take the limb movement out of the equation. The eccentrics are doing the same work as the traditional limb angles did with other cams. This amazes me. Previous designs utilize much more limb movement to aid in arrow speed. And with that, we get quieter, more vibration free bows then we have ever had. They are also beginning to experiment more with the draw curves these days. Making them more enjoyable to shoot.

I think its like anything else in life. New advancements create new draw backs. Heck look at modern medicine. Correcting one problem usually creates a whole new set of side affects you have to deal with. Some are not hard to get used to, other may be.
muzzyman88 is offline  
Old 01-17-2005, 09:52 PM
  #13  
Giant Nontypical
 
TFOX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
Default RE: Simplicity?

This is an issue that with SOME of the "advancements" .I agree that a whole new set of problems have come.I totally agree with 1 cam bow creating as much of a problem as they solved.String materials are better but how often did bows with steel cables go out of time?



Limb Savers are probably the biggest advancement in archery in recent history but they tend to wear out fast and break.They can even make the old bows shoot smoothe.( I am anxious to see how the new Alpha Shox hold up.)


Carbon arrows,that I love from a penetration and toughness standpoint are great but tend to degrade over time and I have gone BACK to the OLD ACC's. from the early 90's.Probably still the best overall arrow available.



BUT I have to say that My Hoyt Xtec with my Ultimate Fallaway,ACC's,Extreme Sniper XLT sight has performed flawlessly from the time I set it up untill now.I moved the sights once but moved them right back the next day I shot.It still tunes and shoots just the way it did when I set it up.This is after thousands and thousands of arrows.No tinkering here.



This is a direct result of better cam technology and better materials in the bow itself.6061 aluminum verses cast.6061 is more stable and there are no impurities in it like cast.Cast is a nice material and is stable in extreme weather changes but it is still not 6061.Limb materials, in the Hoyts especially, are performing at a higher standard than ever before in time.They are much less likely to be adversely affected by weather changes than the old glass limbs and last longer.


The new Hoyt Protec that I have just recieved is without a doubt the most accurate and forgiving bow that I have ever shot.It has some of the old shootable attributes with the new technology and is just a blast to shoot.It gives me a nice narrow grip that wasn't even possible in years past because the bow would break in half.It balances MUCH better than the old deflex bows of years past.I prefer a 38" a-a bow for targets and this bow is perfect for me with the xt2000 limbs( and the regular cam 1/2) but is available with much longer limbs for those that prefer a long a-a bow.The reason I say this is because not ALL bows are short unforgiving bows.There are a few manufactuers out there that understand there are a few that still enjoy a stable and forgiving bow to shoot.Those people are the ones that truly see the benefits of what the new technology has done for the sport.


I like to see the gadgets and gimmicks because they are what eventually will lead to something that is actually an improvement and not just another gimmick or reinvention of the wheel.
TFOX is offline  
Old 01-17-2005, 11:56 PM
  #14  
Fork Horn
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vernon Hills IL USA
Posts: 382
Default RE: Simplicity?

I can draw a 73 lb Outback as easily as I can draw back a 67lb FX. In the one case I get 73ft/lbs of KE on the later I get 61. With the longer risers of the parallel limbed bows I get a compact package for manueverabilty, while maintaining the stability characteristics of a longer bow. I get a bow that is way more quiet than anything I've experienced before.

I think that if a fella upgrades every year the changes are subtle and don't seem like much. But for a guy(like me) who changes every 5 years or so the differences are profound.
Buckfevr is offline  
Old 01-18-2005, 05:08 AM
  #15  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
Default RE: Simplicity?

I doubt modern bows allow a knowledgable archer to hit his target any more accurately. People have shot incredibly well with just about every type of bow for many decades. The advantages I've noticed have been more easily seen when looking at the average hunter. The biggest difference I've noticed comes in the area of manufacturing tolerances. I think limbs are better "matched", limb pocket tolerances are tighter, cam alignment is not as variable and string creep is more easily controlled. When you hand a bow to the average bowhunter that has these advantages, he shoots better for a longer time. Most bowhunters wouldn't recognize poor cam alignment and could be "hit in the face" by a sloppy limb pocket and would never know what hit 'em. I think it's easier to take almost any bow off the shelf and shoot well with it, even the real low-end models. The average bowhunter of yesteryear was incapable of timing or tuning a twin cam. They didn't recognize string stretch/creep and if they did, they didn't know what to do about it .

Shooting the very best always has required expert knowledge and still does. However, I truely believe an average hunter has a better chance of shooting consistantly well today, than he did 10 years ago.
Straightarrow is offline  
Old 01-18-2005, 06:30 AM
  #16  
Nontypical Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Onamia,MN.
Posts: 1,375
Default RE: Simplicity?

I think the trend for most archers to keep going to a shorter axle to axle bow is taking a step backwards enabling more torque issues and taking away from the forgiveness of the longer bows.
jsasker is offline  
Old 01-18-2005, 08:26 AM
  #17  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 262
Default RE: Simplicity?

Excellent thread PABowhntr and some very well thought out replies. I can offer a little different perspective and it's based on this quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckfevr
I think that if a fella upgrades every year the changes are subtle and don't seem like much. But for a guy(like me) who changes every 5 years or so the differences are profound.
14 years ago I was into shooting 3D as well as some indoor NFAA rounds in the winter. I shot the IBO National Triple crown a few years and went to one ASA Pro-Am so I was into the "archery" side as much as hunting. In 1994 when my son was born I quit shooting target archery but continued to bow hunt each year with the same bow. Now fast forward to 2005 and I am still using that same bow! For pure bow hunting I never felt the need to upgrade so I continued to use the trusty 1993 Jennings Carbon Extreme for 14 or 15 years now. At the time I bought it the Carbon Extreme was one of the best performance bows made and it has the cast riser, steel cables etc….

This year I got bit by the archery bug again and went out and shot some of the new bows. I borrowed a friends Mathews LX for a weekend trial. I spent a few hours at the local Bowtech dealer and ended up ordering an Allegiance. After spending just a few days shooting the LX and the Allegiance when I went back to the bow I had used for 15 years it felt like crap! Much more recoil, more noise, slower, and the one that bothered me the most is that is has a spongy rear wall compared to today's technology.

I don't personally think the drop-away rests are a huge advancement if you took the time to get good fletching clearance. I also don't think the pure carbon arrows are that great like most of the community does. I fall right between the spine ranges for the pure carbons. With my new bow I will be shooting ACC's, the same arrow I used for 3D shooting back 14 years ago! I do, however, think the new sights are a huge advancement over what was available 14 years ago and I will be using a Hogg-It.

I think the advancements in bow technology have been for the better with only a few small trade-offs. The real test for me will be when my Allegiance arrives. I still shoot my old Jennings fairly well and my hunting setup has an old star hunter rest, talk about low technology! The other day I shot a 297/42X during my 2nd indoor round in 14 years using my old aluminum practice arrows (which do not all spin straight, fletches torn etc…). I can't wait to get the Allegiance and start comparing the pure accuracy. If I can't beat 297/42X fairly easily then maybe PABowhntr is right and all that technology has not accomplished much!
Blodg is offline  
Old 01-19-2005, 04:48 AM
  #18  
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
 
PABowhntr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
Default RE: Simplicity?

Thank you folks for the replies and for the thoughtful discussion. I have been wrestling with issues such as this lately and have not been able to form any personal conclusions.
PABowhntr is offline  
Old 01-19-2005, 06:26 AM
  #19  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
Default RE: Simplicity?

Technology has and will continue to increase over time. My shop sees the results of technology time and time again when a customer vacates his old equipment for new. They say many times that they'll keep their old bow for a 'back up', but they never go back to that bow. At least that's what we've found with every one of our customers.

The reasons are twofold. First, their new equipment has the technology enhancements. Second, they are set up better than in the past. The draw lengths are set better, the components are matched better, the bow is tuned better, and the customer is taught better.

In the old days we didn't know anywhere near as much about proper form and training as we do today. We didn't think too much about some of the issues that enhance or degrade shooting effectiveness. Now keep in mind that I'm talking in generalities and that there are always exceptions.

One of the things that I discussed in my recent ATA Seminar was the use of new tools that are now available. Lasers are just one example. I also discussed various forms of tuning and shooting. We discussed differences in customer usage and how that can be applied to equipment selection. Plus much, much more.

Has the equipment/technology changed? Yes, and so has the capability of a GOOD Pro Shop. Are things as simple as they used to be? Not at all; but, what is? Some people may be able to work on one bow, their bow, but a PRO Shop has to work on every bow. Part of the ATA (previously AMO) game plan is to educate the Dealers so that they can better help the customer. Dealers teaching Dealers and industry experts teaching Dealers can only lead to a better industry. Yes, archery is much more an industry than it was 20-30 years ago.

A statement that I use quite a bit is; "A bad archer can make good equipment look bad; whereas, a good archer can make bad equipment look good."
Len in Maryland is offline  
Old 01-19-2005, 07:17 AM
  #20  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 858
Default RE: Simplicity?

Is today's equipment geared towards and heading to less tuning? A trully maintenance free (or shall we say maintenance-reduced) bow?

At what cost I might ask?
I beleive it is Frank....but don't get stuck looking at the top contenders/producers to see the changes that your talking about.

They break the ground and have the ideas and create the shift and turn the heads..sometimes just for it's own sake with the tradeoffs being what they are as you well know.

But patent or no patent...we can surmise that every new idea spawns another in someone else. I see a gradual "tweaking" of many things that one comapny had the idea for, and another company took the ball an ran.
(Darton/Hoyt for one instance).

The answer to the question as I see it, "Are they better and is it worth it?" is ....Maybe not at first. But Yes when you look at the medians of the industry over the course of a decade.

Take a Renegade Nuge bow....no offense here but about as mediocre a bow as you can get IMO

Compare it to a XI legend from even 6-7 years ago.

Pick any bow you want really.

Obviously there were some great shooters back than but Quieter? Faster? Better balanced? More forgiving? Well...apple to apples now
Trushot_archer is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.