Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Heres a test question. What has better penatration, carbon or alum? I have always thought that carbon gives you better speed and flatter trajectory but in the end you lose some penatration. The arrow just doesnt retain the kinectic energy like a heavier mass alum arrow would. And to be honest, I have personaly noticed the difference after I switched to carbon. I got better trajectory, but have had issues with blow throughs on deer and have considered going back to my old standby...2317"s with 100 grain brdhead.( I shoot a 38" arrow...596grns finished with this setup). Those telephone poles gapped my pins aliitle more but blew though a deer like a knife through butter.... Here is when I got confuzed. Just read Bowhunting Q&A in the recent NAHC mag, in there a dude is asking about using carbon for bear. I'm sitting on the throne thinking that I would want to use alum, and a cut on impact 125 grain broadhead to get the most penatration on those thick buggers. Well the "expert" agrees with my philosiphy up to the arrow. He recommends USING a carbon arrow for MORE penatration. What gives? I figure there is alot of experience within these walls of this site, so I ask you guys to give me the truth. Whats the answer?:eek: P.S. I know I cant spell.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

All things being equal you'll get better penetration using carbon. But all things aren't always equal. The general reason to use carbons is to gain more speed--lighter arrow. BUT, these days there are carbon arrows that weigh as much or more than comparable aluminum. To this end carbon arrows being stiffer, they recover from any kind of paradox quicker and get more of that mass right behind the broadhead, thus carrying more momentum into the hit. In choosing such arrows you'll gain the added momentum and still have an arrow that is less likely to bend or break upon impact with bone, or any obstruction when practicing. And th slightly smaller diameter means a bit less friction also.

Does this help any?

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

It depends.....Speed and toughness go to the carbons. A similar weighted carbon will always be tougher than the similar weight alum. To get similar toughness from the alum, you go with the heavy alum, defeating the advantage of the speed. Then there is this consistancy thing. Many, including many on this site, have had MUCH better results regarding consistant spine from alum. You can get good consistancy from high quality carbons, or alum/carb/comp (ACC), but they are heavier and expensive.

It also depends on your intended use. If on the 3D course, where many arrows slam the same spot and yardage is critical, go with good quality carbons or ACC. If shooting indoor spots, speed or arrows smacking is no issue, go with with good aluminums. You can get a bigger diameter shaft to cut a few more lines, for a decent price. For hunting, well, that debate will rage forever. Light, heavy, fast, slow, carbon, alum, expand, cut to tip, trocar style. That becomes much a matter of personal preference.

Bottom line is play around and suit them to your intended game. One perk is alum, even the best ones made, are about half the cost of the high end carbons, so it is easier to play with different combos.

JMAC

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Read Dr. Ashby's arrow lethality study here and make up your own mind.

If I was after bear or anything else bigger than a deer, I'd use the 2317. OR a carbon arrow that has been weighted to equal the heft of the 2317. In fact, I'd put my money on the weighted carbon to penetrate slightly better than the aluminum due to the smaller shaft diameter and less friction. Or, I'd use one of the carbon/glass composite arrows, my favorite of which is the CX Terminator Select. Good weight without having to add extra weights, and a small diameter.

When it comes to shooting a living creature with an arrow, I do not want to gamble that I can get enough penetration to make for a quick kill. I KNOW heftier arrows will do the job. Flat trajectory is nice on the 3D range, but I shoot lots of shots on the 3D range I'd never consider ethical in a real hunting situation. If the critter is far enough that I have to worry about trajectory, it's too far away to shoot with a bow, plain and simple.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Thanks guys..maybe my penatration problem is the fact I use Wasp SST 100 grain and the inital impact to open uses up some of the energy. Something for me to consider..just don't want to go back to my old problem of broadhead plane that I fixed by going to expandables in the first place.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

If you keep everything equal when testing penetration such as weight, broadhead, fletching type, shaft length, bow being used, draw weight, etc the carbon arrow will always out penetrate the aluminum arrow.

Carbon resists flexing better and recovers from flexing faster thus concentrating the arrows energy in more of a straight line at impact, it also stabilizes from flexing after the shot faster than aluminum, is most always skinnier causing less air friction to retain down range speed and also causes less friction inside the animal.

Get yourself some of the excelent fixed blade brosdheads that are ont he market today, Slick tricks are now my favorite broadhead and about the absolute toughest on the market today. Some other great heads would be the G5 montec, NAP nitron, Steel force, Magnus stingers, Wasp bullets, American Sonic.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Planing is usually due to using cheap, poorly made broadheads, or the wrong spine arrow, or crooked arrows (and not all carbons are straight, nor do they remain straight - contrary to that 'carbons are either straight or broken' urban legend), or insufficient fletching for the size broadhead being shot, or broadheads that aren't mounted straight and concentric with the arrow, or shooting a bow that isn't properly tuned, or shakey shooting form, or a combination of any or all those points.

To top it off, the faster the arrow is flying, the more any of those problems you might have are magnified.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Well said Art.

djd, when you went to expandable heads you didn't get rid of the planing problem. You just covered it up. Gaining the knowledge and understanding it, you should be able to get a good fixed blade head to fly well. It all comes down to having the properly matched equipment (mostly arrow spine for the bow) and knwoing how to tune your equipment to get it all right. This often takes time and patience, especially if you are a novice, but where do you think some of us got our knowledge? It just depends on how interested you are in archery.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Well cant say I didnt learn somthing. One thing i would like to piont out is the broadhead plane problem was very specific. In other words, I did try a few things...changed from a thicker wall to a stiffer spine..same problem, changed from 3" to 4" vanes..same rpoblem, tried fletching..same problem. I even went and found true center of my arrows and used a roller to check for staigtness..same problem. My bow was checked out a few times by the local shop and they found nothing wrong. I could shoot filed pionts and they grouped great..in fact i robin hooded three and used to have to carry a 35mm cansitor of nocks during practice because I would drive nocks off. But when it came to fixed blade practice...the arrows would group into the size of a quater or less and they were ALWAYS 3 inches high and left of the bullseye. Oh yeah, almost forgot...I even tried those disks that fit over the blades that was supposed to remove the planing effect from the blades...same thing happened and yes the blades were directly in line with the vanes. I had a buddy make up three arrows of left hand heliciol...they just flew like crap. I have been down the road of trying fixed blades, I have o boxed of all kinds of brands, they all did the same thing. I would LOVE to shoot a fixed blade, the worst I shot were Thunderheads. Maybe I try again. I know of one deer that I didnt have a problem with penatration on though. See pic, got this dude the weekend after gun season ended here in Delaware.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

What you're describing is NOT planing. Planing is where the arrow starts out straight and then veers off course, usually at random. Your arrows are obviously shooting straight and consistent to the same point of impact. The point of impact is just different from field points to broadheads. All you gotta do is sight in the broadheads.

Some guys would say you need to raise your nockset and maybe tweak the rest to the right to get both points of impact together. I don't necessarily agree with that. A bow that's properly tuned with broadheads doesn't always group them together with field points. A bow that's properly tuned with field points doesn't always group them together with broadheads.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Beautiful deer there DJ , I would say some of your problem is from inadiquate fletching . 3 inch vanes has no place on an arrow with fixed heads . 5 inch offset feathers would serve you beter . It will make a huge diferance . If you are a left hand archer ,hold the bow with your right hand , then the problem may have to do with nocking point and cabel garud toqure , if you are a right hand archer , hold the bow with your left hand , then maybe hand toqure is an issue , Do you grip the bow with your fingers wraped arround the grip ? if so , that maybe part of your problem .

Ive never seen a 38" arrow , man those must be a pain to carry thru the woods ;)

As far as the cabon vs alluninum thing , ive never seen a pure carbon that was as consistant as a pure alluminum shaft , and accuracy is my first concern as far as hunting goes . If you cant hit hem where you need to all the penitration in the world wont matter . I use beman matrix shafts myself a alluminum shaft covered in carbon , similar to the acc shafts , and if I want to shoot a fixed head I like 5" feathers stearing them .

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

My buddy put a carbon through both shoulders of a 300 # black bear.;) They work:)

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

So what should you do in that situation? If you sight you pins to your broadheads than how would you practice between hunts? I actually considered getting another sight and use it for the field pionts and then switch for hunting. Just seemed to be a pain in the butt to do that.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Jsut like practicing with a rifle. You sight it in to hit X inches high at 100 yards and you know that is where the holes should be. Move your sight to the impact of the broadheads and you know that your field tips will be hitting X distance low and right.

Before I did that though I would move up my nocking point 1/32nd of an inch (about the diameter of your serving) at a time and move your rest about 1/32nd on inch at a time and see if that gets them hitting in the same spot. It doesn't take much at all to cure that problem. Make sure that you only fix one at a time. Either move the nock and get it hitting vertically where it should be or move the rest and get them hitting horrizontally where they should be before doing the other.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Dont forget shaft diameter.:eek: Keep that equal also and see if the carbon penetrates better.;)

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Thanks for all the help, gots some ideas to play with now. I pretty sure that this will end up a nock/rest issue if i start playing with it. I am sure it is not riser tourqe because that was the first thing I was taught when a started shooting ...NOT to grip the bow. Just out of curiuosity..what do you fletching shooters do in the rain? I dont me mist or drizzle, I mean staying on stand waiting thru a downpour. One of the reasons that I went back to 4" vanes was because the teflon powders and stuff didnt work very well. Come on give me the secret!:D

P.S. ijimmy...brain fart in typin' 32" arrow!

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

BOWFANATIC, you can't compare carbon with aluminum by maintaining a constant shaft diameter because carbons do NOT have the same diameter. That's one thing that carbon has on it's side. Most hunting shafts are .294" or there abouts. Oh, there are a few that are 21/64" to 23/64", but they are meant for target and 3D.

djd, I know what you are talking about with the feathers and rain, but I usually figure that if it's raining hard enough to "ruffle" my feathers then I wouldn't ethically make any shot due to possibility of a poor blood trail. I know ther are times when ya get caught out there, but those times are rare. In that case my feathers can lay down if they so desire. I tune my bow/arrow combination so minutely that I can shoot broadheads on bare shafts out to 30 yards. This is just for tuning purposes, but it's still nice to have confidence in the setup.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

The carbon arrow are great for 3-D shoots where you are shooting at extended yardage for score. You can be off a little in yardage estimation and still hit the vitals. In a real hunting situation, you are seldom shooting over 35 or 40 yards. A light weight aluminum arrow will impact within a fraction of a second of the high speed carbon arrow, but will retain considerably more kinetic energy. To put it into perspective, shoot a deer with a 6mm remington with an 80 grain bullet at a speed around 3,200 fps. Now shoot your next deer with a 375 H&H mag at the same yardage with a 270 grain bullet at 2,800 fps. No comparison, right! That's my opinion. I'll use a carbon for competition where a matter of 3 yards at long shots will make a big difference on impact. When it comes to hunting, an ultra lite aluminum shaft is my choice. With no fear of carbon fibers contaminating the meat.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Sniper, you just made everybody's day. Comapring a 6mm to a .375Mag. You gotta be kidding, right? Just like shooting light vs. heavy arrows for deer. It just doesn't matter. You hit them in the vitals and the deer is just as dead. This is really a stupid comparison. The 6mm is better suited for deer sized game due to it's better expanding bullet. The .375 ibullet is built heavier for heavier game, and will blow through a deer without having a chance to expand due to it's heavy bullet construction. But, this doesn't matter either.

How come we Americans always think more is better? Bigger is better? Because we have stupid, preconceived notions about everything, very little PRACTICAL knowledge, and closed minds.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

BG. Sure I'm kidding about using a 375 for deer. Glad you enjoyed it. But the new generation of "Bow Hunters" think that speed is the ticket. You know the ones I'm talking about. They spend a small fortune on carbon arrows that they can brag to the guys at the club that they are shooting a 300 fps. bow. Then the same guy wonders why the bow sounds like a screen door slamin, the limbs crack or let go and there are constantly tuning the bow and replacing strings and cables. A good shot from a "tuned bow" that is quiet, forgiving and stays tuned from season to season without repairs is far better than a bow need constant attention. As far as I'm concerned, carbon arrows are junk for hunting situations along with the mechanical broadheads that were derived since the arrow will not tune with the light weight carbons. I'll match a quality aluminum arrow to any of the carbons in a true hunting situation and I also think that word is finally getting around to many other die hard bow hunters.:D

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Carbon or aluminum...if your bow is well tuned then you will have pass throughs no matter what if you don't hit bone. I believe practice, placement and sharp broadheads are more important than arrow material.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Comparing guns and archery , does not work , they kill in diferant ways . Guns , by hydralic shock , and archery by cutting and bleeding out . The most important thing is accuracy , as most bows today create enough energy to passthru , or penitrate our north american game , with a deadly sharp broadhead . If you are not afraid of the sharpness of your broadheads , they are not sharp enough . Now I would not go after moose with a 50 lb bow , but I bet there as some who would , and if they know their equipment and limitations , probably have sucess at it .

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Sniper, who you calling a speed freak? Wanna meet in the alley and settle this? Seriously, I am one of those speed freaks, but I don understand that a bow must be whisper quiet and very user friendly (easy to draw) when hunting. I always look for that compromise between speed and quiet, with the edge going to quiet. I am coming to the realization the last couple years that speed for most hunting situations is worried about too much. You just don't see much difference in trajectory between 240fps and 280fps at 20-25 yards. And I have bows that do both these speeds.

From a personal standpoint my bow doesn't stay tuned from year to year. I rarely have a bow much longer than that, but if I do then I'm always playing around with it anyway. I change things often to see what new and what works, and how it works with what results. I'm constantly shooting my bows and tuning and tinkering. Lody Be, I had 8 different drop away rests on my new bow this year just to try them. When crunch time came and I wanted a hunting setup I just bolterd on the old "tried and true" Star Hunter. You know---KISS. And another thing I usually do that is opposite of what many do is that I shoot all year long, and when it gets down to hunting I tuen my bow DOWN a few pounds. I may be a speed freak, but I'm not a KE dude. These are deer we hunt here, not cape buffalo.

Anyway, now that I know you were kidding about the .375 thing I can relax. I also notice you live pretty close to me. Something like 30 miles. Do you belong to Hemlock? Do you shoot the 3D Winter League?

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Hi BG. I guess I'm a bit old fashion. I used the same bow, an Oregon, for over 15 years. One string change, one cable change with yearly R&R on axles, cams and bushings. Now I shoot a Hoyt Protec with the XL limbs. Like 46 3/4" axle to axle because I still enjoy shoot fingers. I really enjoy shooting with the release shooters and their door slamers Yes, I do belong to Hemlock. I guess its about 26 years now and will see you at Big Buck in a few weeks. ;)
Jap.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

When talking about shooting at foam targets or 3d targets , then yes , because of shaft diameter , the nod goes to carbons for penetration.

When we're talking about hunting it's a whole different ball game. That same shaft , wether small diameter carbon or larger diameter aluminum , now has a razor sharp broadhead on the front opening a path for that shaft , eliminating the diameter (path of least resistance) difference.

I've seen some major penetration differences between fast carbons and slower aluminums on hogs and the nod always went to the aluminums.

I personally shoot both , but I feel too many people today are steered away from aluminums for what I consider to be b.s. reasons.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Or you could do as Dr. Ashby has done in the past and insert an aluminum arrow inside of an aluminum arrow to keep the OD to a minimum.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Doug, really I tend to agree with you that some of the friction is negated due to the blades opening th path of entry. I think, though that tuning so that the arrow's momentum is stright behine that broadhead giving a better driving force. The number of blades doing the cutting, the weight of the arrow. The thickness of muscle where you hit, the angle of entry. There are so many variables that one can never get a picture of what happens in the real world. 3D targets are not flesh. Gel is not flesh. It's an imperfect scenerio.

I know I have shot deer years ago with aluminum producing 40lbs/ft of energy and a few years ago with carbon producing 39lbs/ft of energy and the results were very similar. All passthroughs with the arrow not going very far afterwards. But how far does it have to go afterwards?

I've also shot deer with both arrows and hit solid bone. Results, again, being about the same. The deer runs off with a slight flesh wound. I've shot deer with arrows weighing 300gr and blown right through. I've shot them with arrows weighing 450gr and not blown through. There are just no absolutes when in the hunting world.

I do often times shoot aluminum during our winter 3D league (outdoors). Those 2212's pull loads easier than most carbon out of McKenzies. Rineharts are another matter. They're a dream.

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

And right there is one of the very bestest reasons for shooting aluminum!! Especially if you've got a bad back. I have hurt myself, on several different ocassions, wrestling with McKenzie targets trying to pull carbon arrows. And you don't even have to rub magical ointments and unguents on aluminums before shooting them to get 'em to come out.:)

RE: Carbon VS. Alluiminum
 

Arthur P, you are absolutely right. NO LUBE NEEDED. And I know about the struggling with Carbons. I DO have a bad back. I've shot with guys shooting Korean Express and it takes two to pull the arrows. Then they grab hold of my 2212's. I almost always get some remark like "Man, I'll pull your arrows all day long". There's that much difference.

I'm shooting Vapor 23 Speeds right now while playing with the bow. Getting the most speed out of it and all. Man I gotta back down to 47lbs to get ASA legal at 288fps. Anyway, my aluminums weigh a bit more and will be slower, but our winter league says nothing over 35 yards so it's kinda a mute point between 305 and 295fps. And this is just for fun anyway. They give out pins to the first 3 places in each class but I just give mine to the kids---when I get one. And lighting up some kid"s face is more fun than winning it for myself.