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RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

5 shot, I know some people question the validity of shooting a head through some of the mediums you use in your tests, but I agree with you that those tests are valuable in finding out how a head will hold up in less than ideal shooting situations.
I'm glad CG came on here and informed us of his experience because it is information like this that will help others in the future. While 5 shot's tests are useful, the only test that really matters is how a product performs on game in a hunting situation. I use Snypers and love them, but I definitely know they have their limitations and would be hesitant to use them on larger game.

Silent, you crack me up man. I love when you get involved in these debates because your sassy comments are a riot. The way you talk, if you had half the knowledge you think you have you would be designing the next bow that would change the industry.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> That isn't meant as an insult, but it's obvious you put your own knowledge on a higher plain than everyone else here despite the fact that you know nothing of their background. I don't know if you are really that confrontational or if you just like getting a rise out of people (which is what I suspect), but keep it up it always puts a smile on my face.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

5shot,

Do me a favor and fire some broadheads into a 2x6. That was a humbling experience for me...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Has any body thought that it was just a dud head that slipped through their quality control.
If you can send the head back and explain what happened on the shot in detail.
I am positive that they will look into it and most likely send a replacement head.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but it's obvious you put your own knowledge on a higher plain than everyone else here despite the fact that you know nothing of their background. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I am not trying to sound egotistical but I do feel like I know more than most of the guys that post in here. The background comes from reading their posts of the last couple of years. There are several guys in here that when they talk I listen, whether I agree with them or not I respect what they have to say. Then you have some that have a fair amount of knowledge but not really enough to add anything to the conversation yet they jump on the bandwagon and add their 1/2 cents. Then you have guys that know plenty but they don't offer advice(because half of the time the guy you're giving advice too thinks he knows more than you anyway) they just read and keep their mouth shut until someone starts to profuse such haneous BS that they simply can't take it anymore. I mean half the posts I know what the response is going to be by the same group of individuals before I ever read it, every post everytime it is posted. I mean if those guys are trying to build up their number of posts that is one thing but please quit beating the "you can shoot a judo point through a Sherman Tank if your bow is tuned properly" crap to death and the "you can't shoot the world's sharpest broahead through a sheet of paper crap unless your bow is tuned".

While we're at it will someone defined "tuned". There are Olypmic Archers shooting bows that are "tuned" to get the best groups possible. But they are getting one inch tears when you shoot through paper. Well if you are getting one inch tears you may be getting the best groups but you sure aren't getting the best penetration. So by tuned everyone must mean Paper Tuned because I know of no better indication of fish tailing or eratic flight(the keys to penetration). I know of ways to "tweak" groups but no better way of indicating flaws in arrow flight(the paper don't lie). So for my hunting equpment "tuned" means paper tuned and then tuning my arrows and adjusting my sights accordingly. Not tinkering with my rest until my braodheads hit wher my field point do. I don't shoot at deer with field points if they both hit where they are supposed to then that is fine, if they don't then that is fine too, as long as I know my arrows are flying straight and transferring their KE in a straight line through the animal. As opposed to an arrow that is in the middle of a fish tail on impact that hits and turns it's KE into momentum that is transferred into a different direction. That's just what I believe after all of my years of trying and reading and listening. You know what they say confidence is the key<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Silent, I agree that there are times when I know what the responses will be before reading a post. A perfect example is the "Should I buy and 'X' brand bow?" post. I know there are going to be 20 replies saying "Go to a pro shop and shoot as many bows as possible and pick what feels best to you." While that is good advice, I'd bet half the time the person still buys 'X' brand bow because they want to be in the "in" crowd or whatever.
On the tuning thing I also agree that proper arrow flight is essential to good penetration. I think that paper tuning is a good indicator of proper arrow flight, but is not the only indicator. For example, I have had cases where I was getting bullet holes in paper, but when I tried fixed blades (which I don't know why I bother because I always come back to mech.s for deer anyway) I couldn't get consistent groups. That indicates a flight problem to me. After making some minor adjustments the broadheads grouped, albeit not with my field points, but that is another story altogether. Then I went back to the paper and was still getting bullet holes. So, you can be getting bullet holes but still need some fine tuning to work the bugs out. If you get a chance check out Easton's tuning guide. That thing has a ton of tuning tips in addition to paper tuning that you may find helpful. Some of it you may not find useful, but it's interesting nonetheless.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you get a chance check out Easton's tuning guide. That thing has a ton of tuning tips in addition to paper tuning that you may find helpful. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> I apreciate that huntingbry but I have read through the Easton tuning guide several differnt times. My point was more along the lines off if you are group tuning and you have to move your arrow rest into a position that causes you to not get bullet holes then I will try and fix the arrows and the broadheads not the bow.

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

I see. I too never understood the logic behind paper tuning and group tuning your bow and then changing your rest so that the broadheads hit with the field points. It would seem to me that after doing that your bow wouldn't paper tune correctly anymore. I would think that if you are getting nice tight groups with your broadheads, but they aren't hitting with your field points it would make sense just to change your sights. I don't know. I guess that's why I love mechanicals. I get my bow so it's throwing darts and then make sure the mechs hit the same spot and I'm good to go. I guess sometimes we make it harder than it has to be.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

5shot , Your broadhead tests are great! Keep em coming!

I read a broadhead review in a bowhunting mag just recently that had some of the same testing procedures that you use.

Too severe? Nah!

"Nocked,cocked & ready to rock"

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Man you guys got me spooked. I was all prepared to take some snpers into the elk country in 2 weeks and now i dont know. I have been down in the basement all night trying to figure out my bow tuning problems and took a break to read a few things hear and post a problem i have with my bow. I would like to say i e-mailed bruce Barry personally and asked him what head i should use on elk with the 69lb of ke and he said to use the snypers. I may just go back to my old trilock SS heads that i used for years, but never get a good bloodtrail due to the small size. Now i am rally spooked. What to do?

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Wow, take a few days off to go elk hunting and things get interesting while your gone...story of my life.

While I do feel the Snyper is a good mechanical, if I absolutely had to shoot a mech on elk, the Snyper wouldn't be my first choice. The reason I feel this way comes from an experience I had last fall.

I should preface my experience by saying that I too shot the snypers into plywood, steel drum, etc.. All the testing indicated that it would perform very nicely on whitetails. Early in the season I took a doe with a snyper. The shot wasn't one of my best as it got the liver and one lung. I followed an adequate blood trail into the corn and found the doe in short order. She was laying down in the corn row but she wasn't dead. I could have left and came back later but that seemed cruel to me seeing that she was laboring to breath. To make a long story short the follow up shot put an end to her but the tip of the head was curled over like the toe of a court jester's shoe. The head hit nothing but bone and did not completely pass through the animal.

I can easily accept CG's description of his friends experience and I am not really surprised by the outcome. There is no doubt in my mind that the tip of the head broke off on the way in. If there is any surprise in this saga it is that CG's friend got as much penetration as he did.

On the flip side I have a buddy that blew comletely through an elk last year shooting 54 pounds of KE. Of course he was using a fixed blade head.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Well,now that the pissing match seems to be calming down.Maybe we can get back to the Snyper and wether or not it was an isolated incodent or was it an actuall problem with the design.It seems that there have been a few other reports of the same thing happening with these heads,so maybe it is in the design.

I agree that the Steelheads from Rocket would do an awesome job on Elk and I would not be afraid to use them.I would not use the heads that I use on deer because they have an aluminum ferrule and I am sure that wouldn't hold up to an elk.

I also get sick of the people saying to use a fix blade head because most fixed heads wouldn't hold up to a steelhead.The blades on Steelheads will bend but that is by design and is to ensure that you have penetration,hit extremely hard bone and the blade bends and continues forward and still cuts.Most fixed heads WILL NOT do this,they hit bone and stop or twist up and stop.I have twisted Thunderheads to look like spin wing vanes on deer.There are design flaws with both fixed and mechanicals and I like these types of discussions to point out advantages and disadvantages of both.

I know a lot think that cut to tip is best but they are probably the weekest of the bunch,except for a few that are extremely thick and heavy.You take piece of metal that thin and hit bone and it has to curl.

This is probably what makes the Muzzy so popular,it provides a chisel point(as are the Steelheads) that is by far the strongest way to go and put sharp blades with a moderate cut and you will be fine.

Silentassasin,you make valid points about tune but there is a lot more to tuning than arrow rest,nock heith and vane clearance.I am sure you know this due to advanced knowledge <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> of setting up bows.just pointing out to those that don't know.The cams or cams must be in perfect sink,they must not have any lean.A string and cable must be built properly and the right amount of twist must be built into them.I actually have a 1 cam that is tuned to be able to letup as much as 1/2" and it will still chrony the same speed.This is easier to achieve with a 2 cam but rare in a 1 cam(actually mine is the only one that this person has done that can do this).This bow had a professional(certified) build the string and was laser tuned and put on a Hooter Shooter to be fine tuned and I can say without a doubt that this is the most forgiving and best tuned bow I have ever shot.

You get a bow tuned to this level and the paper will be perfect,provided the shooter doesn't torque the heck out of the bow.I hate to see people that torque to paper tune their bow because they always end up with an untuned bow that shoots good paper.Those people need to have someone else tune the bow and then learn to shoot it thru paper without torquing it.

Yes,I can tune a bow very well by myself but got an oportunity to get my bow done very cheap and I said what the heck.Glad I did.My scores have improved drastically and my confidence is soring with them.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Boy we sure do take this stuff seriously don't we? I'm sure glad we do.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

It was asked a bit earlier why you would shoot a mech head if you can geta fixed blade to fly.
I'll give a few reasons.
1. Even if you get fixed heads to hit the same spot as field points....this is done without a lot of wind. And wind, and things change...FAST. Accuracy is MORE important than head design
2. Many test have shown mech heads to penetrate BETTER than fixed heads. Whether these tests are accurate...who knows. I am developing tests that I feel are a bit more relevant (NO offence to ANY other tests....I just see some flaws with what has been conventional testing...you GOTTA start with fur in my book).
3. some of the mech heads are just plain TOUGH

I am not saying WHICH to use...I'll save that for my new tests. Just giving a couple of reasons WHY some choose to use them even WITH a well tuned bow.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Stealth Force...I will agree that accuracy is more important than head design...shot placement is the most important factor in whether you make a vital hit or not. You could kill a deer with a field point shot through the lungs...no doubt.

As far as tough...I guess that's relative. Tough by mechanical standards...or by fixed head standards????? I think 5 shot has done some very good testing, and the results show that yes there are some good mechanical heads....but there are better fixed heads. Personally I like the Magnus 2 blade 125gr head. I've killed alot of deer with them, and I doubt seriously, any mechanical head would even come close in penetration, and definitley not in strength. I will agree that there are a few mechanical heads that seem to be pretty good heads. But for me, I feel why take the chance of a (mechanical) failure...even if it was only say...1 in 100?? What if that 1 was the biggest buck of your life? Was it worth it? CG's friends (failure) may have been a fluke, but it sounded like it was also a fluke that he actually ended up getting the elk.

As far as the wind factor....I don't think it really is. I've killed deer on very windy days with no problem at all(with magnus heads). Of course all my shots are under 30 yds(most end up being under 20). For a really long shot, yes there may be some affect, but the average hunter won't be taking that shot anyhow, and then you run into the question of whether or not your mechanical head has enough energy to work properly at long range.

I think this debate is like the carbon vs. aluminum debate...it will never go away, and both sides will always stand on what they believe. I guess that's why manufacturers make both style heads.

I guess the thing that bothers me the most about some folks that use mechanical heads, is that they are using them as a "band-aid" to fix a poorly tuned bow. And we all know that happens ALOT!!! Just look at all the threads that pop up here..."my b-heads won't fly...guess I'll just go with mechanicals". What a joke. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

I know alot of folks on this board, that are good archers, and shoot well tuned bows, use mechanicals....and have success. I think that's great, and hey at least they tune their bows, and have enough KE to support using them. I feel that if we are bowhunters, we owe it to ourselves and the game we hunt to learn how to tune our bows, or take it to someone that does and have it done. Then, if you choose to use mechanicals, go for it...at least you'll be getting all your setup has to offer.

But....IMO, if I can get my (fixed)heads to group and fly straight,(and I can...3" @ 30 yds) out of a well tuned bow, I see no advantage to using a mechanical head. I gain nothing but a chance(maybe even very slim, but still a chance) of failure.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

5 shot could it be possiable to do a test on bone. i know plywood is not near as hard as bone and the steel drum is not as hard as bone because the steel will give unlike bone which will just break.i know bones even fresh ones are rock hard just a thought

you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

I have some stuff I'm testing that seems very close to bone. Basically, a thermoset resin and woodflour. I'll be starting extensive broadhead tests with this stuff when I find the right thickness and perfect my "synthetic steak" :)
WV, I agree that the Magnus heads ARE damn tough, I will say that there have been a few tests showing heads like the Rocket 125 as getting even BETTER penetration (I susspect blade surface area is the key here) while being tough as nails...even vs. fixed blade heads.
Nice thick blades like those on the Magnus really do help with the toughness...no doubt, but the tips don't seem to be as efficient at breaking bone (don't hit the shoulder and this point becomes moot) and the large surface area of the blades SEEMS to be something slowing the blades down when they hit the target.
NOTE: I am NOT dissing the Magnus (or ANY head) only suggesting that SOME well built mech heads are more than tough enough for ANY game....and SOME seem to penetrate BETTER...in some tests.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

It is very simple. I keep holding the snyper in one hand and the rocky ti in the other and I keep looking at them. The large amount of damage on the one and the negligible amount on the other... it is very simple.

They need to make the Snyper out of titanium.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

While we're at it will someone defined "tuned". There are Olypmic Archers shooting bows that are "tuned" to get the best groups possible. But they are getting one inch tears when you shoot through paper. Well if you are getting one inch tears you may be getting the best groups but you sure aren't getting the best penetration. So by tuned everyone must mean Paper Tuned because I know of no better indication of fish tailing or eratic flight(the keys to penetration). I know of ways to "tweak" groups but no better way of indicating flaws in arrow flight(the paper don't lie). So for my hunting equpment "tuned" means paper tuned and then tuning my arrows and adjusting my sights accordingly. Not tinkering with my rest until my braodheads hit wher my field point do. I don't shoot at deer with field points if they both hit where they are supposed to then that is fine, if they don't then that is fine too, as long as I know my arrows are flying straight and transferring their KE in a straight line through the animal. As opposed to an arrow that is in the middle of a fish tail on impact that hits and turns it's KE into momentum that is transferred into a different direction. That's just what I believe after all of my years of trying and reading and listening. You know what they say confidence is the key<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That paragraph pretty much shows your knowlege of archery.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

When most bowhunters refer to "tuned" , it means tuned to achieve the best arrow flight for maximum penetration.
A competition shooter "tunes" to get maximum accuracy , mostly by group tuning.
Most guys here (not all) , would be shocked to see what kind of paper tears alot of competition shooters have. The ones I know never even paper tune their competition bows , they know what the result would be.

Once again , you really should read everything carefully before spouting off about how I came here and accused anyone of anything. You do realize , that you've pretty much lost any credibility as a knowlegable individual just by your 9th grade rhetoric that seems to show everytime you make a post. Oh yeah , whats with the "babye at the end of your posts (or email , which I'll explain to everyone if needed)? Is that one of those things the teenagers are saying these days as a way of saying , I guess I told you?<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

"It's better to remain silent and appear ignorant than it is to open your mouth and remove all doubt"<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

"Nocked,cocked & ready to rock"

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Buck, you may have something their, titainium snypers! that would address the tip bending, but it would raise the cost. Not a bad idea though.

TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That paragraph pretty much shows your knowlege of archery.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

When most bowhunters refer to "tuned" , it means tuned to achieve the best arrow flight for maximum penetration.
A competition shooter "tunes" to get maximum accuracy , mostly by group tuning.
Most guys here (not all) , would be shocked to see what kind of paper tears alot of competition shooters have. The ones I know never even paper tune their competition bows , they know what the result would be.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> One thing that bothers me when guys bring up the fact that competition shooters dont paper tune, or they shoot great with big tears is that they ARE NOT SHOOTING BROADHEADS! the law of physics will tell you that in a broadhead situation your arrows will benifit by flying as straight as possible as soon as possible. Paper tuning isnt everything, but its a great tool, and great place to start if you notice poor arrow flight. Why mess around blindly if you see poor arrow flight when you can shoot through a paper and see whats going on first.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Your correct , I didn't mention it because I figured it as being the obvious.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Regarding titanium snypers. I e-mailed them a few weeks back, asking if they had ever considered coming out with a titanium snyper at 75 grains (don't ask), and their response was that titanium was actually heavier than aluminum, so the weight would increase. This leads me to believe that the Snyper ferrule must be made of aluminum, and at the present design is at it's minimum possible weight of 100 grains.

I'm no metalurgist, but I highly suspect aluminum has nowhere near the shear strength of steel or titanium. Perhaps this is the problem with the weak spot suggested in this thread?

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Titanium 3 blade 1.5" 125gr snyper=Perfection. How come nobody ever listens to me. ;)

"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

I think we are alll missing the point here.

NOBODY has any business shooting any mechanical at Elk size game or larger. If you cannot shoot fixed blades or cut to tip broadheads stick to deer and smaller critters. Tune your bow and your fixed blades will fly every bit as accuarate as mechanicals. All mechanicals are good for is people who do not want to tune their bow PERFECT so they buy mechanicals and call it good enough.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Coorey oo6

I will bet that my bow is tuned much better than yours and I CHOOSE to use them because they fly better than any fixed head,period.They also penetrate better than most fixed heads,excluding a 2 blader and they fly like crap at higher speeds on carbons.As a matter of fact I just tried shooting a fixed out of my bow at 30 yards and with 3" vanes.My bow is tuned well enough to shoot them accurately at 30 yards,even with 3" vanes.Now if there was a 20 mph cross wind and I had a 40 yard shot,I don't think they would do as well.I would be confident with my Rockets.

I would choose a Steelhead on elk and not be afraid of penetration at all.I would be more confident in them on an elk than a Muzzy(and I like muzzy's).The only way I would choose a fixed for elk is if the place I hunted wouldn't allow them.

Edited by - tfox on 09/09/2002 19:41:10

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Heres a reply from a broadhead company to my question. My question shows up first.....
Hi I am confused by all the different stories about expandables. I am
spending a lot of money to go on an elk hunt and want to have no trouble
with killing. As a manufacturer please enlighten me on your recommendation.
I dont want to make judgement from stories on the web because they rarely say
what they are using for a bow, or KE abilities. I am sure you have done some
research on the capabilities of elk killing with your hrads so please tell
me what you think and have found.
I shoot a Mathews MQ1 with 390 grain head/shaft combo arrows. I shoot at
72lbs at a speed of 285fps for a KE of about 70lb. The arrow is pretty light
so i am worried about momentum and long range shots.
I plan on using a mechanicle because last year i used a small diameter
fixed blade and had very little to no blood trail on a huge bull and never found it.
Please advise on what broadhead is your recommendation from your research
and field results. I want a good penetrating head, with good blood. are
expandables for me, or just something to worry about
Thank you, Schmalts
His reply...

First, The Spitfire is a friction fit broadhead that has some very unique
properties. Spitfires open every time regardless of angle but can also
close either by suddenly stopping the arrow, by clamping pressure inside the
animal or by having the blades pivot forward as the arrow backed out. By
using retention clips instead of rubber bands Spitfires have the potential
of resetting the blades. If you would like to see this for yourself try
this experiment. Find a foam target that you can shoot through, but one
that will also stop the arrow somewhere along the shaft so that the point of
the arrow protrudes the back side but the fletches are still on the front
side. Tape a piece of paper on the BACK of the target and then shoot an
arrow. You will find the Spitfire closed, but the paper will indicate that
it was completely opened as it passed through the target. Reliability is
always a concern. Like all things there are nay sayers that claim that
mechanicals will not open.

Mechanical heads in general have both pros and cons. The Spitfire is the
straightest ((0.002) of all broadheads (fixed, replaceable or mechanical) on
the market today and is a very good choice for use on just about any game so
long as attention is paid to the conditions surrounding the hunt. The
ShockWave is almost as straight ((0.003) and has the added consideration of
a more wallet friendly price point. The straightness is a contributing
factor to the accuracy of the head which when combined with an aerodynamic
ferrule and blade design make both broadheads ultimately easier to group and
tune than a standard Thunderhead. In fact Spitfires shot from a shooting
machine at 60 yards will hit the exact hole as a field point (I have not yet
performed this test at 60 yards with ShockWaves only out to 40 yards so
far).

Reliability is always a question. Like all things there are nay sayers that
claim that mechanicals will not open. While I cannot speak for other
brands, I have done extensive simulations and testing to determine which
conditions could prevent the Spitfire/ ShockWave from opening and have not
found any which prevent the blades from opening. I have even frozen the
broadheads in water in one case and dried the heads in mud in another. In
both cases they opened. One advantage of the Spitfire is cutting diameter.
The ShockWave is 1.25 cutting diameter the Spitfire is 1.5. Considering the
average deer chest cavity is 18 inches wide, the ShockWave would cut 22.5
inches of tissue on a broadside pass through while the Spitfire would cut 27
inches on the same shot. Bowhunting relies on hemorrhage to bring the
animal down. The Spitfire provides a 20% greater chance to cut blood
vessels than the ShockWave and 24% greater chance than a Thunderhead.

Spitfire along with Thunderhead blades are the sharpest in the industry.
Our Diamizing process take blade sharpness to the ultimate edge with an
ultra polish that perfects the edge.

On a separate note, few people realize that broadhead penetration has very
little to do with broadheads. Rather, penetration has almost everything to
do with arrow flight. A well tuned 50 pound bow with arrows that fly
without wobble penetrates better than an 80 pound bow with aberrant arrow
flight. Probably the greatest disadvantage of Spitfires or mechanicals in
general is that as a group they tend to be much more critical of arrow spine
than replaceable or fixed bladed broadheads. Because there is a loss of
energy of about 1 to 3 ft/lbs. when a Spitfire contacts a target, and
because this energy loss is directly opposite the direction of travel, an
improperly spined arrow will have an additive effect. Generally an
improperly spined arrow fails to penetrate well regardless of broadhead
style because the energy is partially lost in some direction other than
straight forward when the arrow strikes an animal. A standard broadhead in
this scenario would most likely penetrate and stick in the animal with
enough of the shaft inside to lodge it until the animal does something that
causes the shaft to break or possibly get pulled out during escape.
Spitfires along with most other mechanicals will almost instantly back out
because of the additive effect of the spine related energy loss, reverse
energy of opening the blades and the fact the blades can close easily
preventing any anchoring effect. Our records indicate that 86% of all
customers that have had bad luck with mechanicals are using an improperly
spined arrow for their hunting adventures. Arrow flight is especially
important on high angle shots. If the arrow is wobbling back and forth or
up and down, then when it hits the target/animal the energy continues to the
side rather than straight forward. On a mechanical this would have the
effect of pivoting the broadhead and reducing penetration. Keep in mind
that if your arrow flight is good then increased angle has NO effect.

Another thing to consider is momentum. Momentum is often disregarded in
archery because people tend to concentrate on kinetic energy. Let me
explain the difference. Kinetic energy is the impact energy of the
projectile. It is a very good way to determine how efficient your bow
transfers stored energy in the limbs to dynamic energy in the arrow. For
the most part kinetic energy in the 50 ft/lbs. to 60 ft/lbs. range is ample
for taking animals in the deer to elk range. Kinetic energy in the 60
ft/lbs. to 70 ft/lbs. will effectively take any animal in North America.
For example, Chuck Adams took his 1400 pound Kodiak Grizzly Bear with about
65 ft/lbs. of kinetic energy. I believe he used an arrow in the 630 grain
range that traveled about 220 fps. While there are several arrow/speed
combinations that would produce 65 ft/lbs. of kinetic energy, Chuck opted
for a heavier slower arrow because of the momentum. Momentum is the ability
of the projectile to continue in motion. Momentum is a linear function of
mass. The idea is the greater the mass the more resistance is required to
slow or stop the object. Think of it this way if someone were to pitch a
baseball and a bowling ball to a batter, and both balls had the identical
amount of kinetic energy even though one is traveling very fast and the
other is traveling very slow. The batter would be able to hit the baseball
and move it in the opposite direction very easily while the bowling ball
would most likely break the bat. The bowling ball has tremendously greater
momentum and therefore is much more difficult to stop or slow down.

I'm including the equation to calculate your kinetic energy. My suggestion
is this. Go to an archery shop that has a chronograph and a supply of
arrows that weigh from 350 to 550 grains. Shoot these arrows through the
chronograph to determine the speed. Then calculate the kinetic energy for
each speed/weight combination. This will also allow you to hear the noise
associated with each arrow. Then choose an arrow based on the game you
intend to hunt. Faster, lighter arrows work well for deer sized animals.
Medium-fast, mid-weight arrows work well for large deer to elk sized
animals. Slower heavier arrows work well for elk and larger. Also, ask
your archery shop what they would suggest for your specific hunting niche.
I personally have light-weight arrows (320 grains) for 3 D tournaments,
Slightly heavier arrows (420 grains) for deer and moderately heavy arrows
(535 grains) for elk.

To calculate the kinetic energy of your bow use the following equation:

(Arrow Weight in Grains)(Velocity)2 = Ft/Lbs.
450240

Spitfires have been used to take all sorts of North American game including
caribou, elk, moose and even kodiak brown bears. The performance of the
Spitfire and penetration results exceed any other broadhead in the same
class. As far as we can tell the heads open every time and they are the
fastest opening mechanical on the market (0.0008 seconds). However, because
of the retention clips they also close when stopped suddenly. This is
because the direction of the blades reverses as the arrow stops, and as the
blades swing forward there is sufficient energy to close the blades back
into the slots. The retention clips then hold the blades in place in the
closed position. Additionally, retention clips use less energy than rubber
band or o-ring systems. ShockWaves incorporate an o-ring/guillotine system,
which efficiently holds the blades shut but allows the blades to easily
slice through the o-ring with minimal energy expenditure. ShockWaves are
relatively new but have already proved themselves in the bowhunting world on
animals as large as moose and bison. From the results we've seen so far we
believe a lot of animals will fall when faced off against ShockWaves in the
woods.

I would hesitate to recommend any broadhead prior to knowing that your bow
is tuned and that your arrows are flying well. However, if you feel that
your set up is working well, then I don't think you would have any trouble
with either Spitfires or ShockWaves. From the results we have seen in the
past during our own hunts and the high number of letters and calls
supporting Spitfires, our confidence is 100% that they will perform well in
any circumstance.

If you have any other questions please don't hesitate to call me at
800-323-1279.

Thanks for contacting us regarding mechanical broadheads.

Cary J. Pickands
Technical Support Specialist
New Archery Products, Corp.

Edited by - schmalts on 09/09/2002 21:09:36

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Cory006, I think YOU are missing the point. YOU don't have ANY business telling the rest of us what business WE have shooting Elk or bigger with a mech head. Hmmmmmmm for that matter, I guess I have no business telling you that...but it needed to be said.
I tune my bow PERFECTLY. YES, I get my Muzzy's to hit the same place as field points, but........tests have shown many mech heads to penetrate AS WELL or sometimes BETTER than ANY other head. I know YOU DON'T want to hear that, but it is TRUE! Get over it.
As posted on the Rocket web page (you can choose to concider the source) The current World record was shot with a mech head! And if I'm not mistaken, it was with a Wolverine 3 (all of 57 grains!).
schmalts, excellent info in that post. Of course one again should consider the source, as MOST tests I have seen show the spitfire to be one of the slower opening heads. But the rest of the info was good.
I won't go into the heavy vs. light, KE vs momentum vs velocity debate again (well....unless someone REALLY wants to start THAT again) But I will say that there are more than 1 ways to skin a cat (or shoot an elk) Light and fast seems to work JUST as well (ask that record holder) as heavy and slow. Purely a personal preferance. BOTH WILL work.

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

Stealth Force and Tfox,

You can use whatever broadhead you want but IMHO mechanicals are better suited to deer sized game.

I doubt very much that ANY mechanical head is going to out penetrate a 2 blade cut to tip broadhead. I would take that bet anyday. I tested the Rocket Steelhead against Wasp Hammmer and Gametracker First Cut and guess what?? The First Cut won followed by the Wasp and then came the Steelhead(the blades do NOT open on impact rather they opened when they are a inch into the target) and it did not penetrate as far as either the fixed blade Wasp or the Cut to tip First Cut. If you do not believe me buy some and test for yourself. DO NOT believe any advertisement in ANY magazine because they all say the same thing "the world's best Broadhead" or " the world's sharpest" or "the best penetrating head in the world".

As far as using a mechanical on Elk you probably will be fine if u have 65 lbs KE or greater. I guess it is a matter of personal preference. I myself was thinking of using the Steelhead on an upcoming Moose hunt but decided to go with the Gametracker First Cut because I want to make sure I get MAXIMUM pentration. What happens with a mechanical head when it doesn't acheive a pass through and the animal doesn't leave much of a blood trail(because 99% of mech are not fully opened on impact). I would really hate spending all year getting ready for a hunt and at the moment of truth make a good shot and have a mehanical head fail and RUIN my whole year....

Good Luck to everyone this year regardless of what head you choose to adorn the tip of your arrow!!!

RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!

I agree Corey006 that the Steelhead will not out penetrate a 2 blader,nothing will.2 bladers are not the best choice in the accuracy or toughness department either.There are some extremely heavy ones that are extremely tough but take an extremely heavy arrow to keep foc acceptable.A normal weight 2 blader is usually very thin on the end and can curl when hitting bone.

There are drawbacks with every head.Use what you are comfortable with.

Oh yeah,you are right about adds but my info is not from adds but independant testing.Also the Rockets are guaranteed to be the best penetrating.If you don't agree then get your money back.It is that simple.