trevwill

Do you consider and arrow - carbon, which weighs 390gns THAT IS COMPLETE WITH FLETINGS, INSERT, BROADHEAD (100GN.) AND NOCK. Too light to fire from a modern single cam, compound bow?

Arthur P

Depends on your draw weight and draw length. If you're shooting 40 pounds at 28" draw, of course it's not too light. If you're shooting 90 pounds at 32 inches, the bow will eventually blow up... probably sooner than later.

I'd still like to see every state adopt a 400 grain minimum legal arrow weight for hunting though.

Paul L Mohr

I wouldn't! I hate it when states put regulations on archery that are set numbers. Some shoot different set ups and you can't just say that every one has to have X amount of weight arrows. Although 400 grns would cover a fairly broad range. I have a 26 inch draw length and shoot 60 lbs. Four hundred grns is close to my upper limit for weight.

While I'm not a speed demon, I would like to stay above 200 fps.

And with even lighter set ups wouldn't it be hard to get the arrow weight that high and still get the correct spine? Even with aluminums? I don't know I never really checked the charts to see what the heaviest arrow was.

I think that arrow would work fine for you as long as everything else is good. There are people shooting lighter arrows. But I will agree with Arthur, it sort of depends on what your set up is.

Paul

Arthur P

If you can't get a 60 pound compound at 26" draw to shoot a 400 gn arrow over 200 fps, you need to get yourself a good recurve.

Paul L Mohr

Mine will arthur, since it's a bowtech. But I bet some older bows would have trouble doing it, like my buddies 13 year old darton maverick with round wheels.

No way could I get that out of a recurve! I just ain't that much of a man. I couldn't draw and hold 60 lbs with one, maybe 45. And then I wouldn't hit anything with it any way.

I did some checking and with a 25 inch draw and 45 lbs of pull you can get just under 400 grns with an aluminum arrow. You could hit it with a heavier tip and a slightly over spined arrow. So I guess a 400 grn limit wouldn't be to far out there. It would really put the small person at a dissadvantage in speed though. It sucks being little, believe me I know.

How about a rule that imposes a set KE figure isntead of arrow weight, since that is really what we are looking at, whether your set up has enough energy to harvest a deer ethically.

And if you can't draw a bow that reaches it for what ever reason, you get to use a crossbow instead. I bet you would love that one wouldn't you.

I just don't like seeing states imposing these types of regulations because they are often set by ingnorant people that know nothing about the sport or equipment and end up being unrealistic or sensless sometimes. You want a 400 grn limit, it might end up being a 520 grn limit, which would suck for someone like me.

Paul

Arthur P

Absolutely NOT! As you know, there isn't a recurve or longbow made that can equal the KE numbers of a hgh performance compound at equal draw weight. At the same time, you know stickbows have been used quite successfully for hunting over thousands and thousands of years. Using KE, someone with a malicious agenda could lead the ignorant into concluding that anyone not generating some impossible KE figure should not be allowed to hunt.

The idea behind the minimum arrow weight is to achieve momentum, not KE. The only reason light arrows work at all for hunting now is due to the high speeds. It's far easier to get a certain level of momentum with arrow weight, but it can be done with speed. For instance, a 350 grain arrow at 300 fps achieves exactly the same level of momentum as a 500 grain arrow at 150 fps. Both will kill the animal but the KE levels are very different. In fact, the 350 gn arrow at 300 fps has to generate DOUBLE the energy of the 700 grainer to reach the same level of momentum.

Kinetic energy is not always a good - or even valid - indicator of penetration potential. Now, a minimum level of momentum, say .4000 pound/seconds, might be the thing to do.

Paul L Mohr

I'll agree with that. I knew my above post would get your attention and knew what you would think of it. That is sort of the same reaction I have when I see someone wanting to impose other things.

And I am in agreement with the arrow weight issue. I do not want to see someone with a light set up shooting 200 grn arrows just to get the speed. It wouldn't be very effective, you and I know that, but others don't. They see guys shooting 300 grn arrows and think light arrows work just the same. Like you said, you have to consider the higher speeds these rigs are shooting as well. I am not as extreme as you are though on the weight issue. I wouldn't have a problem using 350 grn arrows with my set up really. I feel they would work alright with the size deer I hunt and the the ranges I hunt them at, with proper shot placement that is.

It's obvious momentum is important. Other wise you would see traditional shooters using really light arrows to get better speed. Of course this doesn't work very well on game. I'm sure it's been tried though.

I did some simple tests with my own bow a few years ago and it was easy to see the difference in arrow weights. I would say with each set up you need to play with it to see what yeilds the best trade off. I discovered that with my bow between 400 and 450 grns gives me a good balance of speed and momentum. If I go much heavier I don't seem to gain that much in penitration or impact energy compared to a lighter one. I just lose speed is all. Keep in mind I did these tests with a 3-D target, so you will only get so much penitration any way with a specific set up. I was also looking closely at how hard the arrows seemed to hit the target. You know, like how much it moved when hit. I have no way of really measuring it. I have a few theories and ideas for a device to do it, just haven't messed around with making one.

Any way, I discovered that you can go too far in either direction and get diminishing results. If I went really light my speed increased, but my penitration went down some and there was noticably less momentum. If I went to heavy the penitration started to drop off as well, most likely because I was reaching a point where the speed really started dropping off. But the arrows still seemed to have a fair amount momentum to them, unlike the real light ones. But when you found the right combination of speed and weight things were obviously better. There is very noticable difference in how hard a 450 grn arrow hits my target compared to a 300 grn one. That is why I went with a heavier arrow to hunt with. I don't need any numbers to convince me, I have seen it with my own eyes.

I'm not a speed freak or anything either. however I like to get my set ups to shoot somewhere between 220 and 250 fps. I just feel comfortable with that speed range. Faster would be ok I guess, but I don't really need it. If I had a bow capable of it I would most likely use heavier arrows to get my speed back down to 240 or so and reap the benifits of the added knock down power instead.

If I had a 28 or 29 inch draw length and could draw 70 lbs I doubt I would give it much thought. Any thing would work well because I would have enough KE and Momentum that it would be over kill. But at my size I need to pay closer attention to what works best with my set up.

I really want to learn traditional archery, but I doubt I would ever hunt with it. For one I don't think I would ever trust my abilitties enough, and two I'm not really the type to make things harder for myself. I know your the opposite, more power to you for it, but that just isn't me. Darn lazy kids! huh

Paul

Bigpapascout

not at all considering I am shooting a 260 grain Speed pro Max arrow from a 70# bow.

trevwill

Ok seems that almost everone got quickly side tracked. I should have been more specific. 79# and 30 draw. I appreciate the replies guys, thanks.

Arthur P

AMO recommended minimum arrow weight chart shows 532 grains for 79 pounds, 30" draw and speed cams. 5 grains per pound for your setup is 395 grains, but I think holding to 5 grains per pound on dang near 80 pounds of draw weight at your draw length is the same as poking your finger in the eye of fate. The bow might not blow up, but you won't get much service life out of it.

If you intend to buy one or two new bows every year anyway, then carry on. (Note to self: do not buy used bows from trevwill!) If you need it to last several years, then I'd definitely suggest going to at least 450 grains of arrow weight.